I used ELSAWin to get the diagrams. Give me the Engine Codes and VINs of the cars you are using and I can get the correct wiring diagrams.
I used ELSAWin to get the diagrams. Give me the Engine Codes and VINs of the cars you are using and I can get the correct wiring diagrams.
Dorkage, the VIN number of my 2007 VW Passat is: WVWLK73C97E009332 ... the engine code for the original 2.0T engine is: BPY. I'll have to see if I can get the VIN number for the 2008 Jetta that the ECU and/or engine came out of ... but the engine code for the Jetta 2.5L is: CBU.
Low_passat had emailed me a PDF wiring diagram for the 2007 Passat 2.0T ... and I've already got all of the chassis ECU pin locations / colors ... and I've verified that they do correspond with my car ... so I've got that.
I really just need the diagrams for the 2008 2.5 Jetta.
I'm supposed to get my Bentley Manual today.
Well, I'm about ready to get back to this project. I've got all the wiring diagrams that I need ... it's just a matter of sorting them out and matching up the wires ... on paper first. I discovered (from the Bentley Manual) that I DO in fact have the T121 plug on the 2008 Jetta ECU.
All the VW ECU's have two plugs ... a chassis wiring harness plug, and an engine wiring harness plug. On the 2007 Passat ... the chassis plug is a 94-pin plug, hence it's labeled T94 ... the engine wiring harness plug is a 60-pin plug, hence it's labeled T60. But the smaller plugs on the 2008-09 Jetta they label ALL as T121 ... with 121 pins COMBINED for both chassis side and engine side. The chassis harness side consists of pins 1 through 81 ... the engine harness side consists of pins 82 through 121.
While I've had to work on other projects lately, I've had time to sort out the wiring on paper at home. I also sent my ECU off to have the immobilizer disabled ... they did it the same day the received it, and sent it back to me.
The company from eBay that did the ECU work is VARParts and they specialize in VW / Audi custom parts, servicing, and restoration. Not sure where they're located, but their phone number is:857-540-5060.
I hope to get back to the wiring by the end of this week or next ... I'll keep you posted.
Well, I'm finally (REALLY) getting back to this project. After a Hyundai Tiburon engine replacement and a Saturn VUE transmission replacement.
Since I last posted here, while I've been working on other cars ... I've been studying wiring diagrams at home ... LOTS of them!
The engine harness was simple ... I used the 2008 Jetta harness that came with the engine. For the chassis harness connections, I used Bentley wiring diagrams and Excel and mapped out all of the pin-outs and wires colors for both my existing 2007 Passat 2.0t chassis harness ... and the 2008 Jetta 2.5 chassis harness plug that I was going to graft on. I matched up all the functions, and what wires need to be spliced with what wires. Then I actually checked the Passat chassis plug and the Jetta chassis plug to verify that the wire colors and pin numbers were correct (I've discovered that wiring digrams are not always correct!). Doing one wire at a time, I've got the Jetta plug spliced onto the Passat harness. I finished that up last week.
I've discovered that there are quite a few wiring differences between the 2.0t and 2.5 cars. For example, the 2007 Passat 2.0t uses no relays to energize the fuel pump, (it uses what's called a Fuel Pump Control Module) nor does it have a return-to-tank fuel system! The result is, I get 90 PSI fuel pressure at the engine! I had to take a trip to the local Pull-a-Part and purchase a fuel pump with both pressure and return lines, a 4.0 Bar (58 PSI) fuel pressure regulator, the J17 and J643 under-dash relay system for the fuel pump ... and ... oh yes ... a 2.5 trunk emblem from a 2004 Nissan Maxima (they're BIGGER than the VW ones!). I trashed the 2.0t emblem.
I've yet to install the Jetta fuel pump and pressure regulator though ... I'm still running 90 PSI.
The other odd thing is ... the dual fuel pump relays cause the fuel pump to run ... when you open the driver's door! (to prime the system I presume).
Got everything wired up the end of last week ... and tried to start it ... NOTHING! After some extensive checking, I found that I had no check-engine light during starting ... a sure sign of ECU issues (yes, the one I paid $60 to have the immobilizer disabled - although I don't think it's anything he did - it may be something I did). After going over all of the wiring extensively (again) I purchased another ECU from the same Pull-a-Part Jetta and installed it. I now had a check-engine light!
THE CAR STARTS UP! (but obviously quickly dies because of the immobilizer).
I may just take the car to the local VW dealer and have them program the ECU Immobilizer ... but first I've got to modify the existing fuel system with the Jetta regulator and fuel pump ... I should only have 58 PSI at the engine. The Passat also uses two ECU relays for some reason, J271 and J670 ... probably because the turbo engine had so many other electrical parts ... electric coolant pump, HPFP, wastegate bypass valve, etc. I've got to verify that I actually need the J670 relay, and what it actually drives.
Once I've double and triple checked everything (I'm still not sure the fuel pump is wired properly) ... I'll reinstall the ECU and take it to the dealer.
After this project, I can see I'm going to have to get some computer software to read this new computerized stuff now-a-days.
My goal with this project is to have EVERYTHING work in the car just like from the factory ... with NO check-engine lights. This is obviously turning into a LOT more than I was expecting!
I REALLY am hoping to get this car where I can actually DRIVE it before the end of the month (of course I said that a month ago too)!
I'll keep you all posted!
I admire the commitment! Sounds like your on the home stretch.
B6 Passat 3.6 & 4motion Resource Thread
Now: 2008 VW Passat 3.6 4motion Wagon, 2013 Fiat 500 Sport
Then: 1987 Volvo 745GLE, 1989 Volvo 740GL, 1994 Volvo 940T, 1995 Infiniti G20, 2000 VW Passat 1.8T, 2001 VW Jetta Wolfsburg Ed (x2), 2004 VW Golf TDI, 2006 Jetta TDI
I usually browse but i had to join to post this! Ths effort is VY usefull! TY & Kudos. Am awaiting any wiring crossover diagrams you post to adapt the diffrent parts and such.
Just had our 08 Passat with its 2.0T CCTA do the dreaded timing thing and throw a valve, Ugh! ruined engine! Getting a replacement is way too expensive, HOWEVER swapping in a 2.5L IS the answer if I keep it! bcs the 2.5's are way more reliable for a DD wout the 2.0T probs as we've found out AND so way more affordable! So I am going to be duplicating this effort prob as the year warms up. Also I called your ECU guy, very nice and knowledgaable and local to me, TY. He reccm getting the ECU and the instrument cluster and key cylinder and keys with teh engine. Also, after this happened, i googled and joined another class action lawsuit against VW who's failed to fix the dreaded cam chain tensioner issue for years and this option is open to anyone who experiences this issue as well, just google it..
Great thread! I'm not terribly familar with the 2.5L.
Last edited by pastacor; 04-01-2017 at 01:20 PM.
2008 Grey Passat Komfort Wagon - 2.0T FSI
Yes, pastacor and pgats ... the 2.0t HPFP issue isn't just an occasional headache in my opinion ... I believe it's a basic design flaw with the 2.0t FSI engine. In spite of replacing cam followers, updated VW cams, changing oil regularly, etc, etc, etc ... it seems like a reoccurring problem. That's why I didn't want to mess with it ... plus the extreme expense.
Apparently, just the physical mechanical pressure between the parts is simply too much ... no matter what fix you do. Even if you replace the follower, you're eventually going to destroy the cam lobe. They've remedied this apparently on the newer 2.0t TSI engine by going to a 4-lobe cam instead of 3-lobe for the HPFP. But I've heard that even the 2.0t TSI has other issues (just as you mentioned pgats ... I assume yours is a TSI).
I don't mind buying cars with basic design flaws ... providing there's a way to remedy the problem permanently.
I've fixed a few Pontiac Vibes with the Toyota 1.8L engine that had problems with oil consumption and hence, engine failure if you didn't keep an eye on oil levels. The junk yards are full of these failed Toyota engines. The problem was caused by piston rings sticking in the groves because of carbon build up, but also because Toyota decided to reduce spring pressure of the rings against the cylinder walls (with their 1ZZ-FE and 2ZZ-GE engines) ... why? ... to reduce friction and increase fuel mileage.
The fix was to drill out the oil return holes in the pistons, clean out the ring groves, and switch to a good brand of after-market piston ring that had normal spring pressure. Voila, the problem was solved! But I've heard of no (cheap) fix for the 2.0t FSI problem (I even looked for a high pressure ELECTRIC fuel pump ... but no dice).
I really do hope to have the car running this week. I've installed a 2007 Jetta 2.5L fuel pump ($25 from my local Pull-a-Part and it bolts right in) along with the 4.0 bar pressure regulator ... now I've got the required 58 PSI at the engine. I've got a couple engine codes that I've got to sort out (rear 02 sensor, IAT sensor, and the Leak Detection Pump aren't working) ... but nothing that will keep the engine from running. I should have read the codes from this car before I took it apart to determine what issues were already present.
Pgats, the only problem with getting the key cylinder and immobilized from the Jetta is ... they use a normal key ... not like the Passat. So I don't know what would be involved in switching that all out. Plus the Passat doesn't even have keyed door locks.
I've tried to use as much from the Passat as I could ... the instrument cluster, the ignition switch, the starter, the alternator, electronic accelerator pedal, exhaust system from the down pipe back with 02 sensor, the AT drive plate and torque converter, and even the transmission oil cooler located in front of the battery. We'll see how all that stuff works out once I can actually put some miles on the car.
By the way, if you pick up a 2.5L 5 Cyl. engine ... make sure it's maybe 2007 or later, I've heard that the early ones sometimes had timing chain issues when they began to rack up the miles. (although some believe that may be due to engine sludge and not changing the oil regularly).
I'll keep you posted hopefully later this week.
Pls post your wiring crossover diagrams if you can.
What part of the country are you located in?
Appreciate all the feedback.
To add to this for anyone who gets into same mess with this engine, yes it is a TSI that was kept up meticulously.
After googling around quite a bit, after the failure occured, it turns out that anyone who has this problem can join the class action, just find your closest attorneys that are involved in this, there are quite a few even if this matter hasn't received as much press as the TDi recall. Incidentally we did have a 2010 TDI Jetta that we luckily sold back to the dealer as well in that recall, so the legal process does work given patience.
Now as far as replacing the failed engine with SAME engine, JUST as you pointed out, it doesnt make sense, both from economic as well as longetivity-expected continued reliability perspective from how it looks to me. They are exceedingly expensive because of the demand AND it JUST makes sense to get a much more dependale 2.5 at a much more reasonable cost. teh problem is the swap details as being depicted in this very valuable thread, IMHO ..
As far as a later than 2007 2.5, yes again just as you pointed out, from the forums and from talking to local VW-Audi folk, i have found that the earlier 2.5 did have some problems with the timing chains as well so the 2007+ are the way to go when seeking a replacement and these can easily be found for less than a thou at many local salvage yards.
Pls let us know how this is proceeding , TY
Right pgats, I was told today by a local shop that deals in modified VW's only, that the 2.5 5-cyl. is usually not even considered by most VW performance enthusiasts ... most would much rather have the 1.8t and 2.0t engines. For that reason the 2.5's are fairly cheap. I purchased my 2010 2.5L engine with 70,000 mi. for $50! ... although it had no intake, throttle body, or accessories!
Yesterday I found out that the VW dealer cannot program the immobilizer either ... so their mechanic sent me to a place 20 minutes from me in Akron called "Haus of Dub" ... the guy says they do all kinds of engine swaps (they're putting a 2.5L 5-cyl. into an late 1990's Audi right now). He said he can disable the immobilizer, he's done quite a few of them.
I went to him because he's local ... and I just want to get this car running!
I've also been communicating with Doug at "Varpartsma" from Andover, Massachusetts ... (they did the immobilizer delete on the first ECU that turned out to be "dead") ... I really don't think it's anything they did, and if the guy in Akron fails to be able to do it, I'll send both the second ECU and the original ECU back to Varpartsma to check them out and possibly find the problem.
While I was at the VW dealership, I asked them about the 12-year rust-through warranty (I didn't know about it when I replaced the rusted hood and drivers front fender). Whenever I get it running and sorted out, I'll take it back to them to have them assess it to see if my car qualifies.
And yes, when I get this car all done (and working correctly) I'll post all the details of the parts I used, and the wiring diagrams and modifications.
I'll keep you posted.
well today i found some info that unfortunately for myself and living in the state i am in, .. kinda kills my possibility of doing a 2.5L swap into my failed 08 Passat, It comes down to legalities and emmisions in my state, not the functionality.
Some backgound. In state of MA, we have a 15 yr emmisions waiver, so in present year, 2002 and earlier, vehicles get a safety inspection (like our 01 A4 B5 Audi, our 02 Jetta ALH TDi at 300k mi and still going strong, and our 94 Yota 4WD Pickup) . If a Check Eng lite is on and it is emmisions related the car still gets stickered, anotherwords it passes inspection for the coming year and the owner gets to drive it legally according to our RMV (it's called here the Registry of Motor Vehicles, not the more commonly referred to as the DMV).
IF you have an emmisions related failure in a vehicle that is newer tahn 2002 and to get an annual exemption (exemptions are only good for the year and the following year have to be re-applied for yet again) to that you have to go thru an exemption procedure which is very difficult and near impossible according to my own direct experience with my previous 2010 Jetta TDi that ended up getting bought back by dealer with the whole diesel recall mess.
Well before starting down my intended route of this intended swap i pre-emptively called the contact i had made within the RMV procedural world, (during my 2010 TDi Jetta attempt to get a temp-annual RMV inspection exemption), to get their official take on this intended swap in my state. The verdict: "NON-compliant drive train" which puts the cabosh on this at "this" time.
More details: The car WOULD (initially) pass inspection at any inspection station as long as NO check engine lite was lit AND as long as the ECU matched the chassis VIN, that's all doable and with the resources posted in this thread, HOWEVER after that, upon review the state computerized system would catch it and flag it and the owner (me) would receive a nice letter in the mail telling me i have an UNsupported and NON compliant drivetrain the in the vehicle and thus I would be notified to take it off the road or have the registration cancelled on me and to turn in my plates.
1.) Wait 6 more years & hang on to the car until after the car merits its own 15 yr lookback emmisions exmption bcs it'll be more than 15 yrs old then AND at that time, swap in any engine i like bcs it'll no longer be scrutinized nor flagged
2.) Swap in a supported Drivetrain, these Passats also came with the 3.6L 6cyl which IS a supported drivetrain, i looked at swapping in a 3.6L 6 cyl (prefer it over a 2.0t for reliability sakes) and even reached out to Haus of Dub since you mentioned they do all types of swaps, and Andy promptly replied that it was possible indeed, BUT here are the exact words:
"The 3.6 VR6 has its own bolt pattern. the VR6 has been that way since 1991...and always had its own transmissions. 2.2 10v, 2.8 12v, 2.8 24v, 3.2 24v and the 3.6 24v. All the other engines i4, i5, v6, v8, v10 share are similar with subtle difference, but mostly interchangeable.
to swap the 3.6 into that 2.0t car would need the full engine harness/ecu/exhaust/cooling system."
Thsi was very usefull knowledge, and i am gratefull to both you and Andy, however due to the extent of the work, for me is unfeasible. and also needing a donor vehicle, the 3.6L themselves are half the cost of the 2.0t engines tho (around here the 3.6L used lomileage are like $1400) , but JUST the engines themselves, here we are talking abotu a whole donor vehicle..
3.) Rather than swapping in the above 3.6 6cyl, IF i elect to fix the car put in a direct replacement 2.0t, so back to square 1 yet again.
Feel like those bumper car toys that get sent back to the beggining time & again.
So do i keep the car? .. Well to be part of this current VW class action (with the blown engine due to the cam chain tensioner defect), which i signed up for with my most local attorney that is representing the eastern MA state plaintiffs, SOBRAN LAW in Hingham, MA (Thomas P Sobran in Hingham, MA if anyone needs to also sign up), I have to be in possesion of the car to be a participant. Now weighing my former experience when VW did buy back our last VW, I'd say its a pretty good bet, SO do i now keep the car as a driveway ornament or have it as a driveable car for the foreseeaable future?
If I want to make it a driveable car and keep it on the road for next few years it looks like the 2.0t swap in yet again is the most feasible route, even though I do not like this engine as mentioned prior.
I am looking at NOT getting a used engine at between 2500-3000+plus (these pwesly 2.0t 's they go for a premium around here) and have contacted instead www.qualitygermanautoparts.com in CA, their NEW 2.0t longblocks are $2500 with out the $300 core and the $350 or so in freight.
I am still pondering teh possibilities though and may opt to just keep my new "driveway ornament" for now though .. Info for all here ..
Wow, leave it to "big brother" to quench the American "engine swapping spirit"! Sure glad I live where I do, they have no such crazy laws around here.
"Common sense" (of which the government usually possesses very little of) would tell you that ... they SHOULD allow a car to be legally licensed and driven, providing it meets the emissions requirements for that year vehicle (which I believe a 2.5L powered Passat WOULD). But alas .. that would be "common sense"!
pgats, I would check into that whole thing some more ... there's GOT to be some type of waiver or something for those types of vehicles. I'm sure there are TONS of modified Porsche's, Corvettes, big-block Nova's, dune buggies, and Mustangs on the roads there ... legally. When I've talked to the local BMV here in Ohio I've found ... if you talk to three different people ... you'll get three different answers!
I still haven't heard anything from Haus of Dub about the "Immobilizer disable" on my ECU ... for some reason, this apparently is a tough one! If he can't do it for some reason, Doug at Varpartsma told me to send him back the original ECU and the ECU that will start the car, and he'll look into it. That may be the route I'll have to go.
On a good note ... I just sold the remaining 2.0t FSI engine parts on Craigslist. I ended up getting a total of about $700 for all the parts. In my opinion that's pretty good for a blown up engine ... with a junk head and junk cams and junk oil pump! I only paid $600 for the whole car!
I should have titled this thread "The Immobilizer from Hell"!
It's really frustrating to have a car completely done ... AND running ... and yet not be able to drive it! I would bet my bottom dollar that Immobilizers have thwarted legitimate owners FAR more times (and cost them FAR more $$$$$), because of replacement ECU's, batteries going completely dead (I've heard that can activate an immobilizer), or other such electrical gremlins ... than they have thwarted REAL car thieves!
I promise you, one way or another (with the Lord's help), I'll get this car running!
hi again and yes, pls do keep us up as you make progress on that final issue.
Ok, some updates on the NON common sense of the political beauracracy in my state in these matters, and BTW, very well put..
About our so called, RMV, yes you are correct. I called the person i did bcs he heads the most local to me exemption inspection station, in other words, if you take your vehicle to an inspection station and it fails.. well, let me cut-paste soem excerpts,
If you have made repairs to your private passenger vehicle or OBD-equipped mobile home and it still failed its emissions and smog check, you may be eligible to apply for a waiver. here is a "brief excerpt" from this state's "political beauracracy that reigns in our state" in this matter:
Pertaining to Waivers, i have extracted this:
Repairs had to have been made by a registered emissions repair technician.
The repair costs, including materials and labor, must meet the following threshold:
Vehicles 5 years old and newer: $880.
Vehicles 6 to 10 years old: $780.
Vehicles 10 years old and older: $680.
The emissions control system on your vehicle must be intact and free of any evidence of tampering.
Your vehicle must have successfully completed its safety inspection within the last 60 days.
The OBD system, or on-board computer, on your vehicle must:
Successfully connect and communicate with the station's computer.
Have completed its own self-checks of your vehicle's emissions control system.
Not have any diagnostic code troubles showing, including for catalytic converter failure, engine misfire, or energy storage (hybrid vehicles only).
To apply for a smog and emissions testing waiver, you must do the following:
Schedule an appointment to complete an evaluation with the "Motorist Assistance Center" MAC (you must be pre-qualified based on the requirements listed above before an appointment will be set).
Bring all required documents as described in the eligibility section above to your appointment.
If you are APPROVED for a waiver, you will be given a waiver authorization so that you can receive an inspection sticker from the station that previously failed your vehicle.
If you are NOT approved for a waiver, MAC officials will advise you of your options. Your registration may be suspended by the Massachusetts RMV if you have not been approved for an emissions waiver or successfully completed a retest within 60 days of failing your initial inspection.
Ok, NOW the MAC people it mentions hold the last and deffinitive decision on whom gets to "keep driving" so to speak. Since i already had an established relationship with my top most level MAC official, as mentioned above, taht's whom i turned to, to try and skip all the previous steps, bcs that's whomm would most likely be assigned to my case.
ALso, they were the ones (The MAC center closest to me) that denied me the waiver on the 2010 VW TDi (that we turned back into teh dealer at the end of taht recall thing for us) altho our applied for exemption in that case was more than legitimate and i had qualaified thru all their tests. I got in the middle of a finger pointing session between my state MAC inpsection RMV and VW the mfr.. Like they said, it sounds good on paper but it's very very difficult to actually get the waiver granted altho it's only for a single year and then you go thru their whole thing all over again the next year..
NOW, on the practical side, yes you are correct there are tons of swaps on the road, either 15 yrs old vehicles or more than that, in which case anything goes as long as the safety inpsection passes, OR if newer than the 15yr threshold AND IF "non compliant" as defined by the state's RMV inpsection steps, then they were not caught by the state's post inpsection review (flagged on post screening). Like the RMV MAC contact person told me is taht upon post swap, my 08 Passat would most likely pass the emmisions as long as it passed teh OBD based emmisions requirements and there were no check engine lites lit, that fine, HOWEVER, it wouldnt be flagged until their post review until after the inspection approved sticker had already been granted, another words, i'd be on the road and happily using the car as one of our fam's DD's and we'd receive a "nice notification" from our RMV.. not a nice approach to follow fr what i am getting.. Now practically speaking i know of at least 1 person that flunked the state inspection (passed the safety, flunked the emmisions) and still drives well past their 60day correction period and still has their rejection sticker from last year, no letters received from teh state, however if tehy ever get pulled over they automatically get a fine for expired sticker and get this, a parking clerk (meter person) in any municipality now scans their inspection sticker if they are ever even legally parked in a public street or municipal parking lot, even if tehre's money left in teh meter, they get ticketed for expired sticker from the meter person, meaning you cant leave it parked (even legally) on public streets or lots that the meter people patrol.. which is quite a few living in a dense urban area like around here.. It gets ot be a mess and the best thing is to pass the inspection legally every year, one of the reasons i like having older vehicles that only require a safety inspection to pass..
Well, like i said, i am still mulling this over, however it just doesnt make economic sense for me to spend the money (quite a bit for tehse 2.0t type engines) to put in the same "defective" engine OR take a chance to put in a drivetrain that i may not be able to drive legally based on my loopy state's RMV inspection requirements until this vehicle reaches its automatic exemtiption period in 2023 (6yrs away, too long). Since i'm now enrolled in this class action, and in order to stay enrolled i have to leaglly own the vehicle (in watever condition, even in non repaired condition, meaning driveway ornament), i may opt to just keep it parked and see what happenes on the legal side, like with our 2010, altho we were always driving our 2010..
On teh ECU side, i wonder what has to be done on the programming side to have the ECU report a 2.5 as a 2.0 (or as a 6cyl), another words compliant drivetrains, however i imagine that's getting into risky territory, leagl wise, sh some legal-eagle fr teh state's RMV ever decide to bud in so to speak..
Very interested in how this turns out on the functionality side nontheless.