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    Thread: Are "safety" features making us worse drivers?

    1. Senior Member Metallitubby's Avatar
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      02-15-2017 04:58 PM #51
      Quote Originally Posted by vwtool View Post
      Nearly a decade ago, on a photography forum I belong to, someone asked the question "Do Smart Cameras Make Dumb Photographers?". The consensus was yes, but nobody volunteered to give up their auto focus or image stabilization on a paying gig, either.
      While this is a good example for non-safety-related conversation, I don't see the auto-focus feature protecting people from being smashed into by a 4000lb missile.

    2. 02-15-2017 04:59 PM #52
      Quote Originally Posted by AZGolf View Post
      Note that I said US airlines, which neither of your examples is. Also - those are pretty much the ONLY major crashes in many years, and almost everyone survived Asiana 214 anyway.

      People are crashing cars because they're not paying attention to driving anymore.
      So it's not a problem until it happens to an American? I can see how we got ourselves into this mess we're currently in.

      My count may be off, but it seems that there were around 134 incidents since Air France 447 significant enough to warrant a wikipedia page:

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o..._aircraft#2017

      Were they all caused by reliance on automation? Certainly not. Were a majority because of that? Probably not even close. But those were far from the ONLY incidents in the last few years.

      And the very American FAA looked recently looked at accidents and incidents as well as over 9,000 Line Operations Safety Audit flights where a trained observer was on board to monitor the flight crew and look for mistakes that could have lead to serious consequences.

      https://www.faa.gov/news/fact_sheets...m?newsId=15434

      Among the findings:
      The Flight Deck Automation Working Group concluded that modern flight path management systems create new challenges that can lead to errors. Those challenges include complexity in systems and in operations, concerns about degradation of pilot knowledge and skills, and integration and interdependence of the components of the aviation system.
      But hey, what does the FAA know about flying?

      Edit: Found an American example for you: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UPS_Airlines_Flight_1354

      The NTSB also found that contributing factors in the accident were: 1) the flight crew’s failure to properly configure and verify the flight management computer for the profile approach...
      Last edited by gr8shandini; 02-15-2017 at 05:06 PM.

    3. Member Triumph's Avatar
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      02-15-2017 05:31 PM #53
      Quote Originally Posted by whiteboy1 View Post
      It's not a great example (too simple, assuming) but think of how a persons behavior behind the wheel in these two scenarios:

      A. Driving with no safety devices and a giant spike on the wheel facing the driver.
      vs
      Aww man you stole my idea! I came up with that years ago! People would be very safe drivers if that spike was ever so gently pressing into their throat.
      -Triumph, the Insult Comic Dog

      I saw this in a movie about a bus that had to speed around the city, keeping its speed over fifty, and if its speed dropped, the bus would explode! I think it was called, "The Bus That Couldn't Slow Down."

    4. Member Triumph's Avatar
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      02-15-2017 05:52 PM #54
      Quote Originally Posted by gr8shandini View Post
      No, there isn't a huge increase in the number of crashes, but there are numerous examples of crashes that happened for precisely this reason. To wit:

      http://99percentinvisible.org/episod...-paradox-pt-1/

      Key quote:

      “We appear to be locked into a cycle in which automation begets the erosion of skills or the lack of skills in the first place and this then begets more automation.”

      If you listen to the podcast it goes into much more detail than the article. Basically, the Air France crash a while back was the result of the pilots not recognizing an aerodynamic stall - something that you learn within your first 2 or 3 flight lessons and consistently practice until you get into the heavies. Recovery should have been automatic.

      See also the Asiana hard landing at SFO. Or some of these:

      http://www.flightdeckautomation.com/...-analysis.aspx

      Just because it doesn't happen often doesn't mean it's not happening at all. And these are people who fly hundreds of hours a year, are routinely quizzed on emergency procedures, and have to pass rigorous simulator checkrides on a regular basis. If they're making a mess of it, what chance does Joe and Jane Sixpack have?
      Good info here. I watch A LOT of "Air Disasters" on Smithsonian, so that makes me an expert. The "Miracle on the Hudson" was pretty much only possible because the pilot was former Air Force, with many more hours of difficult cockpit flying than a regular civilian aviator. Post WW2, the boon in aviation was partly fueled by a large supply of highly trained and experienced WW2 pilots. As the aviation industry increased in size though, and as those WW2 pilots aged, they were inevitably replaced by less skilled civilian aviators. Not that this is bad, but the point remains, when things go to sh*t, having actual skills as a backup is pretty important in aviation.

      I think it's pretty much impossible to argue that driving isn't safer today than ever, and is only getting better because of the technology. But I think we could mitigate the effect of those exceptional circumstances (driving in snow, emergency maneuvering, hell even changing a tire) by INCREASING mandatory education instead of reducing it. Of course there is absolutely zero support for this because we are a nation of idiocrats. Nobody even WANTS to learn how to be self sufficient. "Why should I learn to change a tire, I'll just call someone," is a pretty typical opinion.

      And it'll only get worse as time goes on, because we are breeding a generation of drivers who don't care. Adults complain about the "entitled millenials" who are more interested in piloting their phone than their vehicle. Well, we really have no right to complain because WE MADE THEM THAT WAY.
      Last edited by Triumph; 02-15-2017 at 05:54 PM.
      -Triumph, the Insult Comic Dog

      I saw this in a movie about a bus that had to speed around the city, keeping its speed over fifty, and if its speed dropped, the bus would explode! I think it was called, "The Bus That Couldn't Slow Down."

    5. Member whiteboy1's Avatar
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      02-15-2017 06:08 PM #55
      Quote Originally Posted by Triumph View Post
      Aww man you stole my idea! I came up with that years ago! People would be very safe drivers if that spike was ever so gently pressing into their throat.

      I can't claim to own it myself. I read it in a dusty book from the 70's about crash data and associated expenses.
      Quote Originally Posted by uncleho
      Before you take the tact of denigrating a group, you should empathize with the situation/history and understand the facts. It might not make for great debate on forums, but it helps with personal awareness.
      Quote Originally Posted by Cousin Eddie
      Empathy isn't hard. You don't have to feel what other people feel to be understanding or trust that not everyone has the same perspective.

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      02-15-2017 06:16 PM #56
      Quote Originally Posted by adrew View Post
      And stability control. While arguably it is an enabler of dangerous behavior for some folks, I see it save someone driving aggressively on the highway probably once a month.

      Usually it is something soft with a good bit of power like a Sonata V6. I'll see someone punch it up to 90-100 in the right lane to pass a pack of slower cars, then cut the wheel hard to the left ... I have observed multiple instances where the rear end starts to come around, only to see the car yank itself back straight and avoiding a potentially multi-car accident.
      Chances are that the Sonata driver has gradually escalated thier risky driving because they know he car will attempt to aid them. So they avoided a crash on that day; later on will they continue to avoid crashes by driving at near max traction limits? Did that driver learn a valuable lesson or did it re-enforce the risky driving behavior?

    7. Member Elite_Deforce's Avatar
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      02-15-2017 06:18 PM #57
      Kind of like saying side mirrors make us worse (lazier drivers). I'm going with no.
      Quote Originally Posted by Elite_Deforce View Post
      Panache, bruh.
      Quote Originally Posted by Ernie McCracken View Post
      I don't trust the judgment of anyone who likes black wheels.

    8. Member Jimmy Russells's Avatar
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      02-15-2017 06:29 PM #58
      Obviously we are way safer with these systems

      The OG Russells is back!

      Quote Originally Posted by Sump View Post
      I'm sure a lot of these guys went home after the carwash and played a little hans solo.

    9. 02-15-2017 06:31 PM #59
      Quote Originally Posted by Elite_Deforce View Post
      Kind of like saying side mirrors make us worse (lazier drivers). I'm going with no.
      That's not really the same thing at all. Similar to a backup camera, maybe. But a piece of equipment that makes something that was previously difficult to do easier is much different than automating something easy - but necessary - to the point where most people just don't do it anymore.

      Prime example is the poster above mentioning a driver not checking said side mirrors since they have a little light that tells them if it's "safe" to merge or not. What happens when that sensor fails or they step out in front of an emergency vehicle going much quicker than traffic?

    10. Senior Member AZGolf's Avatar
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      02-15-2017 06:44 PM #60
      Quote Originally Posted by Tdi13golf View Post
      Chances are that the Sonata driver has gradually escalated thier risky driving because they know he car will attempt to aid them. So they avoided a crash on that day; later on will they continue to avoid crashes by driving at near max traction limits? Did that driver learn a valuable lesson or did it re-enforce the risky driving behavior?
      Cite a source, which of course you can't because there is none.

      I've never ridden with any mature adult that said "Hey, I didn't die yesterday, better do 20 over the limit and start weaving aggressively more today!" People under 25? Maybe so, but we all already know that fatalities are way higher for young people and pretty flat from age 26-35 and at their lowest from about 35-55 only moving up significantly above age 65. Above that age, you start to run into a secondary complication, which is that the body is simply more frail and more likely to die in an accident that a younger driver would have survived.

      Bottom line is that I don't buy your unsubstantiated claim that actual mature people suddenly all become lawbreaking reckless drivers more and more every day that they don't get in a wreck. There's no data I know of to support such a claim.

      Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy Russells View Post
      Obviously we are way safer with these systems
      That car wasn't even equipped with automatic braking. Sales people get that stuff wrong all the time.

    11. Member Jimmy Russells's Avatar
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      02-15-2017 06:46 PM #61
      Quote Originally Posted by AZGolf View Post


      That car wasn't even equipped with automatic braking. Sales people get that stuff wrong all the time.
      The OG Russells is back!

      Quote Originally Posted by Sump View Post
      I'm sure a lot of these guys went home after the carwash and played a little hans solo.

    12. Senior Member AZGolf's Avatar
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      02-15-2017 06:51 PM #62
      Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy Russells View Post
      (Volvo video from many years ago)
      You're still not substantiating anything except that Volvo doesn't know how to do a product demo. None of your cute videos are data that says adding safety systems reduces safety. The only study I know of to do an apples to apples comparison proves stability control increases safety.

      IIHS article on analysis of stability control

      That's why it's become a mandatory feature on cars, because it works and was proven by data to reduce wrecks.

    13. Member Jimmy Russells's Avatar
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      02-15-2017 06:54 PM #63
      Quote Originally Posted by AZGolf View Post
      You're still not substantiating anything except that Volvo doesn't know how to do a product demo. None of your cute videos are data that says adding safety systems reduces safety. The only study I know of to do an apples to apples comparison proves stability control increases safety.

      IIHS article on analysis of stability control

      That's why it's become a mandatory feature on cars, because it works and was proven by data to reduce wrecks.

      Cool so this will have relevance when stability control systems and automated braking systems have anything to do with each other

      Volvo is not all bad at demos;

      The OG Russells is back!

      Quote Originally Posted by Sump View Post
      I'm sure a lot of these guys went home after the carwash and played a little hans solo.

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      02-15-2017 07:27 PM #64
      Quote Originally Posted by AZGolf View Post
      Cite a source, which of course you can't because there is none.

      I've never ridden with any mature adult that said "Hey, I didn't die yesterday, better do 20 over the limit and start weaving aggressively more today!" People under 25? Maybe so, but we all already know that fatalities are way higher for young people and pretty flat from age 26-35 and at their lowest from about 35-55 only moving up significantly above age 65. Above that age, you start to run into a secondary complication, which is that the body is simply more frail and more likely to die in an accident that a younger driver would have survived.

      Bottom line is that I don't buy your unsubstantiated claim that actual mature people suddenly all become lawbreaking reckless drivers more and more every day that they don't get in a wreck. There's no data I know of to support such a claim.



      That car wasn't even equipped with automatic braking. Sales people get that stuff wrong all the time.
      Reading is fundamental. I said "chances are", I never said it was a fact.

      But what is a fact is auto deaths are up 15% in the last two years. AAA also says that drivers age 20-26 are the most dangerous. The younger drivers are not as dangerous.

      So you do you ride with millions of drivers?

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      02-15-2017 07:36 PM #65
      Quote Originally Posted by AZGolf View Post
      Cite a source, which of course you can't because there is none.

      I've never ridden with any mature adult that said "Hey, I didn't die yesterday, better do 20 over the limit and start weaving aggressively more today!" People under 25? Maybe so, but we all already know that fatalities are way higher for young people and pretty flat from age 26-35 and at their lowest from about 35-55 only moving up significantly above age 65. Above that age, you start to run into a secondary complication, which is that the body is simply more frail and more likely to die in an accident that a younger driver would have survived.

      Bottom line is that I don't buy your unsubstantiated claim that actual mature people suddenly all become lawbreaking reckless drivers more and more every day that they don't get in a wreck. There's no data I know of to support such a claim.
      I do seem to remember some studies where accident frequency/severity increased slightly (early on) with the advent of airbags and ABS because the oft-touted safety technology (like in the sales literature) subconsciously made drivers feel invincible so they were more apt to take risks they maybe wouldn't in older cars.

      Like this, toward the bottom
      http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/200...er-risk-by-51/

      Anecdotally, in almost the same spot where I saw the Sonata almost lose it, just a different day right after it had stopped raining, I crested a slight rise on the highway at 70 MPH with an Acura TL ahead of me and a (nice) El Camino to my left. As soon as we cleared the hill we were met with a sea of red brake lights a couple hundred feet ahead due to an accident (usually no gridlock in this area). The TL driver perhaps braked a little harder than needed, so I did as well -- got a few ABS pulses but the car stopped straight and with plenty of extra room. The El Camino cut the wheel to the left, jammed on the brakes, went into a big skid, did a complete 360° then stuck the rear bumper into the center divider.

      So the two guys in cars that were, ah, spiritedly hustling our way around slower vehicles were able to stop with no drama, while the old guy who was just trundling along in the left lane ended up wrecking his nice old truck.
      Improving the signal-to-noise ratio

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      02-15-2017 07:59 PM #66
      Quote Originally Posted by AZGolf View Post
      That car wasn't even equipped with automatic braking. Sales people get that stuff wrong all the time.
      Correct. I actually had time to test this system when they first came out in the XC60s. Worked 10/10 in various conditions. As someone who has admittedly rear ended someone before, I would like to have that just in case.
      Quote Originally Posted by Elite_Deforce View Post
      Panache, bruh.
      Quote Originally Posted by Ernie McCracken View Post
      I don't trust the judgment of anyone who likes black wheels.

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      02-15-2017 08:12 PM #67
      Quote Originally Posted by Elite_Deforce View Post
      Correct. I actually had time to test this system when they first came out in the XC60s. Worked 10/10 in various conditions. As someone who has admittedly rear ended someone before, I would like to have that just in case.
      It sounds like it hasn't made you a worse driver then.
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      02-15-2017 08:27 PM #68
      Quote Originally Posted by GoHomePossum View Post
      Driving my Jeep regularly has made me a better driver. Drum brakes, no ABS, mediocre tires and questionable seatbelts makes you think ahead of every mile.
      look at mr fancy pants here with his seatbelts, you probably have power steering and power brakes as well dont you... love driving my 64 vw baja bug, 30" bias ply tires, manual steering, manual brakes, no seatbelts, no abs, no airbags, no heat, no AC, and windshield wipers that consist of rain-x and speed. its such driving bliss no distractions cant hear the radio it really amazes me every time i drive it just how bad some drivers are in there new fancy cars. but yes it makes you plan ahead for stops and you have a fun time figuring out what people are doing
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      The sound is literally like if you put your head in a toilet bowl, pursed your lips, and said "oooooo".

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      02-15-2017 08:34 PM #69
      Quote Originally Posted by GodSquadMandrake View Post
      It sounds like it hasn't made you a worse driver then.
      This ****ing flamesuit doesn't fit!
      Quote Originally Posted by Elite_Deforce View Post
      Panache, bruh.
      Quote Originally Posted by Ernie McCracken View Post
      I don't trust the judgment of anyone who likes black wheels.

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      02-15-2017 08:43 PM #70
      No.

      A lack of education doesn't make us good drivers to begin with.
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      02-15-2017 08:48 PM #71
      Someone in a Chief Grand Cherokee, an 80 year old Vietnam vet who "never had been in an accident in his life" backed into me. I was at a stop sign, someone in front and behind me, so I was stuck where I was at. The Jeep started backing up so I hit my horn continuously, the Jeep stopped momentarily, then proceeded to back up into the passenger side of my Mk4. Driver then got out and said I heard a horn, but only saw a glare in my backup camera, I didn't notice a car. He admitted to not using his mirrors or looking back before backing up. Cops didn't even write a report or ticket, just an official exchange of insurance info.
      Alex, short for Alex.

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      02-15-2017 09:29 PM #72
      Quote Originally Posted by McFly3.2 View Post
      "Are "safety" features making us worse drivers? i.e. -adaptive cruise control, lane departure warnings, blind spot detection, auto-parking, and the trailer reverse control."
      Those options keep coming up in this thread, and I think we've lost track of the definitions of some of the terminology we're using here. For my dva rubles, I don't count those as "safety" items, not specifically. I think the term "safety" is being used pretty broadly here. Adaptive cruise, trailer reverse, auto parking, those don't address general safety. Those are convenience options, IMO. It lets you get away with being a sloppy, lazy driver. Hmmm, blind spot and rear view camera, probably safety, but your mirrors should be properly adjusted, and you should be looking where you're going in the first place. But why bother, some ninny posting to Snapchat will just run into you, anyways.

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      I'm not grouping everyone together - I would have said everyone in this forum is a moron.

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      02-15-2017 09:49 PM #73
      Quote Originally Posted by Triumph View Post
      GAnd it'll only get worse as time goes on, because we are breeding a generation of drivers who don't care. Adults complain about the "entitled millenials" who are more interested in piloting their phone than their vehicle. Well, we really have no right to complain because WE MADE THEM THAT WAY.
      I'm 32 and a Millennial. When do I become an "adult" and get to complain about millennials?



      Also, definitely not making us bad drivers. Slathering a bandage over those who are poor drivers, yes.

      A massive increase in power, general capability, and crap-poor driver's ed have all combined with a steady march upward in number of vehicles on the road to make us all pretty meager compared to what we could be.
      Quote Originally Posted by zukiphile View Post
      There is an area of a normal brain that lets the owner know the object works and needs to be left alone. Not all of us have it. It is like being colorblind.

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      02-15-2017 09:51 PM #74
      Quote Originally Posted by AZGolf View Post
      You can claim that, but show me how there has been any kind of huge increase in US commercial airline crashes in the last 10 years? Hint: there hasn't. There's virtually no US commercial airline crashes now.
      I agree. But the thread topic is "are safety features making us worse drivers", not "are safety features killing more people".
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      02-15-2017 09:54 PM #75
      Automation is making us worse pilots. It only makes sense that it would make people into inferior drivers as well.

      obin
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