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    Thread: Are "safety" features making us worse drivers?

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      02-16-2017 09:35 AM #101
      Quote Originally Posted by DeeJoker View Post
      I'm sorry, but it is physically impossible to modulate the brakes as fast as the ABS system can and does. I learned how to drive and brake using tried-and-true threshold braking and still would not consider a vehicle without ABS with few exceptions.
      It's not that you would modulate them as fast. I totally agree a human can not. It's that you would have more braking power with non ABS. So there are situaitons where non ABS is better. Also ABS allowing people to brake whenever they want just teaches them wrong. You brake, then you turn the wheel never the two together.

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      02-16-2017 10:34 AM #102
      Quote Originally Posted by DonL View Post
      Those options keep coming up in this thread...
      Hmmm wonder why... took those word for word from OP.
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      02-16-2017 10:42 AM #103
      Quote Originally Posted by jszucs View Post
      It's not that you would modulate them as fast. I totally agree a human can not. It's that you would have more braking power with non ABS. So there are situaitons where non ABS is better. Also ABS allowing people to brake whenever they want just teaches them wrong. You brake, then you turn the wheel never the two together.
      Link to any article or study that says you can't brake and turn at the same time. Now I know that the tires can only handle x amount of force before loss of traction. But it's completely possible in a modern car to 100% brake hard and make a emergency lane change. Done such move at least 40 times on a track. Same test in a non-abs car is very difficult and most people

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      02-16-2017 10:56 AM #104
      Quote Originally Posted by jszucs View Post
      It's not that you would modulate them as fast. I totally agree a human can not. It's that you would have more braking power with non ABS. So there are situaitons where non ABS is better. Also ABS allowing people to brake whenever they want just teaches them wrong. You brake, then you turn the wheel never the two together.
      Some vehicles have logic now, especially 4x4 ones with different modes like "snow" and "sand" that allow the wedges of material to build up in front of the tires that slow it more effectively.

      Studies have shown that most people don't deploy full braking power in a panic stop situation so modern cars have brake assist that only activates in certain situations, like when you have been cruising along, suddenly and quickly release the accelerator and then jam on the brakes (like if a kid runs out into the street from behind a parked car). If, in your surprise, you only ask for, say, 87% of braking power it will summon the rest of what is available.

      I have experienced it 2 or 3 times in the 5 years I have had my car and it is very effective. In all cases I didn't need it, just needed a quick, firm stab of the brakes, but the amount of additional braking power it was able to summon was pretty remarkable. If you lift your foot slightly it deactivates.

      Additionally cars with advanced collision avoidance systems are always watching what is going on. If they detect that a collision is imminent or by monitoring how quickly the accelerator pedal is released, they can "precharge" the braking system with pressure so that when it does intervene or when the driver applies the brakes, full braking power is immediately available/summoned. Think of those old GM vehicles where if you quickly stab the pedal it doesn't move and nothing happens for a second, then the car starts braking as the pedal begins to sink.

      Quote Originally Posted by wiki
      Emergency brake assist (EBA) or Brake Assist (BA or BAS) is a generic term for an automobile braking technology that increases braking pressure in an emergency. The first application was developed jointly by Daimler-Benz and TRW/LucasVarity. Research conducted in 1992 at the Mercedes-Benz driving simulator in Berlin revealed that more than 90% of drivers fail to brake with enough force when faced with an emergency.

      By interpreting the speed and force with which the brake pedal is pushed, the system detects if the driver is trying to execute an emergency stop, and if the brake pedal is not fully applied, the system overrides and fully applies the brakes until the Anti-lock Braking System (ABS) takes over to stop the wheels locking up.[1]

      An electronic system designed to recognise emergency braking operation and automatically enhance braking effort improves vehicle and occupant safety, and can reduce stopping distances by up to 70 ft (21 m) at 125 mph (201 km/h)[2]

      Brake Assist detects circumstances in which emergency braking is required by measuring the speed with which the brake pedal is depressed. Some systems additionally take into account the rapidity of which the accelerator pedal is released, pre-tensioning the brakes when a "panic release" of the accelerator pedal is noted. When panic braking is detected, the Brake Assist system automatically develops maximum brake boost in order to mitigate a driver's tendency to brake without enough force. In doing so, Brake Assist has been shown to reduce stopping distance by a significant margin (up to 20% in some studies).
      Improving the signal-to-noise ratio

    5. 02-16-2017 11:03 AM #105
      They are assistants not driving for you. Take active cruise control, how many of you creep up to the back of the car in front. You don't with acc. Plus these devices scream at you to take control or tell you there's a problem thus alerting you to the dangers

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      02-16-2017 11:04 AM #106
      I cant stand alot of the stuff in these new vehicles. I'm the person who always backs in now, it started when I got a crew cab long bed, there is no going in front first in the average parking lot with one of those..

      The back up camera? Geez, give me a decent pair of mirrors and I will park the car twice as fast instead of that limited view fuzzy screen. Teaching people to rely on those and not their three mirrors is just a matter of a pedestrian being hit sooner or later. In an apartment complex with kids running around all the time, maybe it would help you a kid that jumps out of the bushes up to your bumper, but I have a feeling most people are going to just look at the camera..

      I then had a Chrysler 300 rental.. Every time you put the car in reverse the mirrors point down at the ground to focus on the lines on the parking lot... Cant see if you are going to run into a pole, but you can see the pebbles of the parking lot wonderfully.

      Those side detection things, ugh.. At best they sit there and beep all the time when you arent even changing lanes. The worst was when I was in Germany driving on the narrow lanes of the Autobahn. Everytime I passed someone or got passed(all vehicles maintaining lanes) a loud BEEP BEEP BEEP, and with normal traffic it was like every minute.

      The worst was I had a Tahoe as a rental vehicle in Philly. Everytime I make a turn, hit a bump, etc the seat would vibrate. I didnt know what the eff was going on. It freaked me out and me from the traffic trying to figure out WTF it was. Turns out it was some sort of stability warning system, which is triggered every 15 feet on Philly's wonderful roads combined with GM's horrible suspension. Then it had the side detection alarms that would go off on the narrow surface streets that would scare the isht out of you if you werent expecting them.

      As someone who pays attention, I find that stuff to distract my eyes off the damned road while I look for some sort of the threat because its detecting something thats not.

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      02-16-2017 11:05 AM #107
      Some cars will apply brakes after a heavy water puddle. Keeps them dry and ready for full braking power, if needed.

      These same features will also pretension seatbelts. Mercedes seats will turn away from a side impact. Many new cars have a emergency brake light flash function. If you quickly and harshly stab the brakes the rear brakes lights have a special flash pattern that's been show effective at alerting the rear cars that your braking.

      Also love the post crash event actions. The hazards lights come on the the brakes apply and keep the car from continuing in the event the driver fails to apply braking.

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      02-16-2017 11:38 AM #108
      Quote Originally Posted by adrew View Post
      Some vehicles have logic now, especially 4x4 ones with different modes like "snow" and "sand" that allow the wedges of material to build up in front of the tires that slow it more effectively.
      I honestly miss the ability to shut ABS off in the snow, it is unnerving to feel the brake pedal go all pop rocks as you slide ever closer to impending doom All cars should have at least a 'snow' setting IMO
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      02-16-2017 12:21 PM #109
      Quote Originally Posted by Tdi13golf View Post
      Link to any article or study that says you can't brake and turn at the same time. Now I know that the tires can only handle x amount of force before loss of traction. But it's completely possible in a modern car to 100% brake hard and make a emergency lane change. Done such move at least 40 times on a track. Same test in a non-abs car is very difficult and most people
      Um every single performace driving school teaches brake then turn never both together. Heck even the motorcycle test has a test for this. They will fail you if they see brake light before you complete the offset move then brake.


      http://www.formula1-dictionary.net/b...technique.html
      "If you want highest degree of control, braking should always be completed when traveling in a straight line before cornering and always be carried out progressively. "
      Last edited by jszucs; 02-16-2017 at 12:25 PM.

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      02-16-2017 12:29 PM #110
      Quote Originally Posted by jszucs View Post
      totally disagree. It is not an improvement in all cases. max breaking can be achived from a proficient driver without ABS VS same car with ABS. It also teaches bad drivers to not break properly since they can now not have to break before turning.
      Your assumption about driver skill is really telling. Remember the Carlin quote about average people? ABS gives average drivers something to get them out of a jam and bad drivers something to save their bacon. Good drivers might never know it's there.

      Quote Originally Posted by Tdi13golf View Post
      Mechanically impossible for a driver to modulate pressure independently on each wheel. Even if the driver had four independent brake pedals, the brain is unable to function as quick as a modern car.
      This. At best you can have front to rear bias with a manual ebrake, but side-to-side is not even possible for a driver. Only with the pump.

      Quote Originally Posted by Silly_me View Post
      I honestly miss the ability to shut ABS off in the snow, it is unnerving to feel the brake pedal go all pop rocks as you slide ever closer to impending doom All cars should have at least a 'snow' setting IMO
      I do love that I can turn off the ABS on the GS (motorcycle). That is fun. However, no motorcyclist will claim that ABS is bad.

      A bit of background for the ABS n00bs - ABS stands for anti-blockierungssystem - German for anti-blocking system. A brake block occurs when the hydraulic pressure overcomes the sliding friction and the required pressure to hold the disc still drops off due to the transition to static friction. This means that you have exceeded the threshold and will have to lift more than you realize to release the disc. ABS manages the pressure at the caliper and automatically releases the pressure sufficiently to release the disc, and then reapplies it quickly. Each little slip of the disc is a chance for the tyre to hook up and allow motion control.

      The purpose of ABS is not to stop more quickly, but to be able to steer while braking.

      It's much more evident on single-track vehicles.



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      02-16-2017 12:35 PM #111
      The fact this went to 5 pages should indicate whether things are getting dumb or dumber OP.
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      02-16-2017 12:36 PM #112
      Quote Originally Posted by atomicalex View Post
      Your assumption about driver skill is really telling. Remember the Carlin quote about average people? ABS gives average drivers something to get them out of a jam and bad drivers something to save their bacon. Good drivers might never know it's there.

      This. At best you can have front to rear bias with a manual ebrake, but side-to-side is not even possible for a driver. Only with the pump.

      I do love that I can turn off the ABS on the GS (motorcycle). That is fun. However, no motorcyclist will claim that ABS is bad.
      Yes that is totally correct. The problem is people without high enough skills, and lack of knowledge of even the basic physics at hand. none of which is tested. The root of the problem is money is made by putting everyone and anyone on the road and there is no way to make it more profitable to only put high level drivers on the road (yes I'm a driving and computer elitist)

      LOTS of motorcyclce riders will tell you ABS is bad..... I WOULD NEVER BUY A BIKE WITH ABS I want to be able to lock that tire up at will.

      You are also wrong on no side to side braking. There are systems out there that allow side to side and even independant control. They are typically used in rock crawling, but they are out there.

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      02-16-2017 01:17 PM #113
      Quote Originally Posted by jszucs View Post
      You are also wrong on no side to side braking. There are systems out there that allow side to side and even independant control. They are typically used in rock crawling, but they are out there.
      Yeah, that is totally the same thing as a computerized system that can react several times per second as the surface changes under each tire due to icy patches on one side of the road, potholes, pavement condition, paint stripes, etc etc etc.

      No one is going to reach over and feather the proportioning valve if someone pulls out in front of them on a road with patchy ice.
      Improving the signal-to-noise ratio

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      02-16-2017 01:36 PM #114
      Quote Originally Posted by adrew View Post
      Yeah, that is totally the same thing as a computerized system that can react several times per second as the surface changes under each tire due to icy patches on one side of the road, potholes, pavement condition, paint stripes, etc etc etc.

      No one is going to reach over and feather the proportioning valve if someone pulls out in front of them on a road with patchy ice.
      It's usually an independant lever to each wheel not a prop valve.

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      02-16-2017 01:43 PM #115
      Quote Originally Posted by jszucs View Post
      It's usually an independant lever to each wheel not a prop valve.
      (Furthering the point)

      "Okay, someone just pulled out in front of me, let me reduce the left rear a hair, crank up the right front a little since that is a sunny patch, whoops, dial it back due that oily spot..."
      Improving the signal-to-noise ratio

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      02-16-2017 02:24 PM #116
      Quote Originally Posted by adrew View Post
      (Furthering the point)

      "Okay, someone just pulled out in front of me, let me reduce the left rear a hair, crank up the right front a little since that is a sunny patch, whoops, dial it back due that oily spot..."
      Only said it did exist... not you would use it on the road.

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      02-16-2017 02:32 PM #117
      Quote Originally Posted by jszucs View Post
      Yes that is totally correct. The problem is people without high enough skills, and lack of knowledge of even the basic physics at hand. none of which is tested. The root of the problem is money is made by putting everyone and anyone on the road and there is no way to make it more profitable to only put high level drivers on the road (yes I'm a driving and computer elitist)

      LOTS of motorcyclce riders will tell you ABS is bad..... I WOULD NEVER BUY A BIKE WITH ABS I want to be able to lock that tire up at will.

      You are also wrong on no side to side braking. There are systems out there that allow side to side and even independant control. They are typically used in rock crawling, but they are out there.
      Quote Originally Posted by jszucs View Post
      Only said it did exist... not you would use it on the road.
      Do you read what you post? So a system that is not practical to be used on the road should be handed to people with at best moderate driving skills who are (wait for it) driving cars on the road.... Really.....

      BTW, if you actually know how to use ABS, you can lock up your tyres at will, especially on a bike.... But I guess if you are too lazy to learn your ABS system, well, then you wouldn't know that.

      You may be a driving elitist, good for you. That does not make you a good driver, though. It just gives you a high horse to sit on.
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      02-16-2017 02:38 PM #118
      Quote Originally Posted by BetterByDesign View Post
      The fact this went to 5 pages should indicate whether things are getting dumb or dumber OP.


      I forgot that a great number of TCL posters are as good behind the wheel as Schumacher.

      They probably only carry car insurance because of the other idiots on the road, too.
      The above post may contain opinions, coarse language, offensive terms, spelling mistakes, and/or improper grammar. You have been warned.

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      02-16-2017 02:53 PM #119
      Good info here. I watch A LOT of "Air Disasters" on Smithsonian, so that makes me an expert. The "Miracle on the Hudson" was pretty much only possible because the pilot was former Air Force, with many more hours of difficult cockpit flying than a regular civilian aviator. (further incorrect assumptions stated as fact deleted)
      Quote Originally Posted by OOOO-A3 View Post
      No. NO. No no no no no. That is complete and utter bull****.
      So any old pilot could have pulled off that feat?
      -Triumph, the Insult Comic Dog

      I saw this in a movie about a bus that had to speed around the city, keeping its speed over fifty, and if its speed dropped, the bus would explode! I think it was called, "The Bus That Couldn't Slow Down."

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      02-16-2017 02:56 PM #120
      Quote Originally Posted by DeeJoker View Post
      :
      They probably only carry car insurance because of the other idiots on the road, too.
      I just self insure. I will never be in an at fault accident.
      Quote Originally Posted by Turbio! View Post
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      02-16-2017 02:58 PM #121
      Quote Originally Posted by OOOO-A3 View Post
      No.

      The entire argument that old / less-automated vehicles make people "better" drivers is flawed. You are not a "better" driver if you know how to operate a manual choke, unsynchronized manual transmission, non-ABS brakes, manual recirculating-ball steering, and so on. That describes what i learned to drive in, but it has no relevance to what I drive today. I've adapted to all the new tech over many years as it became available in cars the I had.

      If you can correctly and safely operate something that primitive, great! It doesn't make you a 'better' driver, it means you have a set of skills to operate that type of vehicle.

      Take a person who's only ever driven something that primitive and put them in the latest 2017 tech, and they'd be overwhelmed and unsafe. They wouldn't have the skills to operate a modern vehicle. The reverse is also true - take a person who learns to drive in and is fully proficient in operating a Tesla Model S and put them in something from the early 1960s, they'd be overwhelmed and unsafe. Different vehicles, different equipment different required skills.

      These skills:
      • manual transmission (full-sync or unsynchronized)
      • non-ABS brakes
      • lack of Traction Control / Stability Control
      • manual choke
      • 'automatic' choke (remember pressing and releasing the accelerator once to 'set' the choke, then tapping it to make the idle slow down after it warms up?)
      • paying attention to an oil-pressure gauge in cold weather
      • dealing with a cold-start or flooded carburetor

      ... are completely irrelevant for the majority of people who have never driven anything but modern automatic/ABS/ESC/fuel-injected cars, and will never buy anything new that requires those skills. We're in a transition period now with things like park assist (beeping proximity sensors --> cameras with distance lines --> self-parking) and blind-spot protection (convex mirrors --> blind spot alerts --> auto-steering). It's important to be able to function without the new tech while you're still likely to drive cars with/without it, but as it becomes near 100% market saturation the need for the do-it-yourself skills diminishes.

      summary: You need the skills relevant to the vehicle you operate, whatever it happens to be. Skills that are irrelevant to the vehicle you're operating don't make you necessarily better.
      It's simple. You take a teenage driver. Throw them in an older Miata with no ESP or ABS on a wet race track, and make them practice, they WILL become a better driver.
      -Triumph, the Insult Comic Dog

      I saw this in a movie about a bus that had to speed around the city, keeping its speed over fifty, and if its speed dropped, the bus would explode! I think it was called, "The Bus That Couldn't Slow Down."

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      02-16-2017 03:23 PM #122
      Quote Originally Posted by Triumph View Post
      It's simple. You take a teenage driver. Throw them in an older Miata with no ESP or ABS on a wet race track, and make them practice, they WILL become a better driver.
      Because that's cost effective.

      Sent from the Future via Google SkyNet
      Quote Originally Posted by zukiphile View Post
      There is an area of a normal brain that lets the owner know the object works and needs to be left alone. Not all of us have it. It is like being colorblind.

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      02-16-2017 03:38 PM #123
      Quote Originally Posted by turbinepowered View Post
      Because that's cost effective.

      Sent from the Future via Google SkyNet
      Germans pay approximately $3,000 in driver's ed training before getting their license.

      Americans don't even want to pay $100 to spend time practicing in a controlled, supervised environment.

      And we wonder why American drivers are so ****ty.
      -Triumph, the Insult Comic Dog

      I saw this in a movie about a bus that had to speed around the city, keeping its speed over fifty, and if its speed dropped, the bus would explode! I think it was called, "The Bus That Couldn't Slow Down."

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      02-16-2017 03:56 PM #124
      Quote Originally Posted by Triumph View Post
      It's simple. You take a teenage driver. Throw them in an older Miata with no ESP or ABS on a wet race track, and make them practice, they WILL become a better driver.
      Yep..... pay for some good instruction under controlled conditions.... and you also need to raise the bar HIGH on the test. Do something like add 2 cones 1" outside the wideest part of the car (gen mirrors) this gives you a 2" leway. Now make them drive at it at 60 MPH and put the car between them.

      It test that you have the mental capacity to deal with the distortion speed brings (you mind will tell you the space is too small for the car to fit), and that you know exactly where the spacial boundry of your car is. They should also test physics both the simple and complex physicas at play.

      Quote Originally Posted by turbinepowered View Post
      Because that's cost effective.

      Sent from the Future via Google SkyNet

      And it's cost effective because it will cut down on the number of people who can't drive and get in wrecks costing allot more in repairs, med buills ECT.
      Last edited by jszucs; 02-16-2017 at 03:58 PM.

    25. Member DeeJoker's Avatar
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      02-16-2017 03:58 PM #125
      Quote Originally Posted by Triumph View Post
      Germans pay approximately $3,000 in driver's ed training before getting their license.

      Americans don't even want to pay $100 to spend time practicing in a controlled, supervised environment.

      And we wonder why American drivers are so ****ty.
      I've had and read this same argument on TCL for over a decade.

      Americans think it is a right to get a driver's license. They do not understand that it is a privilege, not a right, and can be revoked at any time. If we make the cost of license prohibitively more expensive to get in the first place, it would eventually cause more care to be exhibited by drivers to keep said hard earned privilege from being revoked.

      It would also force those without the financial means to obtain a license to use public transit. Ridership on public transit would exponentially increase because not everyone can afford the license to drive. (And politicians, being the pandering piles of excrement that they are would immediately call it discrimination against poor folks)

      Our cities would become more "walkable," inter-city transit would improve dramatically because a real demand would be created. AMTRAK could actually become solvent because of the increase in ridership.

      However, that would take decades to catch up, and the pain felt through the economy would be substantial. Sure, infrastructure would be vastly improved, with "shovel ready" jobs created by the thousands, but the car industry would be decimated. The pool of potential buyers would be gutted. And the unemployment created by shuttered factories likely would cause a massive recession on the front end.

      So, yeah, not gonna happen.
      The above post may contain opinions, coarse language, offensive terms, spelling mistakes, and/or improper grammar. You have been warned.

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