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    Thread: General Motors halts Venezuela operations as authorities seize plant

    1. Member DerSpiegel's Avatar
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      04-20-2017 12:14 PM #26
      Quote Originally Posted by patrikman View Post
      Nothing personal but there is no fixing that mess, short of an even bigger and more expensive mess. I feel bad for the people that live there, but my opinion stands. It's only a matter of time before somebody steps in to "help" liberate the country. And when I say liberate the country, I'm not talking about its citizens.


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      04-20-2017 12:19 PM #27
      I've known a few Venezuelian families since the early 90s.
      Great people... so please don't wish bad things upon the entire country as there are great people everywhere.

      Politics... screwing the common people since the beginning of time.
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    3. Member Mike!'s Avatar
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      04-20-2017 12:24 PM #28
      Chavez had obvious faults, but at least he had the intelligence necessary to keep the country functional. Maduro, on the other hand,



      Things are going to come to a head soon. The whole point of socialism is supposed to include everyone having their basic needs provided for. If people are starving because of hyperinflation and resource hoarding, you've done ****ed up, and the pitchforks will be coming.

    4. Senior Member bzcat's Avatar
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      04-20-2017 12:52 PM #29
      Quote Originally Posted by Mike! View Post
      Chavez had obvious faults, but at least he had the intelligence necessary to keep the country functional. Maduro, on the other hand,

      Things are going to come to a head soon. The whole point of socialism is supposed to include everyone having their basic needs provided for. If people are starving because of hyperinflation and resource hoarding, you've done ****ed up, and the pitchforks will be coming.
      What's happening in Venezuela is not socialism. It's authoritarian despotism. You have one branch of the Govt subverting all rules of law to keep an idiot in power.

      BTW, I think this thread is now headed to OT... no one even mentioned GM since the OP

      I wonder what the Ford, FCA, and Toyota plants in Venezuela are up to today?

    5. Geriatric Member spockcat's Avatar
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      04-20-2017 12:54 PM #30
      Quote Originally Posted by bzcat View Post

      BTW, I think this thread is now headed to OT... no one even mentioned GM since the OP

      I wonder what the Ford, FCA, and Toyota plants in Venezuela are up to today?
      I mentioned GM.

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      04-20-2017 01:17 PM #31
      Weren't '67'-'68 Camaros produced in Venezuela as well for the South American market?

    7. Member GTI_CH's Avatar
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      04-20-2017 01:28 PM #32
      Quote Originally Posted by patrikman View Post
      Another country I won't mourn the loss of when the seas rise.
      Florida?

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      04-20-2017 09:53 PM #33
      Quote Originally Posted by bzcat View Post
      What's happening in Venezuela is not socialism. It's authoritarian despotism.
      Yeah, folks talking of socialism's failure in this case have no clue and likely need to stop drinking the Koolaid.

      I wonder what the Ford, FCA, and Toyota plants in Venezuela are up to today?
      Well, here ya go...

      Answer: Not a whole lot, which shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone.

      http://www.freep.com/story/money/car...ent/100703354/

    9. Senior Member AZGolf's Avatar
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      04-20-2017 10:10 PM #34
      Quote Originally Posted by Bonk2Hossa View Post
      Bernie Sanders is more of a social democrat who wants to borrow ideas and policies from countries like Denmark. He is a breath of fresh air because he is open and honest about his platform and his ideas on how to achieve his goals. (An example is a financial transaction tax on Wall St. to go to covering the costs associated with a "free" public education. The U.S. actually already had this tax up until 1966.)
      Sanders' ideas may have worked back before free trade and the internet, but they can't work today - at least not the way he pitched them. Fact is, they barely even work in a lot of European countries which are either secretly relying on petroleum exports, tourism, or just flat out pretending youth unemployment doesn't exist. Anybody else catch the news about the latest Audi plant going in to (lower cost) Slovakia and Hungary? That's for a premium brand and everything, where labor costs are an even smaller fraction of the car's sticker price than mass-produced cars like VWs.

      France recently instituted a 75% income tax. The result? Tons of businesses and wealthy individuals have fled to other European nations, made easier by the fact the EU nations largely use the same currency now (with a few exceptions) and are mandated to permit free travel within the Schengen area. Now it's not like France has gone bankrupt or anything, but the old world thinking where you can raise taxes and tell everyone "Deal with it" doesn't work the same anymore. It's simply gotten so easy for a company to be anywhere and for people to at least officially live anywhere that you have to be a lot more careful about how you go about these things.

      To be honest, I think Sanders could have won if he was slightly less radical about his proposals. State sponsored college & healthcare really are achievable goals in the US, but Sanders was so in-your-face about it that there was zero chance of him ever winning the bulk of the country, hence why DNC had to pull out all the stops to make sure he couldn't have the nomination. Honest opinion here though: a toned down version of Sanders could have beaten Hillary and likely would have won the election.

    10. 40 Year Old Madonna Fan patrikman's Avatar
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      04-20-2017 10:23 PM #35
      Quote Originally Posted by AZGolf View Post
      Sanders' ideas may have worked back before free trade and the internet, but they can't work today - at least not the way he pitched them. Fact is, they barely even work in a lot of European countries which are either secretly relying on petroleum exports, tourism, or just flat out pretending youth unemployment doesn't exist. Anybody else catch the news about the latest Audi plant going in to (lower cost) Slovakia and Hungary? That's for a premium brand and everything, where labor costs are an even smaller fraction of the car's sticker price than mass-produced cars like VWs.

      France recently instituted a 75% income tax. The result? Tons of businesses and wealthy individuals have fled to other European nations, made easier by the fact the EU nations largely use the same currency now (with a few exceptions) and are mandated to permit free travel within the Schengen area. Now it's not like France has gone bankrupt or anything, but the old world thinking where you can raise taxes and tell everyone "Deal with it" doesn't work the same anymore. It's simply gotten so easy for a company to be anywhere and for people to at least officially live anywhere that you have to be a lot more careful about how you go about these things.

      To be honest, I think Sanders could have won if he was slightly less radical about his proposals. State sponsored college & healthcare really are achievable goals in the US, but Sanders was so in-your-face about it that there was zero chance of him ever winning the bulk of the country, hence why DNC had to pull out all the stops to make sure he couldn't have the nomination. Honest opinion here though: a toned down version of Sanders could have beaten Hillary and likely would have won the election.
      I think you should do some fact checking on your France blurb.
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      04-20-2017 10:25 PM #36
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      04-20-2017 10:30 PM #37
      What's really telling is if you go look at the sat view on Google Maps of the Valencia factory its parking lot is... empty. Google updates their maps periodically and almost no assembly plant in operation have empty lots.

      The whole situation in that country is unfortunate. The reliance on just oil production and little diversification elsewhere plus voting in idiot demagogues is never a formula for sustainability.

      And there will be more to come since they're not the only country following similar ways. Furthermore... yet another destabilized country in SA can only initiate a domino effect as they become a strain on neighboring countries, which aren't exactly the wealthiest nations to absorb such grief. I'm surprised there aren't mass exoduses to Caribbean island nations, yet.

    13. Geriatric Member J-Tim's Avatar
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      04-20-2017 11:14 PM #38
      Quote Originally Posted by patrikman View Post
      Sounds familiar.
      Sure does. Plenty of awesome places and good friends in USofA. Too bad you've been getting one muppet after another for a president lately.
      🍵 🚴 🍲 💤
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      04-20-2017 11:38 PM #39
      Quote Originally Posted by J-Tim View Post
      Sure does. Plenty of awesome places and good friends in USofA. Too bad you've been getting one muppet after another for a president lately.
      Uh, you have dumb broads like Pauline Hansen in your country mate hahaha

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      04-20-2017 11:53 PM #40
      Quote Originally Posted by DUBPL8 View Post
      Uh, you have dumb broads like Pauline Hansen in your country mate hahaha
      Yup. Pushing bogan agenda since 1998
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    16. Member Form Ocean's Avatar
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      04-21-2017 02:05 AM #41
      They had to seize the plant. It was the only place they could get toilet paper for Sean Penn's upcoming visit.

    17. Geriatric Member BRealistic's Avatar
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      04-21-2017 07:59 AM #42
      What exactly are the plans for this plant?
      Build what you can with what's there for in country use?
      I'm not sure they would be allowed to export to any major markets without GM backing the product somehow.

      Elio's new plant!?
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    18. 04-21-2017 08:19 AM #43
      Quote Originally Posted by AZGolf View Post
      Sanders' ideas may have worked back before free trade and the internet, but they can't work today - at least not the way he pitched them. Fact is, they barely even work in a lot of European countries which are either secretly relying on petroleum exports, tourism, or just flat out pretending youth unemployment doesn't exist. Anybody else catch the news about the latest Audi plant going in to (lower cost) Slovakia and Hungary? That's for a premium brand and everything, where labor costs are an even smaller fraction of the car's sticker price than mass-produced cars like VWs.

      France recently instituted a 75% income tax. The result? Tons of businesses and wealthy individuals have fled to other European nations, made easier by the fact the EU nations largely use the same currency now (with a few exceptions) and are mandated to permit free travel within the Schengen area. Now it's not like France has gone bankrupt or anything, but the old world thinking where you can raise taxes and tell everyone "Deal with it" doesn't work the same anymore. It's simply gotten so easy for a company to be anywhere and for people to at least officially live anywhere that you have to be a lot more careful about how you go about these things.

      To be honest, I think Sanders could have won if he was slightly less radical about his proposals. State sponsored college & healthcare really are achievable goals in the US, but Sanders was so in-your-face about it that there was zero chance of him ever winning the bulk of the country, hence why DNC had to pull out all the stops to make sure he couldn't have the nomination. Honest opinion here though: a toned down version of Sanders could have beaten Hillary and likely would have won the election.
      France rescinded the tax back in 2015 due to the unintended consequences of...not raising enough money. Also, the businesses and wealthy fleeing to other EU countries played a large roll as you mentioned.

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      04-21-2017 08:38 AM #44
      Quote Originally Posted by spockcat View Post
      So what happens to all the Venezuelan employees in the GM plant and supplier plants? Out of work. On government benefits if they even have them? Seems kind of short sighted of the government if that is what happens.
      I don't know the answer but this plant hasn't produced a new car off the line in at least 2 years if the articles I read last night are correct. GM kept the employees on the payroll, but how long does that last of they aren't producing anything.

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      04-21-2017 08:47 AM #45
      Quote Originally Posted by BRealistic View Post
      What exactly are the plans for this plant?
      Build what you can with what's there for in country use?
      I'm not sure they would be allowed to export to any major markets without GM backing the product somehow.
      If you read the article I linked there is some info regarding the industry's status down there.

      I'm not certain, but I assume Valencia Plant was just for that market and that's because at one time Venezuela was assumed to be an emerging market with its oil wealth... which justified its own factory. The other small SA countries with paltry sales probably get their vehicles from either Mexico or Brazil.

      They could just rebadge the vehicles and export them anywhere they wanted, but given the government leadership is so ignorant and inept about how business works (let alone global trade) it is highly doubtful that idea would fly. And that's assuming they could even get the parts from the various tiers of suppliers to build the vehicles. And that probability is lower than low given their currency ain't worth a ****... and that most suppliers aren't stupid.

      This is generally why production has dropped from under a couple hundred thou a year to a few thou this past year. And I believe that number is TOTAL... not just GM, which according to what I've read hasn't built anything there since 2015 or so... which explains the empty parking lot at the factory in Google Maps.

      Small markets with factories like this usually get big part subsystems from other regions (i.e. They don't make them locally.) so even if you have 99.9999999% of the other parts... if you don't have seats or a steering wheel or a transmission... it's going to be hard to make a car to sell. And I'm pretty certain GM doesn't make powertrains there.

      >>>BTW... to answer your original question... I think corrupt regimes like this nationalize businesses, because they think it's just a matter of reopening a factory and workers will just naturally get a paycheck again. Despots like this are so clueless about business that they believe it is this simple. It doesn't help that their nepotism and/or fellow partners in crime... errr... ideology... are likely similarly inexperienced and that simple-minded that they believe they can force a business or company in an industry as complex and global as automotive to just make cars.
      Last edited by uncleho; 04-21-2017 at 09:28 AM.

    21. Member Mike!'s Avatar
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      04-21-2017 09:15 AM #46
      Quote Originally Posted by uncleho View Post
      What's really telling is if you go look at the sat view on Google Maps of the Valencia factory its parking lot is... empty. Google updates their maps periodically and almost no assembly plant in operation have empty lots.

      The whole situation in that country is unfortunate. The reliance on just oil production and little diversification elsewhere plus voting in idiot demagogues is never a formula for sustainability.

      And there will be more to come since they're not the only country following similar ways. Furthermore... yet another destabilized country in SA can only initiate a domino effect as they become a strain on neighboring countries, which aren't exactly the wealthiest nations to absorb such grief. I'm surprised there aren't mass exoduses to Caribbean island nations, yet.
      I read something that production was suspended at some point last year, so basically they seized an idle plant.

      Probably won't hurt GM in the long run. I'm with you that I'm more concerned about Venezuelans' continuing plight.

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      04-21-2017 09:56 AM #47
      Quote Originally Posted by Mike! View Post
      I read something that production was suspended at some point last year, so basically they seized an idle plant.

      Probably won't hurt GM in the long run. I'm with you that I'm more concerned about Venezuelans' continuing plight.
      I can only imagine that they're still better off than places like Libya and that's why an exodus of "boat people" hasn't occurred yet. Although I can't imagine they're going to get far boating to the various Caribbean islands which seem fairly poor themselves once you step foot off the all-inclusive resorts.

      Some interesting stuff...
      http://atlas.media.mit.edu/en/profile/country/ven/

      USA & Mexico for reference...
      http://atlas.media.mit.edu/en/profile/country/usa/

      http://atlas.media.mit.edu/en/profile/country/mex/

      They rely on more food imports proportionally than USA or Mexico. It's funny how much their economy relies on the USA, but their recent leadership denigrates the USA every chance they get.

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      04-21-2017 10:07 AM #48
      Quote Originally Posted by uncleho View Post
      I can only imagine that they're still better off than places like Libya and that's why an exodus of "boat people" hasn't occurred yet. Although I can't imagine they're going to get far boating to the various Caribbean islands which seem fairly poor themselves once you step foot off the all-inclusive resorts.
      Those that could afford to and get visas fled to the U.S. or other Latin American countries a long time ago. I've met a ton of educated Venezuelans here in Texas. You see people with graduate degrees signing up for random U.S. undergrad programs so they can get a student visa. The brain drain out of that country is staggering.

      The poor are probably better off trying to get to Columbia (which actually seems to be on an upward trajectory these days) rather than getting on a boat somewhere, but many of the poorest are too weak to even travel. Some are actually worse off from a food situation than many of the African migrants.

    24. 04-21-2017 10:49 AM #49
      Quote Originally Posted by BRealistic View Post

      Elio's new plant!?
      I hear they are taking deposits.

      Quote Originally Posted by Nealric View Post
      The poor are probably better off trying to get to Columbia (which actually seems to be on an upward trajectory these days) rather than getting on a boat somewhere, but many of the poorest are too weak to even travel. Some are actually worse off from a food situation than many of the African migrants.
      With the current bunch having run the place for a couple of decades, I wonder what independent leadership is left in the armed services.
      Last edited by zukiphile; 04-21-2017 at 11:06 AM.
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      04-21-2017 11:28 AM #50
      Quote Originally Posted by zukiphile View Post
      I hear they are taking deposits.
      I didn't realize it was direct injection.
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