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    Thread: ECM dead or no? Help me decide.

    1. 05-04-2017 02:13 PM #1
      Hey guys and gals! Been a while since I posted, but I've been around. I've got a problem with Tempie (short for temperamental), and while I've been doing some searching and finding lots of leads I still have yet to find something matching my symptoms, my exact car, or - in many cases - a concrete resolution. If only I had a TDI...

      Tempie is a 2003 Jetta GLS Sedan with a 2.0L AVH engine (and the apparently dreaded 01M tranny). I got her several years ago and did ALL required and recommended maintenance right away. Coolant flush, timing belt w/ components, ALL suspension, tranny fluid (which is how I learned vag-com was required - that job ended up with new ribbon cable, solenoids, and fluid). I did crank and cam sensors, temp sensor, coil pack, alternator, radiator, fuel pump, repaired SAI pump, and fixed the AC compressor. Some of these things were done immediately - some in the years since. NEVER has the car been broke down - I'm a mechanic (of the shadetree variety) and while I do neglect my own cars a bit, I do not put off any work that could potentially leave my wife, daughter, or myself stranded. The only consistant issue I've had is SRS light - which I believe has to do with corrosion on a connector - and not the easy under the seat ones... Aside from that I have noticed some slight delay in gears engaging on a cold tranny - with the age and mileage I am not surprised by this - my plan is to run it till it stops and then consider a 5 speed swap. That's the history as best as I recall - now for the present.

      My daughter (new driver) has been driving the car since October. She had been telling me that she thinks the starter has an issue, but I was never able to replicate the problem, so I said we'd wait till it got worse. After several weeks, I went to drive the car and found that it is just taking a long time to start. Cranks fine, but no fire. Sometimes it would require a long crank, sometime several long ones. When I say long, what I mean is longer than expected, But it never took even a full minute to be started (this is overall time - I would crank for maybe 5-10 seconds, wait a few, then try again. Once started, the car is perfectly reliable - no stalling, misfires, jerking, etc. Also, I have not had a starting issue after the engine has started once, regardless of how many stop/start cycles I did.

      That all changed recently. I parked the car last Thursday, went to start it Saturday morning and it cranks like there's no tomorrow, but does not fire. At all. After doing some research I go back out and see that I do NOT have a check engine or epc light come on with ignition. I had to look online just to see for sure where the check engine light is even located - the car has been THAT reliable. I hooked up VCDS and get no ECM communication - but I can check the other modules - most report No ECM Communication. Obviously I have no engine codes to share...

      What I have done so far is fairly minimal. I have to get a wiper arm puller to access the ECM - never needed one till now, but those wipers are ON there! Battery voltage is 11-12ish with key on or off. I have ALMOST no power to either ECM fuse - .14v. This could be a false reading by my el-cheapo harbor freight multi-meter, but it's generally fairly accurate +/- a volt or two, and even if it shows power momentarily on a dead circuit, it always drops to 0 after a second or two. A simple "feel test" of the ECM relay under the hood make me believe that it is working, and confirms that there is at least SOME power getting to it. I feel a click if I plug it in with the key in the run position. Since relays can run off very low voltage, I am going on the assumption that the relay is good, but it is not getting power from the fuses.

      What I need to know is where the fuses get their power from - is it directly from the ignition, or does it go from ignition to a relay near INTERIOR fusebox then to fuse (seems that is the case in TDI's) This possible relay seems to carry quite the load on TDI's, and was known to be faulty on early models (earlier than my 2003 in fact). Do both fuses shar the same source power, or do they get their power from separate places?

      Also - does water intrusion from the leaking/clogged sunroof drain affect fuse area? I ask because I have noticed some corrosion on the fuse blades. Not a lot, but enough that I felt it was worth blowing off before reinstalling fuse.

      Can anybody walk me through ECM power from the ECM backwards? Again, I've done the research, but people don't talk a lot about the 2.sl0's, so most of my info comes from the TDI platform. What I "think" is this. Starting at the ECM - I have a ground that should be near the ECM, mounted to a body ground under the wiper cowl. Is this the only ECM ground? For B+, I should have a constant power, and a switched power. The constant comes from one of the fuses mounted over the battery? Are BOTH interior ECM fuses switched - or should one always be live? Where does the power come from for those interior fuses? Obviously, (going backwards) the power ends at the ignition switch (which is another common failure part per my research) - but where does it go in between? Is the fuel pump relay involved here - I read somewhere that the power goes from the ignition to the fuel relay, then on toward the fuses... Is this the case on gassers?

      It's raining today, so I doubt I'll get much done, but here's my plan as of now. Expose ignition switch so I can test/inspect wiring there - try to follow that wiring to or through the fuse box, testing along the way. I considered, but don't like the idea of jumping power to the ECM fuses - seems like that's just asking for trouble - is there a safe way to try that, or is it a "good luck, let me know how THAT goes" kind of thing?

      The slow decay and intermittent nature of this failure just does not point directly to ECM in my opinion. I would expect some rough running or stalling to happen if that were the case. It really seems like a shorted power wire or relay to me. Or I could be wishful thinking... In any case, I'd rather exhaust other options before replacing/rebuilding the current ECM. I saw too many examples of dealers claiming bad computer only to have the problem come back in a few days. Also - If I were to have my ECM rebuilt, would it retain all immobilizer coding, or would I need to have that redone at the dealer just like if I swapped ECU's (new or used)?

      Not sure if it will help or not, But here is my VCDS scan. With the exception of the ECM no comm, the only difference between this and a scan I did in December is the fuel gauge issue (which I knew about - it has done that since the new pump install more than a year ago, though this is the first time it coded) and the radio Databus for Infotainment?? I assume that's probably ECM related?

      Any and all advice is appreciated!

      Marty


      Thursday,04,May,2017,14:11:06:23014
      VCDS -- Windows Based VAG/VAS Emulator Running on Windows 7 x64
      VCDS Version: 17.1.3.0 (x64)
      Data version: 20170320 DS267.7
      www.Ross-Tech.com


      VIN: 3VWSK69M63M026645 License Plate:


      Chassis Type: 9M (9M - VW Jetta IV (1998 > 2014))
      Scan: 01 02 03 08 09 15 16 17 19 22 29 35 36 37 39 46 47 55 56 57
      75 76

      VIN: 3VWSK69M63M026645 Mileage: 306420km-190400miles
      -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      Address 02: Auto Trans Labels: 01M-927-733.lbl
      Part No: 01M 927 733 MG
      Component: AG4 Getriebe 01M 5020
      Coding: 00000
      Shop #: WSC 00000
      VCID: 010783910B50EC49E6-095A

      1 Fault Found:
      01314 - Engine Control Module
      49-00 - No Communications

      -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      Address 03: ABS Brakes Labels: 1C0-907-37x-ASR.lbl
      Part No: 1C0 907 379 K
      Component: ASR FRONT MK60 0103
      Coding: 0018945
      Shop #: WSC 00066 000 00000
      VCID: 32651C5DAE7687D12F-5102

      1 Fault Found:
      01314 - Engine Control Module
      004 - No Signal/Communication

      -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      Address 15: Airbags Labels: 6Q0-909-605-VW5.lbl
      Part No: 6Q0 909 605 A
      Component: 09 AIRBAG VW5 0003
      Coding: 12345
      Shop #: WSC 00066
      VCID: 356F27410F1890E90A-5102

      4 Faults Found:
      00654 - Seat Belt Tensioner Igniter; Driver Side (N153)
      32-10 - Resistance Too High - Intermittent
      01217 - Side Airbag Igniter; Driver Side (N199)
      32-10 - Resistance Too High - Intermittent
      01218 - Side Airbag Igniter; Passenger Side (N200)
      32-10 - Resistance Too High - Intermittent
      00532 - Supply Voltage B+
      07-10 - Signal too Low - Intermittent

      -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      Address 17: Instruments Labels: 1J0-920-xx5-17.lbl
      Part No: 1J0 920 906 K
      Component: KOMBI+WEGFAHRSP VDO V11
      Coding: 07232
      Shop #: WSC 00000
      VCID: 30611655F07AB5C159-50E6
      3VWSK69M63M026645 VWZ7Z0B5370796

      3 Faults Found:
      00771 - Fuel Level Sensor (G)
      30-10 - Open or Short to Plus - Intermittent
      01177 - Engine Control Unit
      64-10 - Not Currently Testable - Intermittent
      01314 - Engine Control Module
      49-00 - No Communications

      -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      Address 19: CAN Gateway Labels: 6N0-909-901-19.lbl
      Part No: 6N0 909 901
      Component: Gateway K<->CAN 0001
      Coding: 00006
      Shop #: WSC 00066
      VCID: 70E1D65530FAF5C119-5102

      1 Fault Found:
      01314 - Engine Control Module
      49-00 - No Communications

      -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      Address 46: Central Conv. Labels: 1C0-959-799.lbl
      Part No: 1C0 959 799 C
      Component: 1H Komfortgerát HLO 0003
      Coding: 00258
      Shop #: WSC 00066
      VCID: 37732D49151462F918-4AE6

      Subsystem 1 - Part No: 1C1959801A
      Component: 1H Tõrsteuer.FS KLO 0004

      Subsystem 2 - Part No: 1C1959802A
      Component: 1H Tõrsteuer.BF KLO 0004

      Subsystem 3 - Part No: 1C0959811A
      Component: 1H Tõrsteuer.HL KLO 0004

      Subsystem 4 - Part No: 1C0959812A
      Component: 1H Tõrsteuer.HR KLO 0004

      1 Fault Found:
      00930 - Locking Module for Central Locking; Rear Left (F222)
      27-00 - Implausible Signal

      -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      Address 56: Radio Labels: 3B7-035-1xx-56.lbl
      Part No: 3B7 035 180
      Component: Radio NP2 0055
      Coding: 00401
      Shop #: WSC 00001
      VCID: 5DBF9FE1D76868A9A2-5102

      5 Faults Found:
      00878 - Connection to Speaker Front Left
      36-00 - Open Circuit
      00879 - Connection to Speaker Front Right
      36-00 - Open Circuit
      00880 - Connection to Speaker Rear Left
      36-00 - Open Circuit
      00881 - Connection to Speaker Rear Right
      36-00 - Open Circuit
      01305 - Databus for Infotainment
      37-10 - Faulty - Intermittent

      End-------------------------(Elapsed Time: 05:02)--------------------------
      Last edited by Gonesh; 05-07-2017 at 10:51 AM.

    2. Member
      Join Date
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      Location
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      05-05-2017 05:40 PM #2
      Marty

      That is a very detailed post!

      Wow lots of codes and lots of problems.

      You are a registered VCDS user so I would also suggest you post this onto Ross Tech's tech forum. There are some very helpful and informative gurus there that help you out




      Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

    3. Junior Member
      Join Date
      Jul 10th, 2016
      Posts
      71
      Vehicles
      VW Bora 2.0 (-00) + project VW Vento 2.0 (-95)
      05-06-2017 06:47 AM #3
      "I hooked up VCDS and get no ECM communication - but I can check the other modules - most report No ECM Communication."

      This is a long shot, but if the car has an aftermarket radio, unplug the radio and any adapter harness from the stock wiring of the vehicle. This is a common cause of no-comm problems in mkIV vehicles.

      Thoroughly inspect the interior fuse box and relays for signs of corrosion and water intrusion, and get those sunroof drains cleared.

    4. 05-06-2017 12:01 PM #4
      Quote Originally Posted by Mr.loops View Post
      Marty

      That is a very detailed post!

      Wow lots of codes and lots of problems.

      You are a registered VCDS user so I would also suggest you post this onto Ross Tech's tech forum. There are some very helpful and informative gurus there that help you out




      Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


      Good call. I'll do that.

    5. 05-06-2017 12:08 PM #5
      Quote Originally Posted by Nugget Beercase View Post
      "I hooked up VCDS and get no ECM communication - but I can check the other modules - most report No ECM Communication."

      This is a long shot, but if the car has an aftermarket radio, unplug the radio and any adapter harness from the stock wiring of the vehicle. This is a common cause of no-comm problems in mkIV vehicles.

      Thoroughly inspect the interior fuse box and relays for signs of corrosion and water intrusion, and get those sunroof drains cleared.

      No aftermarket radio - I knew that would bite me as soon as I realized it was scanable. Water intrusion is my main suspect, followed by ignition or associated wiring. I just don't want to have to open ALL under-dash wiring. I think I'll start at the fuses and work from there.

    6. Member
      Join Date
      May 27th, 2010
      Location
      Kelowna, B.C.
      Posts
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      Vehicles
      1997 Jetta GLS, 1991 Jetta 1.8L, 92 1.8L Golf
      05-06-2017 12:18 PM #6
      Quote Originally Posted by Gonesh View Post
      No aftermarket radio - I knew that would bite me as soon as I realized it was scanable. Water intrusion is my main suspect, followed by ignition or associated wiring. I just don't want to have to open ALL under-dash wiring. I think I'll start at the fuses and work from there.
      If you suspect water intrusion, a submerged/corroded CCM may be the cause of the no comm error

      As the other posted mentioned you may something ( radio/module) causing this fault


      Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

    7. 05-06-2017 01:22 PM #7
      Quote Originally Posted by Mr.loops View Post
      If you suspect water intrusion, a submerged/corroded CCM may be the cause of the no comm error

      As the other posted mentioned you may something ( radio/module) causing this fault


      Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
      Hmmm. Would that be involved in running the seat heaters? Driver side stopped working before I got the car - but I haven't messed with it because it seems it would be easiest to change out the whole seat.

    8. 05-07-2017 10:50 AM #8
      Not a huge deal - but I was corrected in the Ross forum - My engine is actually the AVH - not AEG. I am also working on a 2000 model, so I swapped the two in my head... I've updated the original post to reflect the proper engine.

    9. 05-19-2017 09:56 AM #9
      I figured it out. Short answer - it was the ignition coil. If you want to see the diag procedure AND pictures of the actual problem - shoot over to the Ross-Tech forums and check the thread there. LOTS of good info provided by some very knowledgeable guys. In the end - it serves as a reminder that just because a code (or lack of) seems to point to a specific component, you MUST diagnose. ECM costs $300 - $1000 including coding - a Denso ignition coil was just over $100.

      Here's the thread link - http://forums.ross-tech.com/showthre...ubts-Long-Post

      Good luck!

    10. Member
      Join Date
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      Location
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      Vehicles
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      05-19-2017 10:46 AM #10
      Awesome!
      Thanks for the follow up


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