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    Thread: Blue Monday - R32 vs. EVO vs. STI

    1. 06-05-2003 11:43 AM #351
      Quote, originally posted by apexjapan »
      I think everybody is getting a bit too worked up defending their virtual turf.
      The Evo, the STi and the R32 all drive differently, they feel different, they accelerate different, they look different, and if it's your thing, they most likely taste different. Arguing magazine stats till you are blue in the face won't change the fact that different people will like different cars despite any shortcomings in magazine races.
      I doubt that anybody arguing about the fine points of lap time differences here is actually driving any of the cars in mention. Pure and simple, they are all capable of speeds and handling that is higher than the limits of most drivers here. On the track, it's a different matter, but all of the vehicles in this test will most likely spend a majority of time on the street. So for some people, the amenities of the R32 will outweight the performance of the Evo or STi. And for other people, the handling of the Evo will outweight the acceleration of the STi or the amenities of the R32.
      They all are great cars. Enjoy the fact that they are finally available in the States.
      Cheers,
      Paul Hansen


      Dude knows what he's talking about. Not only is the JDM Legacy RSK he drives top dog in Japan's sedan market, but as a writer for Apex (read his articles) he's probably driven, and track tested more of these cars in more badges and forms than the rest of us combined.
      It all comes down to personal preferences. That's what makes brand management so successful. All things being equal (though they're not here), folks are loyal to certain brands and that's that. Nothing wrong about it. Just a fact.



      Modified by vr6y at 8:44 AM 6-5-2003

    2. Banned Integrale's Avatar
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      06-05-2003 11:52 AM #352
      Quote, originally posted by Chris V »
      Funny, the thing that gets me most is this emphasis on the comfort of daily drivers... Coming from the position of somone who has loved daily driving in a 20 year old Fiat convertible, with more rattles shakes and wind noise than any of these cars (and more harsh autocross suspension that the harshest of them), as well as a string of other cars of it's ilk (like an autocross Rabbit, old British sports cars, Porsche racers, and all), all of them are comfortable enough to be a daily driver, and with EPA and DOT regs met, all are going to be quieter, too.
      This is why I see the emphasis on the numbers. None of them are as harsh or loud as the old cars many of us already drive daily. if I wanted more comfort in a daily driver, I already had a $500 Cadillac Fleetwood. i'f I'm going to spend $30-40k on a performance car, I want the most performance I can get from it, as they are already more comfortable than the much lower performing daily drivers I already had.

      This is all relative....most of the today's buyers of STI's and EVO's are not yesterday's buyers of Fleetwoods. So they only have or rememeber today's cars to compare to.

    3. Banned Integrale's Avatar
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      06-05-2003 11:57 AM #353
      Quote, originally posted by WReXinEFX »
      Yes, this applies to you but I know many enthusiats that bought the EVO or STI are spending $5-15k to make them into Rally or track monsters or just the drag strip king.

      Really? I thought you guys were boasting about how easy and cheap it is to make them faster than almost anything else for a measly $500-$1000...I guess it must be inflation.

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      06-05-2003 12:09 PM #354
      Quote, originally posted by Integrale »
      Really? I thought you guys were boasting about how easy and cheap it is to make them faster than almost anything else for a measly $500-$1000...I guess it must be inflation.

      I think the above demonstrates personal attack and lack of judgement.
      It depends on what the owner's goal is, many people have higher goals to address not only speed but handling, looks, and durability.
      I've spent only $400 so far on performance on my WRX and has already yielded more than my $2500 spent on my Jetta.

    5. 06-05-2003 12:33 PM #355
      Y'know, I thought my posts made it obvious, but apparently not. Sigh.
      OK, if you could only afford *one* of these things, and needed to use it
      for your daily commute, and for moving lots of stuff, and for listening to tunes,
      and for heading out on long, straight, boring drives, and for the occasional
      autocross, and for winter duty, and for going to Best Buy and putting a large
      TV in the back, which one do you choose?
      R32.
      Now, if you're willing to put up without all of the above, or already have
      a daily commuter, then Evo or STI, according to preference. Personally
      I'd still choose the R32, but I've always preferred the solid German feel.
      I even prefer Bmer motorcycles, though I'd get blown off the road
      by the modern racebikes.
      Simply the fact that the R32 *could* get within 1 sec. of lap times on a
      closed course, considering the tires, and considering that it can do all
      of the above, is pretty friggin cool, *especially* considering that VW hasn't
      produced anything even close to that kind of performance in quite a
      while. So, yeah, it's no wonder us VW enthusiasts are going gaga over
      the R32!!!
      Once again, thanks for the review!
      adoniram7
      "None of you understand. I'm not locked up in here with you. You're locked up in here with me."

    6. 06-05-2003 01:46 PM #356
      Quote, originally posted by adoniram7 »
      Y'know, I thought my posts made it obvious, but apparently not. Sigh.
      OK, if you could only afford *one* of these things, and needed to use it
      for your daily commute, and for moving lots of stuff, and for listening to tunes,
      and for heading out on long, straight, boring drives, and for the occasional
      autocross, and for winter duty, and for going to Best Buy and putting a large
      TV in the back, which one do you choose?
      R32.
      Now, if you're willing to put up without all of the above, or already have
      a daily commuter, then Evo or STI, according to preference. Personally
      I'd still choose the R32, but I've always preferred the solid German feel.
      I even prefer Bmer motorcycles, though I'd get blown off the road
      by the modern racebikes.
      Simply the fact that the R32 *could* get within 1 sec. of lap times on a
      closed course, considering the tires, and considering that it can do all
      of the above, is pretty friggin cool, *especially* considering that VW hasn't
      produced anything even close to that kind of performance in quite a
      while. So, yeah, it's no wonder us VW enthusiasts are going gaga over
      the R32!!!
      Once again, thanks for the review!
      adoniram7

      READ...we VW enthusiast like the R32 regardless of what it is or isn't capable of... we aren't trying to convert the EVO and STI lovers into R32 fanatics...If you had a bad experience with VW i'm sorry, it doesn't change my experience and what I want out of a $30K car... to me and some other VW enthusiast the R32 is it, it is the car, it means for us 'stop looking, you've found it'. If you like the EVO and or STI, go ahead and continue to like it, there is nothing wrong with either car.

    7. Banned Integrale's Avatar
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      06-05-2003 02:10 PM #357
      Quote, originally posted by WReXinEFX »
      I think the above demonstrates personal attack and lack of judgement.
      It depends on what the owner's goal is, many people have higher goals to address not only speed but handling, looks, and durability.
      I've spent only $400 so far on performance on my WRX and has already yielded more than my $2500 spent on my Jetta.

      For certain reasons you feel it's personal because you take it that way...I must have hit a nerve.
      I'm just pointing out the multitude of contradictions your comments have strewed along the entire thread.
      Your insistence on how superior your Subaru is to other people's cars on this forum is alarming and demonstrates a clear complex of some sort.
      If it's that important for you to let everyone know here that your Subaru is superior then so be it. You win.

    8. 06-05-2003 02:17 PM #358
      Quote, originally posted by gizmopop »
      what if it is a first gear turn?

      if you slow down enough to be out of boost in first gear then you are not racing right.
      Quote, originally posted by gizmopop »
      Or a turn where the time it takes longer to shift down then back up again than just leaving it in the same gear?

      I don't understand what do you mean by "takes longer to shift down", you mean the turn is too long? or the shifting down process is too long??? Anyways, if you are not racing then of cause anyways you drive it is going to be ok as long as the car moves. but if you are racing then why be lazy to shift down then back up? Anyways, you can always leave it in lower gear when taking a turn.

    9. 06-05-2003 02:17 PM #359
      Chris, I think the problem is that many people just don't have the space to have their daily driver, their track car, rally car at their homes/apartments etc. I think many people here just want one car that does all of that, and can't afford/have the space for a number of new cars.
      My m3 fits the bill for me as a daily driver/fun weekend car, but its still too new for me to subject it to daily driving all the time, thats why i kept my passat(it also helped that I paid it off years ago).
      AS im sure you are aware, most cars now adays are getting plusher and plusher its pretty hard to find a new base model car (it took me sevarl weeks to locate a passat with no options on it when I bought it new). I personally spend around 2 hours aday in my car so I like having a nice interior. In the summer I use my motorcycle, thats not much fun in stop and go traffic. My next daily driver will probably be an old diesel golf, purely because of fuel economy, not becxause of the interior.

      If I was a younger college guy with no commute (im only 25 now), practicality/luxury would loose out and all out performance would be my convern. I make enough money now that I can at least own both a reasonably luxurious daily driver and a hard core track car(which my M3 most definatly is not), but I choose not too, however it seems like many here are struggling to make that choie.
      Whether most posters can afford these cars is another issue, then again they dont cost that much more than the average familiy sedan.
      I agree with you, most 30-40k cars of today are far more luxurious than their forebearers.

    10. 06-05-2003 02:29 PM #360
      Quote, originally posted by MyGolf18t »
      if you slow down enough to be out of boost in first gear then you are not racing right.
      I don't understand what do you mean by "takes longer to shift down", you mean the turn is too long? or the shifting down process is too long??? Anyways, if you are not racing then of cause anyways you drive it is going to be ok as long as the car moves. but if you are racing then why be lazy to shift down then back up? Anyways, you can always leave it in lower gear when taking a turn.

      Taking longer to shift down(getting into the meat of the power curve in a lower gear) only to be there momentarily to then shift up again once you're out of the turn, versus staying in the higher gear(since the larger displacement engine has more torque down low) through out the turn. sometimes the latter technique is faster through a turn.
      Obviously all this is relative and doesn't apply to every corner...

    11. 06-05-2003 02:37 PM #361
      Quote, originally posted by gizmopop »
      READ...we VW enthusiast like the R32 regardless of what it is or isn't capable of... we aren't trying to convert the EVO and STI lovers into R32 fanatics...If you had a bad experience with VW i'm sorry, it doesn't change my experience and what I want out of a $30K car... to me and some other VW enthusiast the R32 is it, it is the car, it means for us 'stop looking, you've found it'. If you like the EVO and or STI, go ahead and continue to like it, there is nothing wrong with either car.

      Yup! Excellent paraphrase.
      I only *wish* I could take an STI and do off-road rallying!!! More than any
      other kind of racing out there, flying along a dirt road would be my choice.
      adoniram7
      "None of you understand. I'm not locked up in here with you. You're locked up in here with me."

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      06-05-2003 02:43 PM #362
      Quote, originally posted by Integrale »
      This is all relative....most of the today's buyers of STI's and EVO's are not yesterday's buyers of Fleetwoods. So they only have or rememeber today's cars to compare to.

      I agree. Which is why I bring it up, as there are still a lot of people out there comfortably driving cars that would make each of the cars in this test ride and sound like limosines.
      And there's a difference between "yesterday's buyers of Fleetwoods" and "buyers of yesterday's Fleetwoods..." Those of us who buy these cars as cheap old daily beaters are different than those who bought those cars new. I'd have never bought that car new, but as a $500 beater, it makes perfect economic sense to rely on it for a year or so if you want a comfy daily driver that isn't an all out performance car. Even if you have to put up with the inconvenience of the occasional repair (which a lot of VW owners seem to have to) your TCO is exceedingly small, and fits that job perfectly.
      It almost makes sense to get one of those at the same time as you buy one of these, as then you comfy old car can be the commute to work one, leaving the toy to be performance oriented without spending a bunch of money on a compromised car. And you can take advantage of a multiple vehicle insurance discount, with the cheap car as your primary driver...

    13. Member Hajduk's Avatar
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      06-05-2003 02:50 PM #363
      Leave it to Chris V to settle the 10-page Blue Monday debate with a 20 year-old Caddy.

    14. 06-05-2003 03:52 PM #364
      In respect to the other Blue Monday....

      http://www.neworderretro.com/
      http://www.wmuk-newmedia.co.uk...o.asx


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      06-05-2003 04:27 PM #365
      Quote, originally posted by adoniram7 »
      I even prefer Bmer motorcycles, though I'd get blown off the road by the modern racebikes.

      nah, you'd be laughed off the road first.

    16. Member a2a4raddo's Avatar
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      06-05-2003 04:29 PM #366
      Quote, originally posted by stephenSI »
      nah, you'd be laughed off the road first.


      many ppl ride BMW bikes, they are thee most reliable bikes on the road, i have yet too see any bike other then a BMW with over 250K on the clock and still running strong, they are extremly smooth(crank driven), easy to ride and comfortable. many ppl who enjoy riding and taking long trips on bikes...love BMW bikes for these reasons.
      if anybody would do the laughing, it would be me laughing at your Si [cough]chic car[cough]

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      06-05-2003 04:35 PM #367
      Quote, originally posted by a2a4raddo »

      many ppl ride BMW bikes, they are thee most reliable bikes on the road, i have yet too see any bike other then a BMW with over 250K on the clock and still running strong, they are extremly smooth(crank driven), easy to ride and comfortable. many ppl who enjoy riding and taking long trips on bikes...love BMW bikes for these reasons.
      if anybody would do the laughing, it would be me laughing at your Si [cough]chic car[cough]

      tell that to the rest of the motorcycle community. they're still laughing.

    18. Member a2a4raddo's Avatar
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      06-05-2003 04:49 PM #368
      no need too, in fact one my my freinds own a CBR600F4i and a K1200RS. so by your logic, he laughs at himself ehh? dolt!
      EDIT* BTW, i'm still laughing at your "chic" car, errr i mean minivan.

    19. 06-05-2003 04:57 PM #369
      Hey man -
      Even my Harley-riding, motorbike mechanic best buddy admits
      that BMW bikes are the best-built, best-engineered and best
      overall touring bikes around.
      If you want to be the fastest, buy a donor cycle. If you want
      to put 10,000 miles a year on a bike that won't let you down
      on the side of the road, ride a BMW.
      OK, enough on BMW motorcycles.
      Whatever happened to the rule of, "If you don't have something nice to
      say about someone else's GF, car, etc., don't say anything at all?"
      Maybe Napoleon *was* right.
      adoniram7
      "None of you understand. I'm not locked up in here with you. You're locked up in here with me."

    20. 06-05-2003 05:01 PM #370
      Quote, originally posted by Chris V »
      It almost makes sense to get one of those at the same time as you buy one of these, as then you comfy old car can be the commute to work one, leaving the toy to be performance oriented without spending a bunch of money on a compromised car. And you can take advantage of a multiple vehicle insurance discount, with the cheap car as your primary driver...

      Dang there's an echo around here. ;-)
      Yup, I'll agree: today's cars have a lot less NVH than the earlier stuff.
      Perhaps it's just that in comparison, the STI and EVO have more NVH,
      and maybe we've all gotten used to it.
      OTOH, there's a whole lot more noise of every kind in the world on
      today's roads: faster speeds means more noise generated from
      all of the vehicles on the road, not to mention wind noise, road noise,
      and so on. So, maybe we need less NVH due to these changes...???
      adoniram7
      "None of you understand. I'm not locked up in here with you. You're locked up in here with me."

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      06-06-2003 07:29 PM #371
      I just read this entire thread
      Look at the small track...that is the only reason why the R32 was even able to be "close" to the STI and EVO.
      Question: Why were the STI, EVO and R32 even in the same article? Both the EVo and STi will rape the R32 to 60mph by 2 seconds. This is a very very longtime. Imagine the STI blowing by, then count 1 mississippi, 2 mississippi, now the R32 comes by. Both the EVO and STI will better the R32 in the 1/4 mile by around 1.5 seconds (which is probably by 15-20 car lengths, please correct me if I'm wrong). Are the EVO and STI better than the R32 because of better tires?? Common...
      Although things were not explicitly said, there were implicit overtones that the R32 can hang with those two bad boys which is simply not true. The STI and EVO are race cars in street legal form, while the R32 is a street car in racing clothes. They are very different.
      You are comparing 2 apples to an orange dipped in apple sauce.
      Common...

    22. Member a2a4raddo's Avatar
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      06-06-2003 07:43 PM #372
      doesnt sound like you read even half the thread

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      06-06-2003 07:46 PM #373
      Yes I did...I'm just stating my opinion about the article.

    24. 06-07-2003 03:31 AM #374

    25. Senior Member MFZERO's Avatar
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      06-07-2003 03:36 AM #375
      that's a great pic [IMG]http://**********************/smile/emthup.gif[/IMG]

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