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    Thread: Blue Monday - R32 vs. EVO vs. STI

    1. 12-10-2003 03:38 PM #491
      Quote, originally posted by Professor Gascan »

      Question for you: how do you think you have a 2002 WRX STI in north america?

      Sorry to ruin it for everyone but this topic has been bugging me for quite a while

      From what I have learned in the forums, STI is a performance accessories/parts supplier for Subaru

      The WRX STI model is an independent automobile factory tuned by STI

      Many people know this and purchase STI parts for their WRX automobiles. Some will explain that even though they have STI insignia on their car, it is not an actual STI

      Others, like WReXinEFX ?!?! simply refer to their car as a "WRX STI" even though it is only "STI-Equipped"

      I'm not sure why people do that, but I guess it's a confidence-booster for some


    2. 12-10-2003 04:02 PM #492
      Quote, originally posted by Gumby17 »

      Sorry to ruin it for everyone but this topic has been bugging me for quite a while

      From what I have learned in the forums, STI is a performance accessories/parts supplier for Subaru

      The WRX STI model is an independent automobile factory tuned by STI

      Many people know this and purchase STI parts for their WRX automobiles. Some will explain that even though they have STI insignia on their car, it is not an actual STI

      Others, like WReXinEFX ?!?! simply refer to their car as a "WRX STI" even though it is only "STI-Equipped"

      I'm not sure why people do that, but I guess it's a confidence-booster for some

      Ding ding ding....
      But the difference is that WReXinEFX has the engine and tranny from an STI.. so i guess it is almost a complete STi

      On a given day, a given circumstance, you think you have a limit. And you then go for this limit and you touch this limit, and you think, 'Okay, this is the limit.' As soon as you touch this limit, something happens and you suddenly can go a little bit further. With your mind power, your determination, your instinct, and the experience as well, you can fly very high - Ayton Senna

    3. 12-10-2003 04:19 PM #493
      No he claims he has the engine and tranny. Of course he is unable to answer any questions regarding these items which led us to conclude he was lying. (He can change perception at any time)

      And as for the "STI" argument, unless STI built it, it is not and can never be considered a STI- much as regardless of how you equip or build a Mustang or Cobra it will never be a "Shelby" unless Shelby built it.


    4. Member Professor Gascan's Avatar
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      12-10-2003 04:25 PM #494
      Quote, originally posted by Whirling_Dervish »

      And as for the "STI" argument, unless STI built it, it is not and can never be considered a STI- much as regardless of how you equip or build a Mustang or Cobra it will never be a "Shelby" unless Shelby built it.

      My thoughts exactly. I don't care if you have all the parts of an Integra Type R, if it didn't leave the factory that way, it's not a type R.

      Quis Mulgere Ipsos Lac Homines

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      12-10-2003 04:28 PM #495
      Quote, originally posted by Whirling_Dervish »
      No he claims he has the engine and tranny. Of course he is unable to answer any questions regarding these items which led us to conclude he was lying. (He can change perception at any time)

      And as for the "STI" argument, unless STI built it, it is not and can never be considered a STI- much as regardless of how you equip or build a Mustang or Cobra it will never be a "Shelby" unless Shelby built it.

      Your persistence doesn't mean a thing to me. Whatever you chose to perceive is your reality.


    6. 12-10-2003 04:31 PM #496
      leaving the STI or not real STI agrument, why is it taking that much to take delivery of a R32 in the states, i've seen some here in mexico and usually mexican vw (save the polo) are already USspec, is there something im missing now????????

    7. 12-10-2003 04:34 PM #497
      I have no clue either. If they are already available in Mexico, i wonder why the States do not have them.
      On a given day, a given circumstance, you think you have a limit. And you then go for this limit and you touch this limit, and you think, 'Okay, this is the limit.' As soon as you touch this limit, something happens and you suddenly can go a little bit further. With your mind power, your determination, your instinct, and the experience as well, you can fly very high - Ayton Senna

    8. 12-10-2003 04:44 PM #498
      Why do you even bother us with this? Go pretend you have a STI, or better yet linger on the Sube forum where they believe your BS...

      I'd much rather talk about the R32 in COMPARISON with the Evo and STI.


    9. 12-10-2003 04:46 PM #499
      Now that is strange. I don't know much about the Mexican market, but isn't the US more lucrative for VW? You'd think it would come here first. Maybe its a proximity to factory thing, though I thought they were built in Germany.

    10. 12-10-2003 04:53 PM #500
      Quote, originally posted by Whirling_Dervish »
      Now that is strange. I don't know much about the Mexican market, but isn't the US more lucrative for VW? You'd think it would come here first. Maybe its a proximity to factory thing, though I thought they were built in Germany.

      well i guess the US market is more lucrative than mexico but not by a lot (mxVW dominates the compact market with the jetta)

      but thats the point of my previous post, why given that the USmkt is more important when talking about marketing, i find very strange that you don't have it yet.


    11. Member Professor Gascan's Avatar
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      12-10-2003 04:59 PM #501
      Quote, originally posted by pato »
      leaving the STI or not real STI agrument, why is it taking that much to take delivery of a R32 in the states, i've seen some here in mexico and usually mexican vw (save the polo) are already USspec, is there something im missing now????????

      The safety and emission standards in Mexico are somewhat less stringent to what is required to sell a car in the US. So, if VW can sell the car in Mexico without further development, and get it on sale faster, they're going to do it. For the most part, the US spec cars are built in Mexico, so they sell them there. Something like the Polo, where safety standards and such have kept it out of the US, is not a problem to sell in Mexico.

      Quis Mulgere Ipsos Lac Homines

    12. Geriatric Member Chapel's Avatar
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      12-10-2003 05:03 PM #502
      ... if you guys keep arguing about this Wrexinefx's 'STi"
      Im gonna start putting in ban requests...
      knock it off.
      its been done to death
      the horse has been beaten into a fine brown powder

    13. Member Professor Gascan's Avatar
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      12-10-2003 05:07 PM #503
      Quote, originally posted by Chapel »
      the horse has been beaten into a fine brown powder

      You mean glue? Or perhaps Jell-O?

      Quis Mulgere Ipsos Lac Homines

    14. Member Daemon42's Avatar
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      12-10-2003 05:18 PM #504
      Quote, originally posted by pato »
      leaving the STI or not real STI agrument, why is it taking that much to take delivery of a R32 in the states, i've seen some here in mexico and usually mexican vw (save the polo) are already USspec, is there something im missing now????????

      The Mexican models are Euro-spec (all R32's built in Bratislava Slovakia BTW). The US-spec
      models can't use the OEM HIDs, and there's some other subtle changes. But mainly the delay
      comes from two things.
      1. R32 was never originally meant to come to the US
      2. European demand far outstripped supply.

      The R32 story as I've pieced it together from the various information that flowed in
      here and from other sources (maybe jamie can correct anything I mess up badly enough)
      was this.

      VAG originally intended to only make 5000 R32s, period. And it wasn't going to
      come to the US. Too bad for us.. Due in no small part to the lobbying of the enthusiast community
      here (remember the original semi-official VW R32 poll on the Vortex over a year ago?), plus
      the fact that Piech sorta wanted to show it off anyway (VWoA wasn't asking for it though), they
      made the decision about last October, to send some to us. At that time they weren't yet on the roads
      in any volume so European demand wasn't known. They figured they'd sell about 3000 of them elsewhere
      as a high priced specialty model with fairly low demand, and 1700-2000 would come to the US (enough to
      ensure that every VW dealer had a chance at one).

      Then they started selling like hotcakes. Seriously high demand. About the same time
      we get confirmation from VW via Jamie that it's coming. VWoA doesn't
      make an official announcement until the Detroit auto show in January
      and their best ETA for US delivery is "late summer 2003". That coincides
      with the latter part of the initial production run of 5000 (which eventually did finish up in October).
      By February it's pretty obvious that European (and world) demand is much much
      higher than expected. They decide to try to fill that demand
      (where they're selling the car for $35-40k USD) instead of cutting
      it short for our benefit, and their loss (they promised us it'd come for "under $30k").
      They decide to allocate the entire first run of 5000 to non-US countries (Australia got left
      out in the cold too).

      As a side story, they appeared to have always planned to build some
      DSG R32's near the end of the initial production run. So the availability/non-availability
      of DSG in the US follows their initial allocation plan. If they'd built 1000 DSG R32s
      and our original total US allocation had been say.. 1700 cars, then we'd have seen
      maybe 700 6spds, and 1000 DSGs. Or perhaps ony some fraction of
      the DSG R32s here, and some elsewhere. As it became obvious that
      more and more R32s were going to be sold outside the US, it pushed the US
      allocation beyond the 6spds, and there was actually a short time
      where there was a rumor from multiple sources that the US would get *only* DSG R32s
      (last ones off the line). There was a large outcry, lots of polls.. etc.. The rumor was
      never officially confirmed or denied, but it simply ceased to be relevant once they scrapped
      the idea of us getting the leftovers from the first run and deciding to start a new
      production run just for us, away went the DSG R32s as well.

      Ok.. so they finally decided to do a second full run of R32s somewhere around
      Feb/March timeframe. I dug up a thread a couple weeks ago from that timeframe
      where they were already talking about the first "delay", which pushed
      the ETA back from "late summer" (which was *always* the earliest official timeframe)
      to "end of the year". In the meantime they sold out the entire first run in Europe
      and other countries in like 2-3 months.
      They made some DSG R32's.. later found them to be unreliable, and otherwise
      finished off the first production run early/mid October timeframe.
      (At which time there were a number of rumors that we were not in fact
      getting any R32s because "production has stopped". *sigh* Some people.) We had
      already figured out some time before then that "end of the year" was more likely going
      to be first quarter 2004, so that was the second delay. Yes, that's right,
      there's only been two delays of the US-spec R32.

      They told Jamie and others that US production would start between week 45 and 48.
      Turns out it started week 44 (last week of October/first week of November),
      and so far everything is looking on track for the first ones to hit dealer lots
      early February, with most of the current allocations in the midwest and possibly eastern
      regions. The rest will trickle in mid/late Feb, March timeframe to the rest of the
      regions. There should also be a couple US-spec examples on our shores in the next
      couple weeks as some dealers get cars that will ultimately go to auto shows, and then be
      sold. (We've heard from one dealer to this effect).

      As of right now, some people already have VINs for their R32's and dealer computers
      are showing ETAs consistent with what I've said above.
      All told, the "official" release date was delayed about 6 months. Not bad
      considering we weren't supposed to get em in the first place.

      ian




      Modified by Daemon42 at 3:19 PM 12-10-2003


    15. 12-10-2003 05:20 PM #505
      Quote, originally posted by Chapel »
      ... if you guys keep arguing about this Wrexinefx's 'STi"
      Im gonna start putting in ban requests...
      knock it off.
      its been done to death
      the horse has been beaten into a fine brown powder

      I do think we have made a effort to move on from that....but thanks.


    16. 12-10-2003 05:30 PM #506
      Quote, originally posted by Professor Gascan »

      The safety and emission standards in Mexico are somewhat less stringent to what is required to sell a car in the US.

      FYI safety standars in Mexico require the car to be certified in the USA or in Europe. If the model wa introduced to the market there are no new requirment every Model Year.

      Emission Standards are like 1 year behind Califonia's so its pretty strict.


    17. 12-10-2003 05:31 PM #507
      Quote, originally posted by Daemon42 »

      The Mexican models are Euro-spec (all R32's built in Bratislava Slovakia BTW). The US-spec
      models can't use the OEM HIDs, and there's some other subtle changes. .

      I wasn't aware of that, thanks.

      And for the rest of the post WOW!!! great info


    18. Geriatric Member Chapel's Avatar
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      12-10-2003 05:31 PM #508
      Quote, originally posted by Whirling_Dervish »

      I do think we have made a effort to move on from that....but thanks.

      a fine mist of dead horse...


    19. 12-10-2003 07:00 PM #509
      Quote, originally posted by Whirling_Dervish »
      Now that is strange. I don't know much about the Mexican market, but isn't the US more lucrative for VW? You'd think it would come here first.

      Typical arrogant American viewpoint...not even going to elaborate on that as it has been clearly illustrated already

      What I will say is this:

      At one time 1/3 of the population drove Volkswagen in Mexico (largely before Nissan stepped in with popular models like the Tsuru and Tsuru II that ate up economy buyers' money)

      Of course Volkswagen is going to want to make that happen again.

      Also, not everything comes out in the United States first. This country is one of the most neglected in terms of the best automobiles ever making its way across the world's shores.

      On that note, I'm going to the Seat Mexico site to drool over the Leon Cupra R

      Quote »
      Maybe its a proximity to factory thing, though I thought they were built in Germany.

      As many other people did. Volkswagen is a global company, and I guess some people are never going to realize that.


    20. 12-10-2003 07:51 PM #510
      Quote, originally posted by pato »

      Emission Standards (in Mexico) are like 1 year behind Califonia's so its pretty strict.

      How is it then, that Mexican aircooled beetles just finished their final run this year? I'm not familiar with the emission standards there, so please help me understand if Mexico is going to ULEV or ZEV for 2004 or low sulfur fuel for diesels with particulate filters.


    21. 12-10-2003 11:23 PM #511
      Quote, originally posted by Bahnburner »

      How is it then, that Mexican aircooled beetles just finished their final run this year? I'm not familiar with the emission standards there, so please help me understand if Mexico is going to ULEV or ZEV for 2004 or low sulfur fuel for diesels with particulate filters.

      shure!, the point is that the aircooled beetles were runing LEV, if u know they were fuel injected, not carbourated. so they did pass emissions test. what they didn't was safety (i explained before)

      Mexico is going ULEV for the next year, right know i can't give you precise info about the specs for the emission control, but i'll post them later ok.

      Also in mexico the emissions thing is not like in the states that to be qualified you have to stay in the same rating it had when the model first came to the mkt. No, we have 3 stages, 0, 1 and 2, stage 0 is that you comply the most strict test and then you are able to drive your car everyday of the week, stage 1 is you fall in the 2nd rank on the scale and therefore you can't drive your car one day of the week, and stage 2 is that you fell in the lower acceptable range, thus you still can't drive your car one day of the week, and in a contingency plan you can't drive your car 2 days of the week.

      Sadly we dont have a real emission test for cars using diesel, but then again there are no disel cars sold in Mx so far.


    22. 12-11-2003 08:16 AM #512
      Thanks for the info, pato! I think I learned something! Now, back to R32 for a moment. The HPA R32 twin turbo in European Car turned a 3.4 0-60 with a stick...a DSG transmission setup would be faster? If that's the case, wow!

    23. 12-11-2003 10:00 AM #513
      Quote, originally posted by Gumby17 »

      Typical arrogant American viewpoint...not even going to elaborate on that as it has been clearly illustrated already

      What I will say is this:

      At one time 1/3 of the population drove Volkswagen in Mexico (largely before Nissan stepped in with popular models like the Tsuru and Tsuru II that ate up economy buyers' money)

      Of course Volkswagen is going to want to make that happen again.

      Also, not everything comes out in the United States first. This country is one of the most neglected in terms of the best automobiles ever making its way across the world's shores.

      On that note, I'm going to the Seat Mexico site to drool over the Leon Cupra R

      As many other people did. Volkswagen is a global company, and I guess some people are never going to realize that.

      Arrogant? How is that arrogant?? Of the two markets, which is most important in VW's quest to travel upmarket? Is it the one with the most disposable income or the one with less?

      Golfs and Jettas are major products in all their markets, but the products with the most profit built into them in my observation seem to be targeting America and Europe(Toureg/Phaeton). Therefore VW is obviously trying to garner the most from their most profitible markets, the U.S. and Europe(at least until China takes off). That's not arrogance, that's just the reality of things for now. If I'm wrong please demonstrate how.


    24. 12-11-2003 12:32 PM #514
      Quote, originally posted by Whirling_Dervish »

      Arrogant? How is that arrogant?? Of the two markets, which is most important in VW's quest to travel upmarket? Is it the one with the most disposable income or the one with less?

      Golfs and Jettas are major products in all their markets, but the products with the most profit built into them in my observation seem to be targeting America and Europe(Toureg/Phaeton). Therefore VW is obviously trying to garner the most from their most profitible markets, the U.S. and Europe(at least until China takes off). That's not arrogance, that's just the reality of things for now. If I'm wrong please demonstrate how.

      First, you are assuming that there is not enough disposable income in Mexico for VW to profit heavily. That's wrong.

      Mexico is a third world country - while there is poverty, there's a force keeping it that way. The Rich ! Mexico has a population of wealthy people who are willing to spend excessively just like any other in the United States or Europe. Also, those people who CAN afford cars are going to purchase what is most accessible. Volkswagens aren't that difficult to obtain at good prices for people who can afford to purchase cars.

      Also, I've already explained that at one time 1/3 of the population drove Volkswagen in Mexico. That's a lot of people, and that's a great deal of influence that an auto manufacturer is exercising. In Mexico the Puebla factory has greater importance than auto factories do here. Lots of people buy VWs. LOTS. It's not like here in the United States. There's a huge difference in the way people buy vehicles there, and it shows. Ever walk around Mexico City ? Well if you get a chance, you will understand what I am trying to say.

      Also this is a list some of the cars my family owned when I was growing up:

      - Father owned 1985 Beetle
      - Mother owned 3 Caribes/Rabbits in the 80's
      - Grandparents owned 1973 VW Thing
      - 1 Aunt owned Caribe/Rabbit in 1996
      - 1 Aunt owned 1985 Golf in 1996
      - 1 Uncle owned 1983 Beetle in 1996
      - 1 Uncle owned a Blue Caribe/Rabbit in 1996
      - 1 Aunt and Uncle owned a 1996 Jetta GL

      The rest of my family who bought cars either owned old Ford or Chevrolet trucks, and one of my uncles drove a company-issued Oldsmobile since he worked for Pemex.



      Modified by Gumby17 at 12:34 PM 12-11-2003


    25. 12-11-2003 01:56 PM #515
      15 Pages of hate...! From Mexico to Japan all over a car...
      I understand the points alot of people on this thread but come on
      alot of this is endlessssssssssssssssssssss rhetoric.

    26. 12-11-2003 02:22 PM #516
      Quote, originally posted by Gumby17 »

      First, you are assuming that there is not enough disposable income in Mexico for VW to profit heavily. That's wrong.


      Modified by Gumby17 at 12:34 PM 12-11-2003

      No I'm not. I'm demonstrating that the US is a more profitible market for VW, which is why they rely on this market(and Europe) for the success of its most profit laden vehicles. Those are the Toureg, Phaeton, and Passat. VW sells multitudes of Golfs and Jettas, but those are not profit heavy cars. Disposable income was used as an indicator, and at no time was said that Mexico had none or very little of it. The US has more, that is what was said and is in no way a slight against Mexico. But that is a fact.

      Don't be so damn sensitive. Its like a tall person saying they are taller than someone else(which would be fact) and the other guy complaining they were just called short, when the simple fact is just that the other guy is taller. No insults was said or implied, just a statement of fact.


    27. 12-11-2003 07:18 PM #517
      Quote, originally posted by Whirling_Dervish »

      No I'm not. I'm demonstrating that the US is a more profitible market for VW, which is why they rely on this market(and Europe) for the success of its most profit laden vehicles. Those are the Toureg, Phaeton, and Passat. VW sells multitudes of Golfs and Jettas, but those are not profit heavy cars. Disposable income was used as an indicator, and at no time was said that Mexico had none or very little of it. The US has more, that is what was said and is in no way a slight against Mexico. But that is a fact.

      Don't be so damn sensitive. Its like a tall person saying they are taller than someone else(which would be fact) and the other guy complaining they were just called short, when the simple fact is just that the other guy is taller. No insults was said or implied, just a statement of fact.

      No one is being "so damn sensitive" - it's just that you demonstrated the typical expectation that many Americans have when it comes to popular products making their ways over the ocean to be sold here. "WE'RE supposed to get all the cool stuff, not THEM first ! It's not supposed to be that way !"

      It's not your fault though, it's just what you are led to believe. If I had any problem acknowledging that the United States has a more powerful economy, I wouldn't have stressed that Mexico is a Third World country.

      The United States does have a powerful economy and IS quite a target for large companies to make profits. Nevertheless, companies do not rely on an American market as much as you think. Many companies do very well selling their products in every place BUT the United States.

      If Volkswagen didn't think it was a good idea to sell the R32 in Europe and Latin America first, they wouldn't have made that decision. There are many more requirements and regulations that manufacturers must fulfill and abide by before introducing products in the United States than other places around the world.

      Automobiles are a prime example. In markets where high tariffs are in effect to aggressively protect home industries, or where there aren't laws limiting the application and usage of foreign products, companies tend to fare better. The United States IS a great place to make money, but the trouble companies go through to introduce their products here can be quite costly and overwhelming.

      Other times, the products don't fit the market as well as the manufacturer would like them to. That's another reason why we don't see great cars make their way over from Europe, and if we do, they are in limited numbers. If Volkswagen believed that the R32 was going to be a best-seller I'm sure they would ship more and perhaps introduce the cars in a more timely manner. Other companies like Seat and Alfa are also doing comfortably in Europe, where there is a market for their cars.

      In terms of limitation and laws restricting usage, that's a prime reason why we don't receive the great portable electronics that we see in Europe and Asia. The FCC greatly restricts the bandwith allocated to mobile phones and will continue to do so until industries in the United States will be unaffected by the introduction of such products. I'm sure everyone would love to have DoCoMo phones over here someday, but for now it's just a dream


    28. Member Surf Green's Avatar
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      12-11-2003 07:23 PM #518
      You live in Alabama.

      Being that I live in the Metro DC area, I am, no doubt, richer than you. Smarter too.

      Wow. This is cool. In your logic, I didn't call you dumb, or poor. I simply pointed out demographic differences between our two areas.


    29. 12-11-2003 07:43 PM #519
      Actually Mexico is not a third world country. And to think that there is no money or disposable income in Mexico is laughable. Get your mind away from people jumping the border to come here there is much more to Mexico than that.

    30. 12-11-2003 09:39 PM #520
      Quote, originally posted by ImRollin »
      Actually Mexico is not a third world country. And to think that there is no money or disposable income in Mexico is laughable. Get your mind away from people jumping the border to come here there is much more to Mexico than that.

      I'm not sure who that post was directed at...but...if it WAS directed at me then you are completely lost

      I was born there and grew up there for half of my life, moved to the states and returned for 2 years to Mexico before moving back to the states again

      Mexico IS a third world country and has many social, economic, and political issues that the government has to begin being more responsible about. I certainly didn't live in a perfect place when I was down there and if I were to take pictures of my neighborhoods there I'm sure many people would be appalled and would dread ever living in places similar.

      And about people jumping the border - I have no idea where that came from. I AM Mexican, so it would be laughable for me to think that. I think I've had enough of this discussion...I'm even getting lost trying to respond to that post


    31. Member THE KILLER RABBIT's Avatar
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      12-11-2003 09:41 PM #521
      Quote, originally posted by DriveVW4Life »
      Check Out This Top Gear Video on the R32 .. They Compare it Against a Seat Leon Cupra R, Civic Type R, and Focus RS.

      http://66.111.50.50/~admin2/rf...f.mpg

      Download Beware: 72MB

      Well Worth it Though!

      denied


    32. 12-12-2003 08:45 AM #522
      Quote, originally posted by Gumby17 »

      I'm not sure who that post was directed at...but...if it WAS directed at me then you are completely lost

      I was born there and grew up there for half of my life, moved to the states and returned for 2 years to Mexico before moving back to the states again

      Mexico IS a third world country and has many social, economic, and political issues that the government has to begin being more responsible about. I certainly didn't live in a perfect place when I was down there and if I were to take pictures of my neighborhoods there I'm sure many people would be appalled and would dread ever living in places similar.

      And about people jumping the border - I have no idea where that came from. I AM Mexican, so it would be laughable for me to think that. I think I've had enough of this discussion...I'm even getting lost trying to respond to that post

      Some economists do not consider Mexico a third world country becuase it has a develop/devloping industry, infrastructure etc.


    33. 12-12-2003 09:34 AM #523
      Quote, originally posted by Surf Green »
      You live in Alabama.

      Being that I live in the Metro DC area, I am, no doubt, richer than you. Smarter too.

      Wow. This is cool. In your logic, I didn't call you dumb, or poor. I simply pointed out demographic differences between our two areas.

      You dumbass. I work in Alabama. I live in Chicago, LA, and believe it or not the DC area (Centreville, VA.). Now don't you feel like an @$$? So by your stupid misguided logic I'd be considered a god to you. Lets not play demographics with me. I doubt you are richer or smarter. How many houses do you own? I own 4.


    34. Administrator jamie@vwvortex's Avatar
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      12-12-2003 11:22 AM #524
      Quote, originally posted by Whirling_Dervish »

      You dumbass. I work in Alabama. I live in Chicago, LA, and believe it or not the DC area (Centreville, VA.). Now don't you feel like an @$$? So by your stupid misguided logic I'd be considered a god to you. Lets not play demographics with me. I doubt you are richer or smarter. How many houses do you own? I own 4.

      Lighten up Francis or you might find yourself escorted to the door...


    35. Geriatric Member Chapel's Avatar
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      12-12-2003 11:27 AM #525
      Quote, originally posted by vwvortex1 »

      Lighten up Francis or you might find yourself escorted to the door...



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