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    Thread: Detailing Forum "How-To"

    1. 10-04-2003 10:18 AM #36
      Quote, originally posted by Jesstzn »

      Can you tell me where to buy 100% Terry Cloth MF towels?
      Every MF towel I have seen/bought is no terry cloth.
      The secret of the Microfiber towel is a state-of-the-art matrix of polyester and polyamide weave. Usually 75/80% polyester and 20/25% polyamide.

      Microfiber cloths are made from a new blend of 70% Polyester and 30% Polyamide. A single strand of microfiber is approximately 1/20th the diameter of a strand of silk. There are over 90,000 micro fibers per square inch of cloth. And each average microfiber terry cloth measures 15" x 15". That's over 20 million fibers in 1 cloth. These tiny micro fibers disperse dirt, grime, film, dust, and collect it deep in the cloth to be rinsed away when washed. Re-use over and over, microfiber cloths usually last for years of use.

      This is what I thought too, and that's why I avoided MF towels before. Being a MicroFiber towel just means that it was manufactured in such a way that there are 10's of thousands of strands per inch. There is no set number, and I have seen towels anywhere from 40,000 TC to over 100,000 TC (although over 100,000 is usally a polly/blend and not Terry Cloth). I purchased mine at Costco, and it was $9 for 12 16" x 16" towels! They are 100% Terry, and here is a link of another company that does the same thing! http://www.microfiberplus.com/
      I think the 100% Terry MF towels are relatively new, and they were probably brought about by the demand by the automotive detailing industry. The main difference between the polymide towels and the pure Terry towels is that the polymide towels have those polymers, which do make better 'grabbing' action on hard surfaces and thus better for cleaning, but to BE better at cleaning hard surfaces it is actually 'scraping' the surface in a sense and that is the kind of thing you don't want to use on a nice painted surface, especially clear coat on dark paint! Look around and you can find one in the area usually. Hope this helps!


    2. 10-09-2003 11:11 PM #37
      one to one vinegar to water, or bar keepers friend for water spotted glass.

      Best glass cleaner for unspotted glass is Stoner brand invisible glass cleaner

      or... http://www.invisibleglass.com/


      Modified by ChrisG at 8:20 PM 10-9-2003


    3. 10-22-2003 11:55 AM #38
      Quote, originally posted by Jesstzn »
      Gum on the carpet/upholstery

      I tried the freezing method to remove it but instead of ice I took a can of "Canned Air" used for cleaning computers. I turned it upside down and sprayed the gum. It froze instantly then a little rubbing with the finger nails lifted it right out and I had the shop vac there and sucked it up.

      Modified by Jesstzn at 7:52 AM 9-1-2003

      Great suggestion! Thanks for the tip.


    4. Member Triumph's Avatar
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      10-27-2003 02:15 PM #39
      Quote, originally posted by SN2BDNGRZB55 »

      A word on Micro Fiber Towels: be very cautious of which ones you buy before using on paint. Look for MF towels that are DESIGNED to be used on cars. and that say they are 100% Cotton Terry cloth. Contrary to popular believe, some MF towels are actually made up partially of polyesther/polymers (plastics basically) that are not abrasive, but are not soft either. If you could imagine taking a plastic bag and balling it up and rubbing on your car, it's like that. You can glaze the paint and also scratch it, especially clear coat on a black car . I use a leather chamoise and MF TERRY-CLOTH towels- remove a majority of the water with chamoise and then detail with the 100% Terry cloth MF towels.

      I completely disagree with SN2BDNGRZB55's assessment of a MF towel. MF towels are generally accepted to be made of 70% polyester, 30% polyamide (or maybe 80/20), NOT cotton, and they include a very high strand count. They will NOT scratch your paint. They will absorb 7 times more water than any cotton towel, thin weave or not.

      There may be some confusion because some resellers are calling their MF towels "Terry Towels," but they then go on to explain that they are composed of 70/30 polyester/polyamide. Pakshak is one such reseller. You can learn more about MF towels at the following links:
      http://www.microfibertech.com/
      http://www.properautocare.com/micwhatbigde.html
      http://www.pakshak.com

      I've never read here, or on Autopia, anything about MF towels being made out of cotton. If you have any doubt about the quality of a towel, do the CD test. Take a blank CD-R, which is much softer than any auto paint, rub the towel over it, and look for scratches. A MF won't scratch the CD.


      Modified by Triumph at 2:23 PM 10-27-2003

      -Triumph, the Insult Comic Dog

      I saw this in a movie about a bus that had to speed around the city, keeping its speed over fifty, and if its speed dropped, the bus would explode! I think it was called, "The Bus That Couldn't Slow Down."

    5. 10-27-2003 06:00 PM #40
      Quote, originally posted by Triumph »

      I completely disagree with SN2BDNGRZB55's assessment of a MF towel. MF towels are generally accepted to be made of 70% polyester, 30% polyamide (or maybe 80/20), NOT cotton, and they include a very high strand count. They will NOT scratch your paint. They will absorb 7 times more water than any cotton towel, thin weave or not.

      Modified by Triumph at 2:23 PM 10-27-2003

      You can disagree all you want, and you are entitled to your opinion. The reality is, though, that there ARE 100% Terry Cloth MF towels out there; The definition of MF does NOT mean that there has to be polyester or polymides just that there are a certain amount of thread counts per square inch (10's of thousands); and, that some towels with polymides DO scratch paint. I stated my EXPERIENCE (that a MF towel with polymers did glaze/scratch my paint) and was just advising people of a better product available to protect them of it. I did also say (if you read it) that you should use MF towels specifically designed for car detailing, so if there is a good one that included polymers, than so be it - I wouldn't buy it but to each his own.

      I never stated that all polymide towels will scratch paint, but how do you choose between the ones that do? Wouldn't it make sense to eliminate the possibility and just buy a Terry Cloth MF towel in the first place? Your entitled to your opinion, but that doesn't mean it's right. I'm sorry that your reality is clouded by the past - just because in the past most MF towels were made with polymers doesn't mean that all towels in the future have too.... don't you think that a company that really cares about the towel you use on your car would eventually develop a way to make a Terry Cloth MF towel?? Well, guess what they have. And, if you want to continue using polymer towels because they are "generally accepted", then by all means go ahead...I'm just giving people info based on my experience in hopes they can use it, not trying to say I'm right. Are you?

      J

      EDIT: I did a pretty detailed reply to someones question on Terry MF towels above, you should maybe check out the link I posted for http://www.microfiberplus.com.....


      Modified by SN2BDNGRZB55 at 3:23 PM 10-27-2003


    6. Member Triumph's Avatar
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      10-27-2003 07:39 PM #41
      Obviously this website is promoting their own product, that's why they can make such outlandish statements as "You should, as a rule, avoid any cloth material that is not 100% natural. Stay away from polyester, rayon, nylon, and the like." This goes against my experience, and the experience of hundred of professional and semi-professional detailers at the Autopia forums. Surely, there are bad MF towels out there, which is true for any product. And obviously these bad products are not the ones being used by professional detailers. But I repeat, the good MF towels do not need to be made from natural materials, and will not scratch your paint. I wouldn't even consider that an opinion, as it's been tested countless times.

      Quote »
      Contrary to popular believe, some MF towels are actually made up partially of polyesther/polymers (plastics basically) that are not abrasive, but are not soft either. If you could imagine taking a plastic bag and balling it up and rubbing on your car, it's like that.

      That isn't contrary to popular belief. All of the popular MF towels are made from a polyester mixture. The very website you linked to even says that polyester MF fibers can be soft yet abrasive. (which I don't necessarily agree with) The plastic bag analogy isn't even close to being true.

      Quote »
      A word on Micro Fiber Towels: be very cautious of which ones you buy before using on paint. Look for MF towels that are DESIGNED to be used on cars. and that say they are 100% Cotton Terry cloth.

      If you would just remove the bolded part, then I would be happy. Let's not turn the thread into an argument, because this isn't the place for it. The basic problem is that you would like to steer people away from ALL MF towels, and only use 100% cotton. You are misrepresenting MF towels, and a F.A.Q. is the worst place for misinformation. I say there is absolutely no need "just be on the safe side" and steer clear of all MF towels.

      -Triumph, the Insult Comic Dog

      I saw this in a movie about a bus that had to speed around the city, keeping its speed over fifty, and if its speed dropped, the bus would explode! I think it was called, "The Bus That Couldn't Slow Down."

    7. 10-28-2003 12:04 AM #42
      Quote, originally posted by Triumph »
      Obviously this website is promoting their own product, that's why they can make such outlandish statements as "You should, as a rule, avoid any cloth material that is not 100% natural. Stay away from polyester, rayon, nylon, and the like." This goes against my experience, and the experience of hundred of professional and semi-professional detailers at the Autopia forums. Surely, there are bad MF towels out there, which is true for any product. And obviously these bad products are not the ones being used by professional detailers. But I repeat, the good MF towels do not need to be made from natural materials, and will not scratch your paint. I wouldn't even consider that an opinion, as it's been tested countless times.

      I didn't buy from that website. I actually purchased my towels before looking up a website - I just posted that in reference to answering a question and recommended people look online and look around. I said I bought mine at Costco.

      Quote, originally posted by Triumph »
      That isn't contrary to popular belief. All of the popular MF towels are made from a polyester mixture. The very website you linked to even says that polyester MF fibers can be soft yet abrasive. (which I don't necessarily agree with) The plastic bag analogy isn't even close to being true.

      You're right, that sentence seemed a little off.. It didn't turn out the way I meant it to. What I meant was that most people think that all MF towels are very soft, when indeed there are some that have more polymers and are better for cleaning and not good for paint. Thanks for pointing that out (as you can see from my FAQ, I was typing a lot! )

      Quote, originally posted by Triumph »
      If you would just remove the bolded part, then I would be happy. Let's not turn the thread into an argument, because this isn't the place for it. The basic problem is that you would like to steer people away from ALL MF towels, and only use 100% cotton. You are misrepresenting MF towels, and a F.A.Q. is the worst place for misinformation. I say there is absolutely no need "just be on the safe side" and steer clear of all MF towels.

      Sorry, I didn't mean to mis-represent ALL MF towels, and I defenitely wasn't steering people away from MF. That is not quite accurate, considering I explained my preferences... but I did update the info to be less biased, although I still prefer 100% pure Terry MF towels.

      J


    8. Member Triumph's Avatar
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      10-29-2003 08:28 PM #43
      Here's a very helpful beginner's guide to using the Porter Cable random orbital buffer. Explains all about the different pads, and has good advice for what product/pad combinaions work well for differing needs.

      Link

      -Triumph, the Insult Comic Dog

      I saw this in a movie about a bus that had to speed around the city, keeping its speed over fifty, and if its speed dropped, the bus would explode! I think it was called, "The Bus That Couldn't Slow Down."

    9. 11-09-2003 11:43 AM #44
      Excuse me, but who told you there are "oils" in today's modern high solid clear coats?

      These new generation (starting in the late 80's) are low solvent/high solid urethanes, and there are no "oils" left in the clear following the OEM paint assembly plants bake process. It removes the main solvent carrier, which is an emulsion of water and a hydrocarbon in the process.

      The closest thing that you can lay your hands on to a modern clear is plastic, it is a chemical cousin of today's clears, just less porus.

      Many of the products you apply to the clear when waxing or polishing due contain petroluem distillates and some polydimethalsiloxanes or polyaminosiloxanes, but these are not true "oils".

      Just attempting to clear up some "old wives tales" that are continually perpertrated by old school product sales/marketing types.

      Ketch


    10. 11-09-2003 04:39 PM #45
      I am on your bus! Poly synthetic and urethane blends are what most car makers use as flux in there paint which is usually not there paint but PPGs or any of the other makers they sub out for their production needs.


    11. 11-09-2003 08:08 PM #46
      How about "ALL" vehicle manufacturers, all 15 majors use.

      They don't use old akiloid enamels or lacquers, they use high solid materials.

      Even the "refinish" materials used by any accredited body shop is high solid/low solvent material, it's the "law" of the land.


      A big difference in the chemistry of OEM assembly plant materials vs "body shop", but in reality, it is only in the curing of the materials that is different due to the chemistry, both are high solid/low solvent materials.

      Ketch
      Ketch


    12. 11-09-2003 10:00 PM #47
      Quote, originally posted by ketch »
      Excuse me, but who told you there are "oils" in today's modern high solid clear coats?

      These new generation (starting in the late 80's) are low solvent/high solid urethanes, and there are no "oils" left in the clear following the OEM paint assembly plants bake process. It removes the main solvent carrier, which is an emulsion of water and a hydrocarbon in the process.

      The closest thing that you can lay your hands on to a modern clear is plastic, it is a chemical cousin of today's clears, just less porus.

      Many of the products you apply to the clear when waxing or polishing due contain petroluem distillates and some polydimethalsiloxanes or polyaminosiloxanes, but these are not true "oils".

      Just attempting to clear up some "old wives tales" that are continually perpertrated by old school product sales/marketing types.

      Ketch

      That's OK Ketch, we know you try. Just to clarify, there aren't any OILS in Urethane or other 'plastics' paint - I used that as an acronym so people could have a visual understanding of what it was doing for their paint. However, the paints themselves ARE pourous (if not on an almost microscopic level) and can be broken down and made more brittle by effects on the evironment - air, acidic chemicals in rainfall water, UV damage, and other pollutants due break down those 'plastics' that are used (IE have you ever found an old plastic toy under you porch or around that's been sitting out? THe plastic is brittle and it's dis-colored). Todays glazes, while not containing the same 'oils' that were used in the old Hot Rod Style enamel paints, due contain restorative nutrients and revitalizers that elongate the life of any type of paint, and help protect against further damage. They go beyond just a polish and/or removing of oxidation. If that were not the case, then why would over 85% of winning show car people use them along WITH polishers, cleaners and wax. I know you are in the "car repair equipment" business Ketch, and hear a lot of things, but could you please do a little more research before you post mis-information? IM me if you have questions, thanks.

      J


      Modified by SN2BDNGRZB55 at 7:02 PM 11-9-2003


      Modified by SN2BDNGRZB55 at 7:21 PM 11-9-2003


    13. 11-09-2003 10:26 PM #48
      Well, I have to tell you that you try, but the "facts" just don't go with what you are saying.

      Yes, enviormental contaminates do attack and will break the "resin" system of todays clears.

      If you wish to see a highly magnified cross section of today's paint system, I put it up on our corp web site, look under Tech Tips at http://www.autoint.com , it is there, and was provided, as is the "how today's paint systems are applied" by one of the 4 major OEM paint supplier we work with on a daily basis.

      If one wishes to "feed" a modern high solid clear, you would have to add the certain plastizers back into it that the use of high alkaline cleaners, certain enviormental contaminates, remove.

      A plastizer is acid based, and just like with rubber, vinyl, and paint, provide the gloss and elastic values needed.

      The "resin" system is the key to holding it all together, attack that and it all comes apart.

      "Oils" do not have these needed values.

      Are you aware that an unprotected high solid clear on average, will absorb over one pint of water into the paint surface of the average vehicle, that the only thing that stops it from reaching the metal or other substrate used is the "e-coat"?

      I just returned from a two week trip to the west coast, the first week I spent a day each with 4 of the largest importers paint and trim engineers, the last week at SEMA in our exhibit. Our exhibit was not for enthusists, but was visited by global parts distributors, vehicle manufacturers from around the world.

      While there, I was approached by two large world manufacturers of vehicles, regarding providing consultation to them, which leaves only 4 of the 15 in the world that we don't work with on a regular basis.

      I am not sharing this with you to "brag", but to let you know where I am coming from.

      How about you? Do you work with Toyota, VW, BMW, Ford, GM(all divisions), DCX(all but MB), Renault, Nissan, Hyundia?

      Their engineering groups?

      Not trying to be throwing down, but I do know about today's paints and the issues that affect them, and I work with the paint suppliers to these manufacturers as well.

      It is how I have made my living, aiding in building our company, for over 20 years.

      Ketch


    14. 11-09-2003 11:36 PM #49
      Quote, originally posted by ketch »
      Well, I have to tell you that you try, but the "facts" just don't go with what you are saying.

      Yes, enviormental contaminates do attack and will break the "resin" system of todays clears.
      Ketch

      Bla bla bla. I guess you didn't read my reply before you posted. Like I said, I used the word "oil" to give people a visual of what happens to the paint, and why you use a glaze - that meaning got lost in your attempt to show people how affluent you were in the technical jargon of today's point. Is it really 'oil' or is it some kind of chemical that restores the "plastizers" and "resins" in the paint? Who cares. The REAL point is that when you prep and polish your paint, you DO need to use a glaze to restore some of the elasticity and gloss that is lost by the damage that is in everyday contaminents/pollutants. Also, dish washing soap does go through the clear coat and damage the base/pigment coat on a three-stage finish, so again whether it's oil or it's not, the point is don't use dishwashing detergent, unless you dis-agree with that..

      It's always fun when people over analyze info, but then totally lose the point. All of that mumbo-jumbo but never once did you say that what I advised was bad... Sometimes it's better to not say anything at all....

      Oh, FYI. Here's a FAQ from Meguiars.com... uh, the company the over 90% of show car winners use...

      From Meguiars.com:
      "Can a clear coat oxidize?
      Most modern car finishes consist of a base coat that contains the colored pigment, topped with a protective clear coat that is designed to keep the pigmented paint from oxidizing. UV protection is added into the clear coat that helps prevent the sun's rays from fading the color coat.

      Oxidation was an obvious problem ten years ago because you quickly saw the color on a single-stage finish fade. With today's modern clear coat finishes, oxidation is less obvious, yet it still occurs.

      Here is how it happens, the sun dries out the top layer of clear paint, just like it does to a single-stage finish and when this happens, the paints natural oils are lost.

      Exposure to inclement weather and frequent washing, (especially with a harsh detergent like dish washing soap), further dries your paint out by leaching the natural oils out of your paint.

      As the natural oils are removed, water and other destructive elements begin to attack your finish. If these oils aren't replaced, your clear coat paint will oxidize and the surface will gradually become duller. Although modern paint technology is much more resistant to oxidation, nevertheless, it will oxidize when neglected and/or improperly maintained.


      For more information call our Customer Care Center at 1-800-545-3321, and talk with a surface care specialist. Or, use the convenience of e-mail.


      --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

      Can a clear coat fade?
      No and yes.

      The word Fade means to, lose color or brightness gradually.

      Technically speaking, since the clear has no color… it cannot fade or lose it's brightness. At least if we use the above definition. It can become dull, but that's not the same as fading.

      Can the color coat below the clear coat fade? In short… Yes. But, it depends on the environment. A car parked inside most of it's life, far away from the equator will not show much sign of fading. Conversely, a car continually parked outside in a desert region close to the equator will fade more quickly and the results will be more apparent over time.

      These are the technically correct answers. The non-technical answer to the question, "Can a clear coat fade?" is yes, but very slowly. So slowly that most people cannot perceive any change through the course of day to day living.


      For more information call our Customer Care Center at 1-800-545-3321, and talk with a surface care specialist. Or, use the convenience of e-mail.


      --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

      Can a clear coat get dull?
      Most modern car finishes consist of a base coating that contains the color, topped with a protective clear coat that is designed to keep the pigmented paint from oxidizing. This outer clear coat adds UV protection that helps prevent the sun's rays from drying out the base paint. Oxidation was an obvious problem ten years ago because you quickly saw the color fade. Now that the outer layer is usually clear, oxidation is less obvious, yet it still occurs. The sun dries out top paint layers and natural oils are lost. If these oils aren't replaced, the paint oxidizes and the surface gradually becomes duller and duller.

      Even more than yesterday's paints, today's clear coat finishes look faded whenever the surface becomes contaminated by airborne pollution, acid rain, industrial fallout, and countless other factors. If the contamination isn't removed frequently, it reduces the reflective quality of the finish until it looks dull and lifeless. If the contamination is left on the car for some time, it can begin to etch into the thin clear coat paint layer and expose the base coat to direct UV rays and even greater damage.

      Once the clear coat protection is gone the car usually requires costly repainting.

      For more information call our Customer Care Center at 1-800-545-3321, and talk with a surface care specialist. Or, use the convenience of e-mail.


      --------------------------------------------------------------------------------"


      and so on. I guess if I can't help you, maybe you should email Barry Meguiar?

      J




      Modified by SN2BDNGRZB55 at 8:37 PM 11-9-2003


    15. 12-05-2003 04:30 PM #50
      k i read through some of the stuff people have submitted. some very good stuff. i detail showroom cars, ie. make them ready to go into the showrooms. can take up to 6-8 hours depending on the car and color. black ones are the hardest and take around 7 usually.

      for everything i do i have a detail bay. sounds fancy not too hard to do youself. get some fluorescnet lights, a space heater or 2, dust free area, where you can hose off things. not too hard.
      most people have the washing techniques down good.

      for drying:
      wash the car outside roll it in.i have already cranked the heaters on full blast so the room is freakin hot. i am sweating just standing there. i go over the windows with a squegee and the entire car with another one cleaning after each sweep. just gets the majoirty of the water off there :edit: any fine scratches you do put into the car you end up taking out when you do the color cut anywayz:edit:. i go grab a coffee let the heater do the rest
      next i claybar the car

      claybar:
      make sure you use a good bar. we use a bar from our supplier so i dont know what kind it is exactly buts its around $80 for the bars and we have different strengths for different colours and cars.
      try to use lots of lubricant, soap and water is really good, just somthing so the bar doesn't stick. make small circles and go panel by panel. try to wash the car after each panel so lots of grit doesn't get in there
      do the whole car, sedans usually take around an hour and a bit to do.
      wash the car to get the soap and clay off, make sure you get it all off.
      bring car back in and dry it off by hand. let the heater do the work again.
      i usually let the car sit for about 15 minutes once dry in the hot bay so that the paint begins to become warm. makes for easy waxing.

      waxing:
      usually do 4 waxes in total, color cut, lustre, shine, and then a shine enhancer
      when i use the color cut i usually do 2 coats and buff off with a wool pad on the buffer at around 1800rpm. if there are still some scratches i will do as many as neccessary.

      lustre i will do about 2 or 3 coats again depending on the coat quality. light colors get done with a buffer dark ones especially black get done by hand.
      shine: do a coat by hand and take off by hand
      shine enhancer: again 2 coats take off by hand.
      stand back and admire, fix any imperfections that are then seen.
      key is to be in a warm bay. wax dries quicker, goes on better comes off better. it is usually better to let the wax sit for a few minutes until it is fully dry. it comes off easier but works better and doesn't haze the paint.

      then i just roll it into the showroom and use a showroom cloth to remove any fingerprints and dust.....and wait for the little f u c k e r s to put their hands all over it.


      hope that helped some people.


      Modified by nOOb at 1:35 PM 12-5-2003

      My Legen...wait for it....dairy VRT build thread http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?3571869

    16. 12-05-2003 04:32 PM #51
      to remove hard water spots on windows windex and a piece of light strength steel wool does the job and wont scratch. you can do it without the windex if you want and it wont do anything but we tend to use a little windex to help it slide better.

      My Legen...wait for it....dairy VRT build thread http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?3571869

    17. 12-21-2003 11:11 AM #52
      I would also like to add the "double wash" method.

      My friend was a detailing freak (washed his car almost every day, waxed twice a week). and what he would do wash a section (like the roof), rinse, then wash again, and rinse again.

      I started using this method and was amazed at how much cleaner my car came out. It really didn't add a whole lot of time to the process of washing the car, but made a HUGE difference on how clean the car ended up.

      Try it out, you will be surprised


    18. 12-22-2003 12:24 AM #53
      Something came to mind now that is winter....

      I usually put more wax on my car in October/November. I don't usually wax and fully detail my car until March, so for a longer period I use 2 to 3 coats of a thicker paste wax (I usually use a liquid wax during spring/summer). With the additonal precipitation - especially in the PNW where I live - you need additional protection for the extra junk and oil coming up off the road and through the rain/snow. I also wash my car more often - I go through a 'touchless' car wash if it's been a heavy week, even if it's raining that day. I don't like carwashes, but the touchless ones are better than the 'soft rag' or bristle washes. I also ONLY do that if it is a particularily heavy precipitation week (sometimes it rains 10-14 days straight around here). Don't buy any of that extra protection junk, just the basic $3-6 wash. It's good to keep the extra dirt off the car if weather doesn't permit spending 30mins outside washing your car, or it it's just really really dirty.


    19. 12-24-2003 11:25 AM #54
      I don't know why I didn't post this before, but here is a REALLY REALLY useful link to Meguiars CarCareRX tool - it asks you a series of questions and makes recommendations for taking care of your paint:

      http://www.meguiars.com/carrx.cfm

      Of course, it recommends Meguiars products, but if you have a different brand preference you can see the type of products used and how they are applied, and cross reference that to your favorite line of products. Happy Detailing!!


    20. 01-10-2004 06:23 PM #55
      Simple, I have a 2001 black Jetta and all I use is the 3M perfect_it line of products

    21. 01-12-2004 04:09 PM #56
      Quote, originally posted by zapper65 »
      Simple, I have a 2001 black Jetta and all I use is the 3M perfect_it line of products

      I've heard that 3M is good (that's what a lot of body shops use...although most companies put out the same product at different levels...). Is that a professional/commercial grade product that is usually only available to shops, or is it an available consumer level product. There is a difference, and some products should only be used with certain types of equipment like a rotary buffer, while some are good to go for just a standard dual-action or random orbit buffer that is widely used by at-home detailers.. thanks!


    22. 01-23-2004 02:00 AM #57
      Ok folks, I've been reading with interest the many comments about MF in this forum and I figured I'd better register and help clear up some of the gross misconceptions that are forming. The information being presented here is mostly incorrect.

      First of all let me state that I am a textile designer and weaver and have been in the textile business for over 25 yrs. Much of what you read on the internet is hogwash, it is advertising hype and you must learn to read between the lines.

      Microfiber is NOT any particular material, it is not strictly polyester, or nylon, or cotton, or cellulose, or whatever. MF is a term used to describe the thickness of a filamant of yarn. The technical term for this is "denier." A yarn of 1 denier is 9000 yards long and weighs 1 gram, microfiber is any yarn below a denier of .2 Therefore MF can be made from man made fibers such as polyester or rayon or it can be natural such as cotton or other cellulose. Microfiber is not any particular weave, when you say 100% Terry MF it makes no sense.

      MF filaments are spun together, usually with other materials, to form a single strand of yarn which is then combined with other yarn to make a thread which is used in the weaving of the cloth. Forget about 90,000 or 100,000 thread count, there is no such animal. Forget about thread count completely. Thread count has nothing to do with quality or softness. A good analogy would be that burap can have a higher thread count than a cotton shheet, would you use burlap on your car?

      Without going intoi too much further detail suffice it to say that a natural materail is less prone to scratching than a man made. That is not to say that natural won't scratch! What you need to watch out for is the quality of the material and how it is made. It is a difficult thing to determine so the best thing to do is check web sites such as http://www.autopia.org, http://www.showcargarage.com, and http://www.detailcity.com and see what people there like to use. Make an informed decision as to what you think you may want and thenn buy a towel or two from the better manufacturers (stay away from Wal Mart and Costco as they have very inconsistent quality.) Once you get to try the towels you can then decide what is best for you, everyone has their own preferences.

      Leo


    23. 01-23-2004 02:22 AM #58
      Sorry but I need to elaborate on something. I keep seeing you mention that 100% Terry MF is something new. This is totally false! Terry towels made from MF yarns of various types have been around for 20 yrs! You also say that certain thread counts make a towel terry or poly. This makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Terry is a type of weave (the familiar loops you see on towels) it has absolutely nothing to do with content (poly, cotton, whatever) or thread size (MF or not.)

      You need to understand that a terry towel can be all cotton non MF, cotton MF, Poly MF, Poly MF with nylon, cellulose MF with cotton, silk!, rayone, linen, etc. etc. etc.

      Something else you need to look for in a towel and that is the stitching. Many lower quality MF towels sometimes are sewn with polyester thread which in itself can scratch your paint so be carfull. Also be sure to remove any labels that may be attached.

      You also need to be wary of mislabeled products. Many towels labeled All Cotton for example coming from India, Pakistan, and the Orient may not be 100% cotton, don't always believe the labels.

      Leo


    24. 01-24-2004 12:43 AM #59
      Quote, originally posted by DFTowel »
      Sorry but I need to elaborate on something. I keep seeing you mention that 100% Terry MF is something new. This is totally false! Terry towels made from MF yarns of various types have been around for 20 yrs! You also say that certain thread counts make a towel terry or poly. This makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Terry is a type of weave (the familiar loops you see on towels) it has absolutely nothing to do with content (poly, cotton, whatever) or thread size (MF or not.)

      You need to understand that a terry towel can be all cotton non MF, cotton MF, Poly MF, Poly MF with nylon, cellulose MF with cotton, silk!, rayone, linen, etc. etc. etc.

      Something else you need to look for in a towel and that is the stitching. Many lower quality MF towels sometimes are sewn with polyester thread which in itself can scratch your paint so be carfull. Also be sure to remove any labels that may be attached.

      You also need to be wary of mislabeled products. Many towels labeled All Cotton for example coming from India, Pakistan, and the Orient may not be 100% cotton, don't always believe the labels.

      Leo

      Leo,

      Thank you for the detailed information about what to look for in a good detailing towel, and especially for clearing up a lot of mis-conceptions about what kind of fibers make what, and what Terry really means. I think most of us are so familiar with the terms "Terry" and "Cotton" in the same sentence that it is generally assumed that a "terry" cloth has to be cotton - I know I did. Also, I did mention in my experience that the towels I have seen advertised (advertised being the key word, as you mentioned) with higher thread counts usually stated a higher polymer/polyester percentage, but that wasn't meant as a rule, just what I had seen in my shopping around various sites and local car shops. Also, I did assume that Terry MF was new, only because MF was new to me in the consumer market in general and I hadn't seen Terry MF towels in the past. I apologize if I miss-informed anybody.
      However, I do have a question. Obviously you want to get a towel that is soft and won't have any potential for damaging your paint. So, are cotton towels generally less susceptible to scratching? What is the softest fabric? Also, what does thread count tell you about anything, or does it? Will thread count tell you how absorbent a towel is? What is typically the highest thread count you can get? The MF towels I found are Terry, they are Cotton, and they are MF (although it doesn't state thread count, and they are made in the U.S. so hopefully they are pure cotton). I did get them at Costco, however being skeptical of prior MF experiences, I tested them on an inconspicuous spot on my car before using them all the time. The ends of the towels have been sewn almost like a piping that is very very small - the tufts from the towel actually almost entirely encapsulate them. I tried using the towels on a CD like suggested by Triumph, pressing very hard, and the towels made absolutely not even a hint of a mark.. and they have been great on my car. I guess that makes them a good towel. But, I am curious if there are types of materials that you should AVOID when looking at good detailing towels. Can you elaborate a little?

      Thanks so much for your input Leo! It was great for you to jump in an help us enthusiasts make sure our cars had the best of the best!

      Jesse


      Modified by SN2BDNGRZB55 at 9:46 PM 1-23-2004


    25. 01-25-2004 12:04 AM #60
      So, are cotton towels generally less susceptible to scratching?

      Yes but that is not to say cotton can't scratch. Nor is it saying polyester will scratch. Abrasiveness is more related to the treatment and production of the yarn rather than what it is.

      What is the softest fabric?

      That's like saying who is the prettiest girl or what is the best color car! A fabric that feels soft can be more abrasive than one that feels stiffer. Generally, however, softer fabrics are made of natural materials rather than man mades such as polyester. Sometimes softness is due to finishes such as silicone added to the fabric thus folling you into thinking they are soft, much like fabric softners.

      Also, what does thread count tell you about anything, or does it?

      It means nothing to the end user, thread count is simply the number of threads in a square inch (or centimeter.) Many distributors quote outlandish thread counts like 90,000 or more. 90,000 what? Are they quoting threads or the filaments that make up the threads. Are they quoting both sides or one side of the fabric? Thread count is typically the threads which usually can be counted at about 500 or so, anything much denser you will have a satin fabric which certainly will be too smooth and non absorbent. Forget thread count

      Will thread count tell you how absorbent a towel is?

      Not exactly, absorbency is more related to the content (cotton, linen, polyester, whatever) However, for a fabric made up of a particular fiber such as cotton for example, a denser weave (higher thread count) mauy be more absorbant than a less dense one. Again, don't worry about thread count.

      What is typically the highest thread count you can get?

      Depends on the yarn size and the content... FORGET ABOUT THREAD COUNT!!

      The MF towels I found are Terry, they are Cotton, and they are MF (although it doesn't state thread count, and they are made in the U.S. so hopefully they are pure cotton).

      You are again using the term MF as if it is a particular content, saying something is MF or cotton is wrong... MF refers to a very fine yarn which can be cottnn, cellulose, polyester, rayon, or other fibers.

      I did get them at Costco, however being skeptical of prior MF experiences, I tested them on an inconspicuous spot on my car before using them all the time. The ends of the towels have been sewn almost like a piping that is very very small - the tufts from the towel actually almost entirely encapsulate them. I tried using the towels on a CD like suggested by Triumph, pressing very hard, and the towels made absolutely not even a hint of a mark.. and they have been great on my car. I guess that makes them a good towel. But, I am curious if there are types of materials that you should AVOID when looking at good detailing towels. Can you elaborate a little?

      Avoid steel wool! Hard question to answer but my personal opinion is to stay away from man made fibers because they can be inconsistent BUT many people swear by them and never have a problem. To each his own!

      The CD test is not gospel! It is only a guide, if the towel scratches the CD it still may not harm your car as the CD is much softer than your car's finish.


    26. 01-26-2004 11:48 PM #61
      SO, thread count doesn't matter....? J/K I think we get the picture.

      I am trying to grasp the whole MF thing. Okay, so a towel really CAN'T be MF then, right? Tell me if this is right: MF is a type of yarn? So a towel can be made of cotton MF spun yarn, and can be made with Terry loops, but that just basically makes a really dense cotton terry towel, right? Because the yarn is more dense when it is MF spun? SO, these companies are doing some type of irrelevant calculations on how many threads their towels have in each yarn to dupe people into thinking that it has 1000s of times more threads than normal towels basically.

      I think I'll stick to your website!!


    27. 01-30-2004 03:14 PM #62
      In a nutshell: microfiber refers to very fine yarn below a certain diameter. That is simply all there is to it. It can be any of a number of fibers (cotton, polyester, rayone, nylon, wood!\ fiber, almost anything)

      Try to think of it like pasta... spaghetti is thick, angel hair is very thin... but they are both made of the same thing. Same withh microfiber, you can have standard cotton yarn or you can have microfiber cotton yarn.

      Clear now?


    28. 02-17-2004 03:17 PM #63
      To DFTowel and others:
      Whoever answers this gets a prize,

      When using a microfiber towel on your paint for polishing and waxing use ________________(varitey/brand/etc) and it can be found at________________.


      I currently have three black VWs and I only want to do the best for my cars.


    29. 02-17-2004 04:39 PM #64
      When using a microfiber towel on your paint for polishing and waxing use ________________(varitey/brand/etc) and it can be found at________________.

      Well obviously my answer would be http://www.dftowel.com but there are plenty of choices out there for all different budgets.


    30. 02-25-2004 06:58 PM #65
      I didn't see too many topics about engine bay cleaning so ill give my 2 cents:

      first off spray down the engine bay, and do it after the cars cooled down (its not really that important but people think your having engine trouble otherwise ) be careful around open wires too.

      get the Gunk brand engine cleaner (its a canadian product so i dont know if you guys get it) and spray it all on the engine bay, this product removes any dirt or any of that matter, spray it off, for hard hit areas use a brush to help get it off.

      Dry off your enigine, then use some WD-40 spray it on the various tubes trimming and valve cover and wipe it down with a dry towel, this will give it a nice shine that lasts

      enjoy!


    31. 02-26-2004 04:06 AM #66
      Quote, originally posted by AudiNick »
      I didn't see too many topics about engine bay cleaning so ill give my 2 cents:

      first off spray down the engine bay, and do it after the cars cooled down (its not really that important but people think your having engine trouble otherwise ) be careful around open wires too.

      get the Gunk brand engine cleaner (its a canadian product so i dont know if you guys get it) and spray it all on the engine bay, this product removes any dirt or any of that matter, spray it off, for hard hit areas use a brush to help get it off.

      Dry off your enigine, then use some WD-40 spray it on the various tubes trimming and valve cover and wipe it down with a dry towel, this will give it a nice shine that lasts

      enjoy!

      I like the WD-40 tip - used it on other parts too. Thanks for bringing up engine bay - it's important and a lot of people forget it. Another good tip if you don't want to use a lot of high chemical degreasers is ... Simple Green! Most of the time it is watered down for general cleaning, but as it comes in its concentrate form it will make an engine beautiful, and no nasty smell. In fact, it smells pretty damn good! Always let your engine cool before applying water to the engine compartment - it just avoids putting stress on the metal from rapid temperature change. Mist the engine with water. Spray it down with concentrated Simple Green. Let it soak for a good 15-20 minutes but don't let it dry. Then just spray it off. It took off caked on motor oil that I had splashed on the head after topping off. It's "Green" too, enviro friendly. My .02


    32. Member Triumph's Avatar
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      02-26-2004 10:21 PM #67
      Two things I realized recently that are often forgotten, but really make your car feel like new:

      - Clean your door jams! These never come clean when washing the outside of the car. After I wash, I open up all the doors and clean everywhere with a soapy rag. I'm not so concerned about scratches here.
      - Don't forget to treat your rubber door seams with your favorite vinyl/rubber treatment. They look so much better when you give them a new black shine.

      It's the little things that matter, not those large boring surfaces of color.

      -Triumph, the Insult Comic Dog

      I saw this in a movie about a bus that had to speed around the city, keeping its speed over fifty, and if its speed dropped, the bus would explode! I think it was called, "The Bus That Couldn't Slow Down."

    33. Member 550spyder2276's Avatar
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      02-29-2004 01:43 PM #68
      Using any decent glass cleaner with a dedicated Micro fiber towel will guarantee streak free results.

    34. Member 550spyder2276's Avatar
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      02-29-2004 01:44 PM #69



      Modified by 550spyder2276 at 6:55 PM 2-29-2004

    35. 02-29-2004 01:54 PM #70
      550spyder2276, you said the following in the now edited post above:
      "There is no such thing as a 100% cotton micro Fiber. ALL microfibers are basically made of super fine strands of Nylon and Polyester."

      That statement is 100% wrong and quite irresponsible. I love it when people who know nothing about a product or industry make such outrageous statements. Microfiber cotton filament certainly does exist, in fact, I am looking at a skean of it here in my office. Microfber only refers to the diameter of a filament of yarn, not to it's content.


      Modified by DFTowel at 11:43 PM 2-29-2004


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