1.8T swap into mk3 GTI

[punkassjim]

tingle, tingle....

Modified by punkassjim at 12:04 PM 10-29-2004

[George]

you need thinner tires brotha

[punkassjim]

i know, i know....but I'm still all a-twitter. I didn't even bolt it on yet, just wanted to see something positive

[punkassjim]

once I get the wiring pulled through the firewall, I think this is my next step in the process:
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=412762

...provided I can get the damn bimmer running again. I can't get it to start, but I think it's just badly flooded. Need to take the spark plugs out later and see what's up. Sucks.

[JETwagen]

Is there anything wrong with the engine that was in the car? If nothing wrong, do you still have and willing to sell?

[punkassjim]

emailing you.

[punkassjim]

looks like all work is put on hold until I can figure out why the 2002 has no spark. Man, I feel so stranded.

[h2lme2000]

[punkassjim]

excellent work, my friend. would love to take a closer look at that some day

[h2lme2000]

Quote, originally posted by punkassjim »

excellent work, my friend. would love to take a closer look at that some day

well if you have a question fell free to ask

[punkassjim]

Just for those of you out there who recoil from the idea of buying a whole donor car, here's a little tidbit of information for ya:

+$2800: price of my donor
+$250: price of an airbag to fill the 3-spoke
+$40: price of a new mk4 euro switch
-$900: sold the interior out of it
-$65: sold the headlights off of it
-$150: price I'll take for the WE sport suspension
-$500: sold the motor out of my GTI
-$200: sold the cabby dash from my GTI
-$66: sold the old euro switch
-$115: sold the mk3 keyless entry box
-$45: sold the DE e-brake boot I had lying around
-$60: sold the cabby e-brake handle I had in the GTI

=$989 total

let's say we round it up to $1300 for the tools I've spent, and for the driveshaft and Plus Suspension I have to get. STILL.

btw, I have a junk car that I had before all this, used to fix my rad/rad support, airbags and alternator when my car was totaled. It's got a 2.0 motor and all. I paid $250 for it, to get it out of the towing company's lot. Just a thought. I can't say to never pass up a deal, but those deals you find may just be good for you in more ways than one. This $250 car, I got about $1000 value out of it for parts and airbags, and now I can say "Hey Pierce, why don't I give you this car in return for a Plus Suspension and some small parts?" It's been a rocky road, but I'd say the decisions I made are starting to show me why I made them.

Under $1300 for a 1.8T swap...

...and I will never pay a mechanic again, unless I'm feeling lazy or ill.


Modified by punkassjim at 4:22 PM 8-19-2003

[97gtiguy]

its looking good so far.....i have been playing around with the idea of a 1.8t swap onto my mk3.....a few quick question 4 ya

- are you swaping the mk4 interior into the mk3 and is that posable????
- how about the drive train.does all of that move over including drive shafts etc..
- all the motor mouts the same or do you have to sart fabricating your own.

thanks a lot good luck it looks awesome so far

[punkassjim]

Quote, originally posted by 97gtiguy »

- are you swaping the mk4 interior into the mk3 and is that posable????

Sort of. I'm definitely doing the dash and center console. For the seats, I'm putting mk4 front seats in, but for the rear seat, I'm just gonna re-wrap my rear seat with upholstery to match the fronts. Who needs that center headrest? Honestly. The center shoulder belt might be nice, but how often do I have rear passengers? Not a family car.

For putting the mk4 front seats into the car, I have two options, and maybe a third option, depending on what I see when I get my seats. First option: cut the seat mounting points out of the mk4 and weld them into the GTI...I want to avoid this option if I can. Second option: cut the mounting brackets out of the mk4 seats and weld in mk3 recaro seat brackets/sliders...I'm sorta more willing to do that. The third option is, since the seats I'm getting are recent OEM Recaros, there's a long shot that the brackets/sliders on those seats are bolted on and can be taken off and replaced. I'm not betting on it, but I've ordered a set of brackets/sliders.

Quote, originally posted by 97gtiguy »

- how about the drive train.does all of that move over including drive shafts etc.

I'm using the driveshafts from the mk4 in conjunction with the mk3 VR6 plus suspension. I have no confirmation from anyone that this works, but what I DO know is that the mk4 driveshafts are a few mm longer than the mk3 2.0 shafts, and so are the mk3 vr6 shafts and the plus suspension. I'm hoping the few MM difference is the same, and they mate up fine. I hate that guess-work, though, and I really need to get that settled soon. Anyone who knows more about this, please chime in.

Quote, originally posted by 97gtiguy »

- all the motor mouts the same or do you have to sart fabricating your own.

The front and rear motor mounts get reused from the mk3 motor, but it's best to get the front mount from a vr6, cause it's slightly beefier. The tranny mount bracket and crossmember are sourced from a mk3 vr6. I was told to get the tranny mount itself from a Corrado, but when I took out the old one and compared it with the new one, they are the same thing. No need, that I can see, in a swap into mk3. mk2 swap, maybe.

There is a bit of clearance issue with the turbo pipe and the rear motor mount, and I'm trying to find out now what other people have done to resolve this, aside from bend in a portion of the pipe. I don't want to restrict ANY airflow in there, that'd be dumb.

[evolveVW]

That damn pipe is the biggest pain....Luke got it to work with stock piping but my stock piping would not work at all....so I made all the intercooler piping. If you have an early work day during the week or a day off I would consider bringing the car down ( I dont know if it will make it to the garage though eheh)

[BUNNYLOVE]

I think your chances of being able to just unbolt the MK4 brackets/sliders from the Recaros are pretty good. Any OEM Recaros I've seen from VWs to shelbys have been universal fit seats with special bolt on brackets.

[punkassjim]

Quote, originally posted by BUNNYLOVE »

I think your chances of being able to just unbolt the MK4 brackets/sliders from the Recaros are pretty good. Any OEM Recaros I've seen from VWs to shelbys have been universal fit seats with special bolt on brackets.

Really? Wow, that sounds encouraging, can't wait to get them and SEE. I had heard that the mk2 Recaros were half-and-half...the ones with manual adjust were inseparable from the brackets, but the power-adjust OEM Recaros were separable. My source may have been on crack, though.

Vinnie, I'll let you know on that...I'm gonna get in touch with Louis (the guy doing the swap into his A2 GTI), and see what he did about it. He might have just done what Luke did, but we'll see. I don't want to customize too much, nor restrict airflow, but in this case I might have to.

[revo 3vom]

nice

[punkassjim]

BUNNYLOVE, actually, you might be able to eyeball this for me, since you've seen Recaros come across your path:

This dude has pictures of the undersides of the new Recaros, but I don't really know enough about what I'm looking at to see if the brackets look separable:

here is the gallery, and here are some clickable thumbnails:

Modified by punkassjim at 12:21 AM 8-22-2003

[punkassjim]

oh yeah, and I heard back today that the Recaros are done getting re-upholstered, so I paid the remaining balance, and should see them in a couple of weeks

Here's a pic of what the new seats look like compared to the already-impressive mk4 Jetta Wolfsburg seats. Those WE seats look uncomfortable beside these:

[evolveVW]

You should be able to unbolt those sliders and either make your own or order the Mk3 Recaro sliders

[punkassjim]

got the Recaro "sliders and brackets" yesterday, opened up the box and I only got the sliders. I KNEW that deal sounded too good to be true! Friggin' A. Anyone know where I can just buy a set of Recaro mk3 brackets, since I've got a nice set of sliders already?

Here's a few cars on the used car lot at Pierce. Had to check 'em out. The Jetta GTX is a rare beastie, but that Cabriolet is AMAZING! There's no registration on it, but judging from the interior and cluster, it's either one of the last ones available in the states, or it's been brought up from Mexico. Very late model.

EDIT: images have been archived to my imagestation album.
:http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4289589937

So tonight I did some organizing, and tried to get the pile of wiring from the Jetta all sorted out, so I can start installing things in the GTI. I got the wiring and carpeting from the GTI out, save for the plugs at the taillights and the headliner wiring. Need to do that tomorrow.

I stretched the main car harness out on the floor, just to make sure I was oriented before I begin pulling the wrong thing through the firewall. Engine compartment is here, dashboard is there, that sort of thing. The wires are twice the length of the car in some places, simply du to the roundabout routing of the harnesses.

Aside from the main harness, there are 6 small harnesses that go with it, most of them in the engine compartment, one in the headliner and so on. Then there are the door harnesses, but I consider those a whole separate entity. I'll get to those later, when I tackle the swapping of door internals. Here are the pics of the 6 harnesses, and the seventh is the main harness. It doesn't look as nasty in the pic, so maybe the pic captured the essence of my comprehension nicely.

<edit>These harnesses are just in order of the way I laid them on the floor. The numbers mean nothing. HARNESS 1: trunk harness; note the brown and black plug at the end: those are the connections to the front-of-car harness; this one includes the trunklight and the wiring for the trunk locking system. HARNESS 2: This one's basically just the alternator harness, but it also carries the power for the AC compressor, and there's one plug I failed to label. That should be fun. HARNESS 3:Hardly a harness, it connects the battery and the fusebox atop the battery. HARNESS 4: Includes coilpack wiring, injector wiring, one of the ECU connectors and various connections about the block and head. HARNESS 5: Secondary air pump, PS pump, starter motor, shift linkage, MAF, ABS and one of the ECU connections. HARNESS 6: all the ceiling stuff, like sunroof, maplights, vanity lights. The rest is on the main car harness.</edit>

The next thing I did was to get the damn GTI out from under all that lumber, so I can jack it up properly and get both doors and the hatch completely open with walking room all around. This required moving two cars that don't have a front suspension on them. Sounds fun, right? I know what you're thinking: "Jeez, a car without a motor in it can't be that heavy, why not just pick up the front and pull it around?" Well, this isn't a wheelbarrow, folks, and I'm not exactly Mr. Universe. So we deal with what we've got...which turned out to be a rickety old wooden...apple cart is the only thing I can think of. The thing had cast iron wheels, and was definitely sturdy enough to act as a dolly under the front of the car. Here's a few pics...it was a little funny...guess you had to be there. And AmazedOne, don't worry, I didn't give myself a hernia, nor drop anything on my toe

Here's a pic of something kinda interesting: I pulled the badge from the trunk of the Jetta, and I may be modifying the lock cylinder to mate into my mk3 badge, so I can relocate my keyhole, use the mk4 key for my trunk and shave my keyhole when I get the car resprayed. That's down the road, but it's good that I have all the lock cylinders with which to play with ideas. Big project spawns tons of little projects.

I also had it cross my mind that, once I get into the rear door innards of the mk4, I may find that the lock units will fit into the GTI doors a little better. Maybe not, but it's something to check. Gotta be mindful of the Comfort System rules, though. Need to connect all original components, even if the rear door components are hidden from view.


Modified by punkassjim at 12:10 PM 10-29-2004

[95mk3jetta8v]

What engine code is that? I did a search for 1.8t's and came up with 2.

AWW
&
AWD

What's the difference. Is the AWD able for an All Wheel Drive system? Or is that just a model # that means something totally different? Thanks...

[punkassjim]

It's just an engine code. Just happens to be an acronym, but it's only a coincidence. For more info, click here. Read the whole thread, it's a good resource.

[punkassjim]

updated the descriptions on those wiring harnesses. Lots more to post, including pics as stuff makes its way back into the GTI, but I need to charge the camera battery and...oh yeah...sleep. Dash might go in tomorrow, dog willing (crosses fingers).

[punkassjim]

wrote this up last night, but this morning the camera was charged. 'round lunchtime, time to post it.

The wheels aren't perfect, but for a totaled car, they're damn close. The first two pictures show the worst wheel curbage, and the third shows some peeling of the clearcoat on the machined lips. I think all four wheels have those types of blemishes on the lips. Easily fixed, though. Plus, they're 2-piece, so fixing and powdercoating the centers would be easier and cheaper.

I installed the pollen filter housing into the mk3 plenum, and it fit perfectly. MUCH nicer feature than that crummy screen in the second picture. I can only imagine how much debris has been run through the blower motor over the years.

Got the mk4 heater/blower installed too. I LOVE it when things just bolt right up!

For those of you who are wondering why it's not possible to just swap the suspension from the mk4 to the mk3, here is why:

I'm currently debating whether or not I want to hook up the fuel evap system or not. Problem is, there might be hookups on the mk4 fuel tank that aren't present on the mk3, and I've got two mostly-full fuel tanks to siphon if I'm gonna be removing them. Where do I store approximately 15 gallons of fuel, and how do I siphon it safely? Here's some pics. The mk3 has 3 fuel lines to the front, mk4 has 4. The Bentley (I don't capitalize bible, but I capitalize Bentley) says that the evap canister is under the right rear wheel well, but then it doesn't say what that blue bubbly-looking thing is that's under the right front fender. Anyone know? I thought that was the evap canister, so now I'm corn-fused.

Another reason why I might need to remove the fuel tank from both cars: it would be a good idea to swap the mk4 rear brake lines into the GTI, but they run right over the fuel tank. Drat. Here's some pictures showing my corroded rear brake lines, and the nice new mk4 lines. Note how the mk4 lines are bent in a different direction for the hookups to the ABS unit. My old ABS unit was integral with the booster/reservoir, so the lines connect in a different direction.

Here's some pics of what all this time has been spent on: the GTI has been stripped pretty bare, aside from the front door panels, and the Jetta is not only bare, it's a skeleton:

I got into pulling the wiring harnesses through the firewall yesterday, and quickly noticed I'd have to edit the firewall openings. The mk4 has an odd-shaped hole where the harness goes through, and a screw-in odd-shaped grommet. The mk3 has several nondescript openings, two of which I used for the purpose, but I had to cut a notch in one.

The cluster of wires that rests in the hole isn't so bad, but from there forward, it branches in a large way...tough to get it all through that little hole. I had pretty good luck getting most of it through, but when I got to that huge connector for the ABS unit, I knew it wasn't gonna fit, what with that thick group of wires already being in the way. I removed the back cap from the ABS plug to minimize girth, but I still had to cut a notch in the hole...

Here's a pic of the notch I cut. It's similar to the one in the mk4 firewall, and I hope to cut it exactly to shape, so I can re-use that screw-in grommet:

This big plastic shroud was the pass-thru for some wiring that went into the cabin through the driver's side of the plenum. The hole in the mk4 plenum was about the same size as the hole for the pollen filter, but I wasn't about to cut that hole in my mk3. I cut the grommet out of the shroud, still attached to the wires, and routed it through a free hole in the firewall (someone remind me to run my amp wiring before I finish with the firewall).

More to come...


Modified by punkassjim at 12:33 PM 10-29-2004

[VRC-YA]

Question...is the wiring the same as for an AWD and AWW or is it slightly different? Also do you think I may be able to splice that wiring into an A2 or do you just think its easier to use the MK4 harness. Also are you using the MK3 accessories or are you gonna use the MK4 accessories(PS, AC, ABS...). I kind of see a mix of both in there...

[punkassjim]

Quote, originally posted by VRC-YA »

I kind of see a mix of both in there...

In where? The engine bay was bare the last I knew If you mean the power steering fluid reservoir, I just never bothered to disconnect it. I'm probably gonna replace it with the mk4 reservoir, though.

The wiring harness for the AWD, as opposed to the AWW, I'm guessing is different, but only slightly. It's still a mk4, and it's still a 1.8T. On the other hand, all cars' harnesses are unique to that car's set of factory options. In the mk3 world, everyone told me that if I did a power window swap, they'd bet the necessary wires were just coiled up inside the dash, unused. EH! Wrong. And I never DID quite find the exact right power window harness, because there were slight differences in the 2-door harnesses from 95 to 96 to 97. Then there's the whole 2-door or 4-door thing. Anyway, my point is: don't bet on a harness being a harness, cause it never works out that way.

As for splicing the wiring into the mk2, yes, it can be done. Check out Louis' thread. He's doing a hell of a job.

Me, I'm using as many of the mk4 accessories as I possibly can. I want a mk4 with a mk3 shell. I'm using the mk4 PS pump with the mk3 PS rack. I'm using the complete mk4 AC system (in fact, I just finished installing the heat/AC box and the refrig lines). I'm using the complete mk4 ABS system with ASR (not sure if it has EDL too, but I don't think so).

As for tonight, I spent most of it helping Tone do some routine maintenance.

Then I did this:

Modified by punkassjim at 12:35 PM 10-29-2004

[punkassjim]

you know why I'm smiling??? cause now I'll have an honest-to-god-friggin GLOVE BOX!

[VRC-YA]

That looks sweet! So since the suspension won't work...does that mean the axles won't fit either?

[Capt.Dreadz]

Quote, originally posted by h2lme2000 »

Looking good Artie.

[punkassjim]

Quote, originally posted by VRC-YA »

That looks sweet! So since the suspension won't work...does that mean the axles won't fit either?

The shocks and springs in the rear won't work, but the front struts would probably work if I REALLY was determined. I'm not. I'll just keep my cup kit. As for the axles, they won't fit until I get the components for Plus Suspension, and I'm hoping to do that later this week. Once I get all that, I should be able to get the motor in and started up. It's all going pretty quickly now.

[VRC-YA]

I just wanna let you know that this info is bein' very helpful for me and I thank you guys for doing this for everybody on the Vortex to get info. Anywayz, the Plus suspension only came on the Corrado right?

[punkassjim]

Thanks man, I'm glad to be of help. As for the Plus Suspension, it came on every car that had a VR6, Corrado, mk3 Jetta/GTI and Passat. I believe the subframe and stuff are different from Passat to Corrado to mk3, so I'd go for the stuff that came from a mk3.

No new pictures, cause I didn't spend much of last night workin on the car. I'm missing a few components that I need to continue the large steps, like installing the steering column. When I do the Plus Suspension, I'm just gonna get a whole new rack and subframe, so it's easier to just unbolt and re-install the new one. Since that's the case, there's no point in putting the steering column back in, and hence, I should leave the dash as-is for now.

There's a bracket that goes from the mk4 dash support forward to the plenum-top (right inside the windshield) that gets bolted into the mk4, but there is no hole to bolt it into the mk3. Rather than drilling an imperfect hole in a tight space, I'm just gonna leave out that little bracket. Problem: now there are only 4 bolts holding the dash support in. Reassurance: that thing doesn't even wiggle. It seems sturdy (famous last words. I am reminded of Sidney Musberger's tailor in The Hudsucker Proxy).

Anyway, I've got a bunch of other things to take care of before I can get the motor in and running anyway. But it looks like this week might be shot for time to work on it.

[punkassjim]

Sunroof motors side-by-side. mk3 on the left, mk4 on the right.

EDIT: images have been archived to my imagestation album.
:http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4289589937

Sunroof motor drive gears, compared; note the shaft on the mk3 motor/gear is longer. The mk4 gear doesn't reach far enough into the mk3 sunroof to grab hold. I'll fix that.

EDIT: images have been archived to my imagestation album.
:http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4289589937

Innards. The mk4 unit uses a more efficient set of gears, and I was not sure I should take it apart more than this. I'll try another night to exchange the drive gears, or make the mk4 shaft longer somehow.

EDIT: images have been archived to my imagestation album.
:http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4289589937


Modified by punkassjim at 2:38 AM 5-20-2004

[punkassjim]

awyeah...my rewrapped seats are getting picked up by UPS tomorrow. Gotta go buy some black dye to make all the plastic parts black too. Sucks that I'll have to disassemble them a bit for this, but oh well. In the end, they'll rock.