1.8T swap into mk3 GTI

[punkassjim]

also, I'm thinking of buying a mk3 VR6 shifter box and using the mk4 cables, rather than try to retrofit the mk4 shift box into the mk3. Which do YOU think I should do? There are pros and cons either way.

[punkassjim]

your basic, garden-variety VW window regulator is made up of several components:

1. the motor with drive gear
2. the driven wheel
3. the cable, which winds around the driven wheel
4. the bracket that the motor bolts to
5. the window sliders with cable-rollers

The driven wheel gets sandwiched between the motor gear and the bracket. When the motor turns, the cable spools either one way or the other on that driven wheel, and the window mounts are driven in unison up or down.

In the mk4, the window motor serves many more purposes than in the mk3. Its attached control module is also that DOOR's control module for the comfort system. If you don't have that window motor with control module in there, then say goodbye to convenience-close/open, and the mk4 keyless alarm system and a whole lot of other interconnected systems.

Just for fun tonight (after I got some semi-bad news from luke ) I pulled myself away from the interior and sat down with some window regulators, to see what the prospects were.

mk3 window regulator:

mk4 window regulator and the "assembly carrier" that I drilled it off of:

my new hybrid mk3.75 window regulator:

Don't get too excited, it's not a perfect fit....but it does show some promise. I use the following parts:
1. mk4 motor with drive gear
2. mk3 driven wheel
3. mk3 cable, which winds around the driven wheel
4. mk4 bracket that the motor bolts to
5. mk3 window sliders with cable-rollers and glass clamps

The problems are few, but are caused by the following facts: the mk3 cable is fatter than the mk4 cable. the mk3 driven wheel is larger in diameter by about 1/2 to 2/3mm. the cable spooled on the wheel, pressed into the bracket...fits too snug in there. It's not TOO bad, but I can imagine, over time, the window motor burning out from too much friction...or maybe the pinch-protection will kick in every third time I use the window.

But, as far as I can tell, there is nothing wrong with me trying to bore out the bracket by 1/2mm and seeing if that helps. We'll see. Project for another day, but I'm happy with today's results.

Here's another pic of the dash, before I have to rip it all apart again. That's the bad news I got from Luke. He said I'm gonna have to weld an extension onto the mk4 steering column in order for the end to reach the steering gear. fuque.

Modified by punkassjim at 5:12 PM 10-29-2004

[George]

NICE! loving the progress

[jamesb]

actually nice progres.

As for the control module, you need it just for the power locks to work. So great job on your hybrid.

[punkassjim]

my next question is, what can I do about the break-prone window regulator? They make metal clips to replace the plastic ones on the mk4, but I don't want to gamble that they won't fit on the mk3's regulator tracks. Might just leave it as-is, and if it ever breaks, I'll just go to the junkyard for parts. At least I'm slightly handy

[punkassjim]

Thanks, UPS man!

Modified by punkassjim at 1:01 PM 10-29-2004

[troze1200]

Fix the regulator now. This car should be absolutely perfect.

[punkassjim]

Quote, originally posted by troze1200 »

Fix the regulator now. This car should be absolutely perfect.

1. there are no metal replacement clips with which to "fix it" for good.
2. hence, if it ain't broke, fixing it is moot.
3. the car isn't gonna be anywhere near perfect for a loooong time. It was totaled in December of last year, and the fender and hood are still rumpled from that. Given what I'm doing to it now, I'm not gonna be able to afford the paint, fender, hood and slight unibody straightening that it needs...it'll be a year or so until it's all done.

For now, in my world, busted-ass fender == pseudo sleeper. At least it looks fairly good from the driver's side.

[punkassjim]

Pierce calls me today, wants his engine hoist back. Understandable, since I told him I'd have it a couple'a days, and didn't return it for 3 months

Anyway, yeah, this it the engine hoist that STOPPED WORKING before I got the 1.8T into my car. I tried everything short of taking the ram to a hydraulic repair shop. Couldn't get it to work. So he wants it back, and I borrow my friend Scott's Jeep to transport it back up there.

I take it apart and load it up. I plug the hole with electrical tape, so it doesn't leak jack oil all over Scott's trunk. I go to Pierce's. I take it out the Jeep and reassemble it. Just for grins, I put a wrench in the lever and push it.

The damn thing WORKS!

So there I am, sitting in b'ville with this inCREDulous look on my face, talking to amazedone on the phone, trying to grasp why I shouldn't keep myself up until 3am putting the motor in my car and doing this all over again before work at 8 tomorrow morning. Yeah. It's been one of those nights. And now, again, I have to pay someone else for use of their engine hoist.

Mother Trucker.

[punkassjim]

sent an email to Bent Metal Customs. Getting estimate for some of the custom metal and trunk-release work. Depending on their prices, we'll see if I can do that fender, hood and paint. Junkyards are good for parts.

[punkassjim]

Luke rocks, man. Why does Luke rock, you ask? Here's why Luke rocks:

Not only does he do good, good things to a phat, phat car...

NOT ONLY does he matter-of-factly offer to help me out by modifying my steering column...

NOT ONLY does he let borrow his engine hoist to get these wheels a-turnin...

...but he also happens to be a cool guy to talk to, helpful as can be, laid back as can be. Dude, I definitely owe you a 12-er of your favorite cold ones. And we all know...a one that is not cold...is hardly a one at all.

And hey, if you want in on the action of welding in the seat brackets, you're definitely my first pick for paying to do the job!

anyway, the column bolted up PERFECT. Wheels ARE a-turnin! Here's a few pics of the joints that got cut, and the resulting column:

The first pic is the universal joint that was cut from the bottom of the mk4 column. The second pic was cut from the center piece of the mk3 column. Hard to explain...there are 3 parts to the mk3 column: the one that connects to the rack, the one that slip-joins onto that, and the column itself, which joins onto the thing in picture 2 which I cut off.

The other half of that middle piece is the important part. The slip-joint half. The fork. Luke welded it onto the newly ground-down end of the mk4 column, and voila: we are ready to bolt it into the car, and slip together the slip joint. Works like a charm. I'll try to take another pic or two tomorrow. The pace shall pick up.


Modified by punkassjim at 1:04 PM 10-29-2004

[evolveVW]

Luke is the man. is there anything else you need... my schedule clashes with yers big time and I am going to be starting a 2.0 swap into a Rabbit next weekend as well as getting ready to put an 02A in my car but let me know... I gotta go out and see luke.. he has truck parts I want

[lukedwag]

Jim its all on the level man

Vinnie u tool have fun at h20 haha .......02a ? g60 trans ? waht about the 2y ??? if the quife is good let me im done for that

[punkassjim]

Lunch breaks are just too damn short.

I went to install the mk3 front motor mount on the 1.8T today, and there's a problem: I don't think the bolts are long enough to fit from the starter motor, through the bellhousing and through the front motor mount. The mk3 bolts are the right thread size, but way too short. The mk4 bolts are MAYBE long enough (but I don't really trust "maybe"), but definitely too large a thread. Where do I go to get such a huge replacement bolt?

Anyway, thanks Vin. I think I might have it under control but you can always give me a call and stop down whenever you want. I always appreciate company, but I also tend to work slower when there are people around. Too much gabbin', not enough wrenchin'.

But I'm so close, I can smell it. I've got a good list of things to accomplish tonight, including brake lines, ABS controller mounting, interior re-assembly and various other things.

once I get the brake and clutch system connected and bled, engine installed and wired, rad connected and coolant filled, intercooler connected, and...what else? I think it should START!

Oh yeah, and FedEx shipment tracking SUCKS. I WANT TO KNOW WHERE IT _IS_, DAMMIT!


Modified by punkassjim at 1:06 PM 10-29-2004

[lukedwag]

u might be best off getting a metric tap set and tapping the mk3 mount for the mk4 bolts if there long enough

[lukedwag]

FYI I have metric tap and dye set

[jamesb]

mk3 starter bolts for a O2A or a O2O? the O2A IE vr6 and corrado trans bolts should work, 2.0L starter and bolts wont.

[punkassjim]

Quote, originally posted by jamesb »

mk3 starter bolts for a O2A or a O2O? the O2A IE vr6 and corrado trans bolts should work, 2.0L starter and bolts wont.

ah, that actually might be my best bet...I've got a tap and die set, but I don't feel comfortable tapping that motor mount if the mk4 bolts might be too short. crap, another thing to source

EDIT: vin, you don't have a set of those bolts I could borrow in the meantime, do you?


Modified by punkassjim at 3:15 PM 9-24-2003

[punkassjim]

gonna go down to a nut & bolt shop tomorrow to just have the bolts made. don't want to wait, don't want to tap.

THE BRAKES FIT! I'm so stoked. The mk4 11.3" brakes fit perfectly with the right combination of parts. Basically, all I needed was the caliper carrier bolts from a mk3 (any mk3), and the 11.3" rotors from any late mk3 vr6. It looks so, SO pretty. The set-screw for the rotor broke off, so I'm gonna have to drill is and easy-out it. Other than that I'm just happy the damn things FIT. The stainless lines are installed, and I can't wait to see how they STOP!.

Got the dash back together today after finishing the re-install of the steering column. Put the driver's seat back in, just so I can have a convenient place to sit while working on the sunroof motor. Since there are no guarantees that I'll get the mk4 motor to work right away, I cranked it closed by hand, just so it won't be wide open indefinitely once I get the car back on the road It does rain around here, and how!

Anyway, you KNOW I sat in that driver's seat, feeling out the new driving position, testing out the tilt-telescoping wheel, feeling how the 3-spoke leather-wrapped wheel feels...seriously, I was like a kid in a candy store. I came THIS close to hooking up the battery just so I could see those awesome dash lights. All in due time.

[jamesb]

just break the head off with a big bit, then use needle nose to get the set screw out.

patience grasshopper. though between the two of you your enthusiasm has me wondering about doing a swap, but I think I am going to stick with the update to do a 2035 16v turbo. Why not when I can get a perfect already bored block for nothing.

[punkassjim]

the head sheared off with an impact screwdriver. can't reach it with needlenose, so I'll have to use an easy-out. no problem, though.

I wasted some time going to the local nut & bolt place today. friggin' morons. they seriously wasted half an hour of my time for NOTHING. Then I go to the VW dealership, and I'm 5 minutes late for getting free overnight shipping on bolts. Mothertrucker. So basically, now I'm paying about $20 for two bolts.

Luke, I'll give you a call tomorrow about getting the hoist back to you. As far as I can tell, I need to place the motor in to check fitment for the ABS unit, then take it out for a bit so I can finish up with installing that, then I put it back in for good.

Until the right bolts come in, I'm gonna remove the starter motor and see if the bolts are long enough THEN to just put the front motor mount on and do the fitment stuff. Need to get things going.

things to do to get it running:
install new starter/mount bolts
hook up the radiator and get coolant filled
connect all wiring and other connections in engine bay
install battery
hook up intercooler (new or old, test-start doesn't matter)
connect CAI and breather filter (somehow)
re-connect vacuum control unit
install hose clamps where one-time clamps were removed
connect DP/Cat and exhaust
install mk4 fuel pump/sender

things to do to get it driveable:
re-install power steering pump
install ABS unit and brake lines
finish installing calipers/rotors
install clutch hydraulic line
bleed the brake/clutch system
mod/install shift box/cables
install driveshafts
check the VAG-Com for DTCs

things to do to get it to pass inspection:
install new e-brake cable guides and cables
install evap canister?
install 2ndary air pump?


Modified by punkassjim at 1:12 AM 4-27-2004

[punkassjim]

I'm thinking about dying the headliner and A,B,C pillars black...thoughts?

[evolveVW]

Dying the interior would be hot.. anyway... I reused my 2.0 front mount bolts with no problem

[punkassjim]

right, but you've got my O2O. With the O2J, the bellhousing is a little wider, so it don't fit

I just figured I'd ask, since you might already have some of the O2A stuff on-hand No worries, though...I'll just wait till tomorrow to get the bolts at the dealership.

[punkassjim]

I am kinda dangerous with a credit card. first the OEM Recaros, now headlight leveling motors. Crap. They were cheap at pgperformance, but they're still fluff. Crap.

[VRC-YA]

Nice f'ng work!!! So did you see if the axles from the MK4 were gonna work on this bad boy yet? Anywayz, like I said nice work

[punkassjim]

The tranny mount brace needed to be cut so it wouldn't interfere with the plug on the shifting mechanism. Just had to cut off the flange on the tranny end, as depicted:

Is this hole supposed be here? I can't figure out what it's for. Makes the manifold look botched.

The bracket that guides the shifter cables needed to be cut too. The part I cut off was just another mounting point, and I'll see, eventually, if it hurts the shifting by not being mounted as stiffly...but that flange was bumping right up against the brake booster, and the motor mounts wouldn't line up.

Here's the test fit, so I could put the ABS unit in there and see where it would fit:

My rotors are pretty. And my calipers fit. Hurrah.

Here's where the ABS unit needs to go. The placement was controlled less by the motor (plenty of room) than by the limitations of the lines. The hydraulic feed lines that go from the master cylinder to the ABS unit are stainless steel, and will only go the way they are designed to go. This worked out well, because their stiffness helps to anchor the ABS unit firmly where it needs to go. Once I connected up the brake lines, that thing is going NOWHERE. Good to know.

EDIT: That last pic is my attempt at drilling mounting points for the ABS in the frame rail. those damn rails are STRONG.

I also connected the hydraulic line from the clutch MC to the slave. No problems, but I did have to bend the line ever-so-slightly.

For some reason, the N75 has DIY hose clamps on it. This kinda makes me wonder about the previous owner. The ECU that was in the car says "Golf IV" on it. I always thought that maybe Pierce had switched them, but didn't really care as long as the car runs. But seeing this makes me think that maybe the previous owner switched them. Maybe he/she had a chipped ECU and N75 J valve ersumthin, and he/she took them off before the car was carted away. I dunno, though, the more I think about it, the less likely I see it to be. Too many other factors...again, as long as the N75 valve isn't shot, I don't really care. I was gonna get a Forge 007 and N75 J someday anyway.

[EDIT] For those who doubt that I was really learning as I went, note that in the above paragraph I was referring to the "N75 valve" when I was clearly looking at a Diverter Valve. Man, I was such a newbie. [/EDIT]

Here it is, installed for good, after the ABS unit was connected. It still doesn't look pretty to me, but I was grinning like a fool last night when I got it done. Amazedone lived up to her screen name last night...she had to admit, she was amazed that it worked. Now let's just make sure it starts.

I picked up the starter/front motor mount bolts on my lunch break and took them to the garage. They are the wrong ones. Here's a tip for you folks: when you order something like an important bolt (like this, for example), DON'T try to get the bolt that LOGIC dictates. Here's why:

The mk3 2.0 bolt is 10mm wide, and shorter than the mk4 1.8T bolt. The mk4 bolt is 12mm wide, 180mm long. The mk4 1.8T bolt seems a little too short, maybe 1cm more would do it. So I look at ETKA with the parts guy, and there's a 190mm bolt for the mk3 VR6, but it's the one for the automatic. I figured the length is what I need, and the numbers seemed to fit. I was wrong. These bolts are WAY too long.

When in doubt, buy for the car that the situation fits. The tranny is an O2J. The O2J is basically just like the O2A. The front motor mount means that the "car," in this situation, is roughly a mk3 VR6 manual. Does this make sense to anyone but me? I hope so, cause I want people to know what kind of mistakes can be made by thinking, and thinking a lot, but thinking about it the WRONG way.


Modified by punkassjim at 5:24 PM 10-29-2004

[punkassjim]

updated that last post with info

[troze1200]

Quote, originally posted by evolveVW »

Dying the interior would be hot.. anyway... I reused my 2.0 front mount bolts with no problem

I need to do mine too.

[punkassjim]

new to-do item:
butcher the mk3 a-pillar connector stations to create a pass-thru for the mk4 door harnesses. can't forget. needs to be done at some point.

[punkassjim]

mk4 fuel pump fits after some creative wiggling. Wiring harness needed to be lengthened, though. I hate soldering...I've got a lot to go.

Modified by punkassjim at 1:16 PM 10-29-2004

[punkassjim]

• power steering pump is installed. Easy as pie
• AC lines are installed again, but I'm thinking they aren't gonna work with the mk3 rad support. Need to bend them.
• Coolant reservoir isn't gonna fit where it needs to go until I can either bend the AC lines outta the way, or have custom ones made
• DP/Cat isn't as plug-and-play as several people said it would be. The cat pipe extends really far back, and the mk3 Magnaflow extends really far forward. Someone please give me advice on how to fix this cheap.
• Installed the poly-ribbed belt, just cause it was easy and it got one more thing off the floor of the garage.
• went to install pass driveshaft, and can't while the motor is in. Don't want to take it out. Will remove strut later and install it that way.
• finished routing the wiring through the plenum. Once I re-mount the wiper linkage, I can close up the plenum and call that done. Wish I could route the fender marker lights to the fenders, but I haven't got them welded in yet. Might never do it. Might not care that much.
• connected up the fuel lines to the rail

Damn I wish I could work on it this weekend. As it stands, it's looking more and more like it'll be another freakin week until I can start, and maybe drive it. I want it I want it I want it.

[punkassjim]

oh yeah, and I installed the front motor mount and starter motor

I ended up using the bolts that were way too long, and just threw a few huge nuts on there to increase the stack height, so the bolts don't extend too far now. They jut out pretty far on the driver's side, but I've got the room to spare over there. I'll get the correct bolts eventually, but for right now, I needed to move on, and I need to get the engine hoist back to Luke. I feel bad for keeping it this long. Pierce was a different story

[zxthinkxz_vw]

love these forums, you can find out all kinds of crucial information. I'm starting a 1.8t project in my mkIII sometime this week. I got a 99 AEB out of a passat and from what ive been reading im pretty excited to see what the results are gonna look like. After its properly cleaned up chipped of course

The only thing i could gather from the other forum is, what mounts am i gonna use when i turn the engine from longitudal to transverse. Someone said i could use the mounts on the mkIII engine block, and local vw mechanic around here said id have to order mkIv engine mounts.

a couple of ther things im noticing:

-the exhaust manifold requires changing because of the direction it comes from the engine.

-On the alternator mounting bracket, there is a small pulley connected to a fan blade, probably have to find another mounting bracket unless the one off the mkIII fits.

btw Jim, i was lookin at apic of your car. you got the same jazz blue gti i have

minus the lights and rims. ive got rh evos Z5000's. gotta love that spoke pattern

[punkassjim]

interesting, I wasn't aware you COULD put a longitudinal motor in a transverse car...but then again, never mind, I've heard of people using AEBs before. Anyway, don't listen to the guy who said to use mk4 motor mounts. He doesn't know what he's talking about. If the block is cast the same way as the AWW, then the bolt allowances are there for the mk3 motor mounts, rear and front. The third mount is on the tranny, and the mount depends on the tranny you're using.

You should know, though, that you car isn't Jazz Blue. It's either Catalina Blue or Porcelain Blue...not sure if they offered Porcelain in 1996, but Jazz was only on 1997 Driver's Editions. If it's got a distinctly purple-ish hue to it, it's Catalina Blue.

As for progress (as if there wasn't enough today), I didn't get the driveshafts from FedEx today (bastids), but I tried installing the passenger one without pulling the motor back out. Ain't gonna happen. And from the looks of it, the shafts might be too long.

Modified by punkassjim at 1:19 PM 10-29-2004