alternate power source

[FoxII]

Has anybody ever considered the possibility of supercharging
instead of a turbo. I say this because the exhaust manifold
problem would then be non existant and there are a lot of mini
superchargers such as those made by rotrex that can provide
a lot of power and would only have to be bolted on. They even
make some superchargers that have self contained lubricating
systems. I checked one model that was only 14.7cm long.
With a change in pulleys the belt can easily be attached within
the foxes limited engine space. since the fox is the outcast maybe
the other vw's can be turbo and the fox should buck the trend and
go supercharged.

[vwmann1]

I have built and installed both types of FI and I must say I would lean toward the SC route. It is much more linear for the street. The turbo is just too switch-like for my taste. The turbo can be made to be more linear but the cost would be too much. It would only take a small amount of boost to get you to the 200hp area but I'm afraid that it will take some large injection changes to pull off. You could find a G-60 to get the Digi-I system and that would solve lots of problems. There are not tons of corrados being parted out though.

[HiJinx]

I know I and another on here have lookin into SC quite intensly. I like the idea.

[Ol' Grey Fox]

For years I've been throwing around the idea for a 'switchable' supercharger, that is to say one that can be turned off or on depending on the driver's needs. A roots style is right out for the obvious reasons of how the impeller functions. The G-60 seemed to be a workable solution in that it allows normal airflow while not in motion, except that the output is far too low to make more than a small difference. What about these small rotex units that were mentioned? Are they free-flowing or woulf one have to make a fancy intake with flaps and servos and such to provide sufficient air when the device is switched off?

Just some ideas out to throw arouns out there... Personally, I'd be all into having the lower right hand switch on my console give me the whoosh and whine of a blower.

[HiJinx]

I know this is a bit pricey, but have yall looked at Lysholms?
They would be almost perfect of a fox. . .

[angusmf]

Old style roots superchargers are an excellent application for a bypass valve. They don't do any internal compression (unlike the lysholm/whipple ones, which look similar) so if bypassed, they use hardly any HP. The problem with them is that they are pretty much the bottom of the barrel in terms of efficiency.

[Ol' Grey Fox]

The concept that I had in mind for a bypass would assign an electrically clutched pully (Think AC compressor) to a small SC unit. Near enough to zero power usage while turned off, but when the power is applied, power is applied.

Now this raises questions of a clutched pully that is going to be durable enough to take the abuse of running a supercharger and then the matter of plumbing with bypass gates and all of that. Sadly enough, this is about the point where my research broke down. I ended up getting cars that wouldn't take kindly to fiorced induction or ones that it would be just plain silly on (A blown '73 Dodge 1-ton work van?) and the planning stages never really crossed from the theoretical into the practical.

So now I ask those much wiser than I in these matters, is this a viable plan? Can I have 'instant-on' power without resorting to nitrous? Would something along these lines work or would I have to experience the HP drain under 'off' running conditions?

Maybe this should go in the FI thread, but that seems more turbo oriented which is not what I'm looking to research. An additional question, assuming all the other stuff can be worked out, would be the choice of cam and valve sizes. What's it going to take to get 200 bhp out of the motor with the blower on? Can I get 100 with it off and 200 with it on?

Okay, I'll stop asking questions now.

[ErikLyon]

I don't fully understand why you would want to turn it off at all?

[Evilclown]

Something you might want to look into - a while back, a friend of mine was telling me about a clutched SC kit for the Jeep CJ's 289 I-6. I don't remember who made it, or if it's still even available, but it would merit some research to see how they set it up.

[Ol' Grey Fox]

Quote, originally posted by ErikLyon »

I don't fully understand why you would want to turn it off at all?

Well, an SC takes HP and turns it into increased intake pressure. For most driving, I would prefer to save that HP and turn it into better fuel economy instead.

[ErikLyon]

Oh I see, it is for the fuel economy! I understand that the supercharger uses power to run but personally I would say to hell with fuel economy. I want more power all the time. It could never use as much gas as the 400 cube engine in my 4500 pound 62 chrysler!

[angusmf]

On a roots supercharger, the bypass does essentially what you want without the complication of an electromagnetic clutch. As I said, they use virtually no power if they aren't pumping air. Screw-types like Lysholm, OTOH, are a good place to use the clutch idea. Since they actually compress air internally, rather than just by pumping it into an enclosed space (the intake), they use power whenever they are spinning. A bypass isn't as great a help.

Check out the supercharged series II Buick/Olds/Pontiac 3.8 engines. They use a bypass valve except at WOT. Compare the mileage figures to the same engine without the supercharger, and it looks pretty good for a 240HP motor with a boatload of torque.

[TeraFox]

Quote, originally posted by HiJinx »

I know I and another on here have lookin into SC quite intensly. I like the idea.

Has anybody seen AcidReflux? He claims to have a G60 Fox. He lives in CA somewhere. Perhaps I can meet him when I am in Callie for a year. Fox somebody who has made such a significant stride in north American FI Foxes, he is conspicuously absent from these discussions.

[FoxII]

The rotrex superchargers are suppose to use
to use a pump similar to a tesla pump. Yes the
same tesla that invented wireless radio and
ac current. This pump uses the viscosity of a fluid
run between plates to spin an impellar. as the speed
of the driven plate increases; the drag increases causing
the other plates to spin faster. what makes this unique is
that the supercharger doesn't need a clutch it is automatically
calibrated by the running engine. And the harder you stomp
on it the more drag and hence the more supercharged effect.
Your fuel economy should not go down that much at normal
driving conditions because that is when drag will be at its
lowest (with the exception of the car being turned off) and
you will get the most slippage on the plates. Your AC compressor
will probably produce more hp loss. The dimensions seem right
for a perfect fit. It only then becomes a question of where to
mount it and sealing of the airbox intake system.

[FoxII]

400 cu inch chrysler. If you say cuda I'm gonna cream!!!

[Coolwhite Fox]

Quote, originally posted by TeraFox »

Has anybody seen AcidReflux? He claims to have a G60 Fox.

I thought he said it caught fire and is no more.

[TeraFox]

Quote, originally posted by Coolwhite Fox »

I thought he said it caught fire and is no more.

Yeah, I know. It seemed like something he said to get others--like myself--off his back. I know I rode him pretty hard for a while because I didn't believe he had a G60 in a Fox. There are so many clearance issues that he never addressed, you know?

[Eric Happy Meal]

the more i think about it, the more i think about going iwth an sc, but what you said about having it turn on/off isnt something id consider, mainly because of the cam, your either going to have a cam to run well with the sc off, and wont get as much power as with the sc on, and vise versa. from what ive been told your car also wont idle right with the sc off. but thats merly from what ive been told about other cars, but i dont have any experience with it myself...

[littlesnides]

A while back I was thinking about the whole g60 thing b/c someone had the whole supercharger setup and they were willing to take me step by step how to do it ....but I turned it down bc of lack of money at the time...I believe it was acidreflux that was gonna do it he said really the only clearance issue w/ the g60 is the radiator....if it wasn't him it was someone else told me you need a flatter one to be able to fit the supercharger

[UnterHund]

The easiest way is to find a junked Corrado G60. Take the entire G60 Digifant I system, and the motor along with the charger of course.
take the IC also, but i suggest finding a better one.
The biggest issue is the radiator. the G-lader needs to sit there.
So, you will need to create or have created a custom front mount radiator. If you have AC, remove it. Then figure it out from there. This isn't brain surgury. Its simple "does it fit? or doesn't it? Oh, it doesn't, what needs to be changed to make it fit" sort of thing.

[Ol' Grey Fox]

How about replacing the AC compressor with a Rotrex? If I had a couple grand to spend on the project (and was willing to get rid of my AC system) that's certainly the way I'd go. The air box snorkel is right there to blow into, so all you'd really have to do would be fabricate the mount bracket and arrange a heat shield (due to exhaust mani proximity) so that you're not adding undue stress. Plus of course the pressure control and CIS lean-out (or Digi KS) issues that would come with any method of boosting a Fox.

Using the entire G60 setup and dealing with rad relocation just seems to me like more work than is strictly necessary for the sake of using inefficient VW factory parts over a more modern unit.

[HiJinx]

Ok, I'm gonna hop down into retard land here and ask...what is a rotrex?

[Coolwhite Fox]

Its a centrifugal supercharger, sort of like a belt driven turbo.

[HiJinx]

hmmm. interesting. any links to a company or pics?

[Coolwhite Fox]

http://www.rotrex.eu.com

[Ol' Grey Fox]

Just went out and made some measurements, the Rotrex SP30-74 is almost the exact same dimensions as a stock Fox AC compressor. And the C15 is even small enough to mount above the AC unit facing the 'wrong' way around. No room for an air filter without cutting the grille, but it will fit.

This would solve all of the G60 rad relocation issues and any fitting concerns. Anyone willing to pony up a couple grand to try and become the first 200 HP blown Fox? I'd do it had I the cash to spare.

[Eric Happy Meal]

hrmm.....i think i might go do that. what would you suggest for ecu, and fuel delivery??

[Ol' Grey Fox]

IIRC, you've got the Digifant. I know near enough to nothing about Digi injection, so my suggestion would be to go with a Megasquirt system (or something similar) that you can map out a custom setup for. I mean, anything's better than the Fox Digi, right?

[NewfieVWFOX]

How much horsepower would an average super charger give ya on a cis-e fox? Also if my fox dosent have A/C Is the place still there to bolt up a supercharger?

Thanks

[Coolwhite Fox]

Well, you can't just rattle off numbers. What you gain would depend on other factor, such as pulley size, efficiency of whatever supercharger you use and so on.

[Eric Happy Meal]

maybe ill swap in a 2.0 litre 8v and go from there, is there one that came with a CIS-e injection? and is there any difference from the exterior of the block between the two engines?

[Coolwhite Fox]

The ABA is taller than the 3A. You can bolt the 1.8 8V head to either of them and go from there, which has been discussed countless times. One would know that if one looked around a bit...

[Eric Happy Meal]

give me a couple months and ill tell ya how it works then.

[Coolwhite Fox]

Don't forget to replace the muffler bearings, blinker fluid, and add new cross drilled brake lines while your at it there chief.

[NewfieVWFOX]

LMAO