Abner Doble was an American who was a true genius, and he's forgotten today, which is a shame, because not only did he truly innovate in the engineering sense, but he started a car company that built the greatest steam-engined automobiles ever built, and surely the most beautiful. Doble has a long and intriguging history, but here's a good thumbnail version link: http://www.automotivehalloffam...ctees .
As to Rule #1, for your eyeball's enjoyment:
1925 Dobles (last year of production):
Modified by vwlarry at 7:27 AM 3-15-2007
Post Title: Re: Doble Steam-Powered, The Greatest External Combustion Car Ever... (vwlarry)
Posted by: RabbitsKin at 9:13 AM 3-15-2007
| Quote » |
| "Abner Doble learned the unfortunate lesson that you can do everything right and still not succeed. Early automobile manufacturers had to decide on the source of energy to power the automobile: steam, electric or gasoline. Against the prevailing and growing dominance of the gasoline engine, Abner Doble gambled on steam. Doble built his first steam car while still in high school. He left the Massachusetts Institute of Technology to pursue his dream of building the finest steam car in the world. By 1918 he had built 80 steam cars in Detroit. In 1920, Doble and his brothers, all engineers, moved their steam car business to Emeryville, California, where they built 42 additional cars before being forced out of business because of changing consumer demands in America. Although history has proven that Doble made the wrong choice, his steam-powered cars were engineering marvels of the day. The 1924 model Doble steam car, which could run for 1,500 miles on a 24-gallon tank, had a flash boiler the could produce a working head of steam in one minute. It was a luxury car that film stars and royalty were proud to own. When the gasoline powered car finally triumphed, Doble traveled the world as a steam power consultant. " |
So fill in the gaps for us Larry. I've never heard of this car.
What fuel did it burn to generate the steam? Great looking coachwork on that Maroon roadster.
Modified by RabbitsKin at 9:14 AM 3-15-2007
Post Title: Re: Doble Steam-Powered, The Greatest External Combustion Car Ever... (RabbitsKin)
Posted by: axe at 9:27 AM 3-15-2007
Do they go chugga-chugga-chugga ? 
Post Title: Re: Doble Steam-Powered, The Greatest External Combustion Car Ever... (axe)
Posted by: Sledge at 9:35 AM 3-15-2007
| Quote, originally posted by axe » |
Do they go chugga-chugga-chugga ? |
They go chitty chitty bang bang 
Post Title: Re: Doble Steam-Powered, The Greatest External Combustion Car Ever... (axe)
Posted by: vwlarry at 10:32 AM 3-15-2007
An interesting teaser factoid about Doble's cars is that they could be driven away under their own power in one minute or less, even when the ambient temperature was below freezing! A British publication conducted a controlled test to confirm this in the twenties, and it amazed everyone. One of the greatest drawbacks to steam engines in cars is that they ordinarily take a long time to get up to operating steam-pressure, so one must plan ahead when driving the things. Abner Doble's patented system conquered this, along with his closed-condenser system of water recycling, which resulted in much longer range between water fillups, through the condensation and re-use of water instead of exhausting it as waste-steam. He was a VERY clever fellow. 
Post Title: Re: Doble Steam-Powered, The Greatest External Combustion Car Ever... (vwlarry)
Posted by: axe at 10:34 AM 3-15-2007
How efficient is it compared to a gasoline-powered car?
Post Title: Re: Doble Steam-Powered, The Greatest External Combustion Car Ever... (vwlarry)
Posted by: Sledge at 10:38 AM 3-15-2007
(this is "Figure 2" from the text below)
| Quote, originally posted by Abner Doble » |
"In order to have efficient working it is necessary to provide for high expansion. This can be obtained with a compound engine, but not satisfactorily, as the ratio of cylinder volumes has to be carefully determined in relation to the probable loads, speeds and steam-chest pressures. These conditions vary so widely that the single expansion engine, Fig. 2, is necessary. To provide the high expansion desirable, with a simple noiseless valve gear and one valve per cylinder, it is imperative to use the uniflow principle. In the uniflow engine the valve takes care of the steam inlet only, the exhaust passing out through ports at the end of the stroke when these are uncovered by the piston. It is thus possible to secure cut-off at 5 per cent of the stroke. Since the thermal conditions in the uniflow cylinder are practically ideal, it is unnecessary to use superheated steam. This means that little cylinder lubrication is required, and the troubles formerly caused by superheated steam are absent." However... following experience with the Doble-Detroit double-acting engine, with no auxiliary exhaust valves to counter excessive compression, Abner Doble later said: "The uniflow engine was found unsuited for use in a motor vehicle. Its economy in motor vehicle service was definitely less than the compound, it was heavier, uncertain in manoeuvring, apt to block on hills (due to the long compression), and undesirable for high speeds due to the very heavy long pistons. The early cut-off necessary to give sufficient expansion produced an irregular torque, quite unsuitable for a motor vehicle, as the torsional vibrations induced in the axle shafts proved extremely annoying and difficult to damp out. A multiplicity of cylinders, although a certain remedy, would lead to prohibitive cost." |
You're right about steam locomotives, though. As much as I love cars, especially race cars, there's something organic about steam locomotives: the smell of the grease and smoke, the complex yet understandable mechanicals, the eerie sound of the steam whistle.
I've even got a model stationary steam engine at home, much like this one. Maybe I'll fire it up tonight. 
Modified by IJM at 11:27 AM 3-15-2007
Post Title: Re: Doble Steam-Powered, The Greatest External Combustion Car Ever... (IJM)
Posted by: RatRedux at 11:54 AM 3-15-2007
| Quote, originally posted by Turbiodiesel! » |
| Interesting. Is there any reason why a modern steamer couldn't be built? |
Here's something interesting from vwlarry's favorite website 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steam_car
| Quote » |
As a result of the 1973 oil crisis, SAAB started a project in 1974 headed by Dr. Ove Platell which made a prototype steam powered car. It used an electronically-controlled 28 pound multi parallel circuit steam generator with 1 millimeter bore tubing and 16 gph firing rate which was intended to produce 160 horsepower, and was about the same size as a standard car battery. Lengthy start-up times were circumvented by a system using compressed air that was stored when the car was running and which powered the car upon starting until adequate steam pressure was built up. The engine used a conical rotary valve made from pure boron nitride. To conserve water, a hermetically sealed water system was used. |
Post Title: Re: (Sledge)
Posted by: Turbiodiesel! at 12:22 PM 3-15-2007
| Quote, originally posted by Sledge » |
Here's something interesting from vwlarry's favorite website http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steam_car |
That's......jesus.....that's awesome.
Wonder how the efficiency and emissions on these things would be, compared to ICEs?
Post Title: Re: (Turbiodiesel!)
Posted by: Sledge at 12:25 PM 3-15-2007
| Quote, originally posted by Turbiodiesel! » |
That's......jesus.....that's awesome. Wonder how the efficiency and emissions on these things would be, compared to ICEs? |
I don't know about mpg but as for emissions:
http://www.popularmechanics.co....html
| Quote » |
I took the Doble to the smog station to have its exhaust certified and its emissions are 13 parts per million, which means my 1925 Doble with its 80-year-old technology passes all current smog laws. Nothing like 2 million BTU to burn up all the fuel. There's nothing left over, literally. It's just pffft. Gone. |
That SAAB engine =
Post Title: Re: (Sledge)
Posted by: cstraw at 1:23 PM 3-15-2007
iirc, Jay Leno is a big fan and advocate of steam powered cars and owns a few himself. Supposedly the power they generate is immense and at a very low rpm (hence their use in locomotives). I also recall reading that one of the reasons they were unpopular with mass market producers was their likeliness to explode. Designing an steam engine to tolerate the crap we put cars through would be quite the task.
The following webpage is rather informative (Q/A style) on the traits of the Stanley Steamer
http://www.stanleymotorcarriag...s.jpg
I like the idea of idling a steamer:
"isn't that a waste of fuel?"
"no, I'm building pressure!"
Great topic!
Chris
Post Title: Re: Doble Steam-Powered, The Greatest External Combustion Car Ever... (vwlarry)
Posted by: uncleho at 1:31 PM 3-15-2007
| Quote, originally posted by vwlarry » |
| When a 16-year-old Abner Doble showed ... |
HOLD ON. WAIT A MINUTE!
16 years old?
Post Title: Re: (cstraw)
Posted by: vwlarry at 1:41 PM 3-15-2007
I strongly recommend that anyone interested in these things find your local steam-power exhibition this summer and GO! It's full of farmers and old-codgers, but they're the ones who still understand these forms of power, and are able to operate these engines and demonstrate them for younger people (even me! ) like us. I guarantee you'll be hooked after you see them in operation. Steam power is almost like a kind of "organic" motive power for vehicles; much moreso than internal combustion engines ever will be. The Threshermen's shows are always lots of fun of "gearheads", and you'll probably discover many things about engines and engineering that you never knew existed.
Post Title: Re: Doble Steam-Powered, The Greatest External Combustion Car Ever... (uncleho)
Posted by: Taimar2 at 2:33 PM 3-15-2007
| Quote, originally posted by Taimar2 » |
| Back then all an engineer needed was talent and a tangible product. Not like today where you have to get a PhD in Nuclear Physics so that you can go design tail-lights for a Chevy Malibu. |
Nuclear physics degrees let you design doorhandles. Rocket science degrees let you do the tail lights
Post Title: Re: (vwlarry)
Posted by: RabbitsKin at 2:52 PM 3-15-2007
| Quote, originally posted by vwlarry » |
| motive power for vehicles; much moreso than internal combustion engines ever will be. The Threshermen's shows are always lots of fun of "gearheads", and you'll probably discover many things about engines and engineering that you never knew existed. |
There is a local show I used to go to a lot when I was a kid, with my Grandad. Indeed, very cool to an impressionable young boy who was mechanically minded.
It's funny how certain technologies get 'dated' by their era -- in the case of steam, you had these massive iron boilers to handle the pressure, and massive iron reciprocating parts to handle the torque, resulting in massively heavy vehicles. Makes you wonder what a fresh approach using modern materials would look like. I'd love to see something like a Cal Tech project along these lines. It'd be really interesting to see how steam's challenges compare to those of the electric vehicles.
Post Title: Re: (vwlarry)
Posted by: IJM at 3:00 PM 3-15-2007
| Quote, originally posted by RabbitsKin » |
Great looking coachwork on that Maroon roadster.
|
My guess is that the maroon roadster is a Murphy creation. It just seems to have that "look". Also, look closely at that particular car, and remember the year it was built. If that is the original bodywork (sometimes these cars were rebodied after several years in order to keep them fashionable by their wealthy owners), then it is quite a piece of "predictive" design work. The crowned fenders, for example, did not become fashionable until the later twenties, as well as the non-drum-shaped headlamps (see the car above it for reference). Drum-shaped headlamps were THE fashion on expensive automobiles from about 1920 until perhaps 1927 or so. In fact, this Doble from 1925 looks strikingly similar to a Rolls Royce Phantom III from the early-mid thirties in many ways. I actually suspect this is a rebodied car for that reason. Nevertheless, it's very attractive. The other car is also really good-looking too, in a more "conventional for its time" sense. Notice how Doble was able, as was Franklin with their aircooled power, to effectively conceal their non-conformism with designs that made them look, for all the world, just as conventional as any other gasoline-powered IC-engined automobile of the time. Very challenging, and they succeeded, IMO.
Post Title: Re: Doble Steam-Powered, The Greatest External Combustion Car Ever... (vwlarry)
Posted by: LSinLV at 5:59 PM 3-15-2007
| Quote, originally posted by LSinLV » |
| shop keep!! fill it with petroleum distillate and re-vulcanize my tires post haste! |
Exxxx-cellent.
Post Title: Re: Doble Steam-Powered, The Greatest External Combustion Car Ever... (vwlarry)
Posted by: RatRedux at 6:32 PM 3-15-2007
Kid: Uh, I better look in the manual.
Burns: Oh, the ignorance.
Post Title: Re: Doble Steam-Powered, The Greatest External Combustion Car Ever... (RatRedux)
Posted by: SVT2888 at 8:36 PM 3-15-2007
| Quote, originally posted by RatRedux » |
| Burns: Yes, I'd like to send this letter to the Prussian consulate in Siam by aeromail. Am I too late for the 4:30 autogyro? Kid: Uh, I better look in the manual. Burns: Oh, the ignorance. |
Great episode.
Post Title: Re: Doble Steam-Powered, The Greatest External Combustion Car Ever... (OLDMercedes-BenzNUT)
Posted by: DUBmanDAN at 9:59 PM 3-15-2007
http://www.jaylenosgarage.com/garage/index.shtml
pretty crazy how the stanley steamer would catch on fire.
Post Title: Re: Doble Steam-Powered, The Greatest External Combustion Car Ever... (uncleho)
Posted by: Viss1 at 12:23 PM 3-16-2007
| Quote, originally posted by uncleho » |
HOLD ON. WAIT A MINUTE! 16 years old? |
| Quote, originally posted by munkey » |
pretty crazy how the stanley steamer would catch on fire. |
The Stanley may have been a fire risk at times, but one thing an owner of a Stanley Steamer didn't have to worry about was a boiler explosion. I read somewhere that there has never been one single recorded instance of a Stanley automobile's boiler exploding. Why is this important? Because back then, the public was accustomed to picking up newspapers and reading about the latest railroad steam locomotive's catastrophic boiler explosion that maimed and killed people by the score, or worse. It was not an uncommon occurrence in the era of steam railroad power. So when trying to convince a prospective buyer of one of your steam-powered automobiles that they're not taking home a disaster-in-waiting, the Stanley brothers went completely over-the-top in taking precautions against such an occurence with their cars. What they did at Stanley was to wind multiple layers of high-tensile piano wire around the boiler, thus girding it in a very effective "containment vessel" that enabled the Stanley boiler to withstand extremely high overpressurization if the control valves were to fail. It was VERY reassuring for customers, apparently, and was a strong selling point for Stanleys.
Post Title: Re: Doble Steam-Powered, The Greatest External Combustion Car Ever... (vwlarry)
Posted by: scottracer at 2:15 AM 3-17-2007
| Quote, originally posted by vwlarry » |
| I really love steam-power. There's hardly anything more awesome to me than the sight of a huge steam-powered locomotive flying down the railroad tracks with its smokestack churning out smoke and its steam exhaust shooting out from the sides of its drive-engines; the huge drive-wheels being spun by the power of steam. |
Another side benefit of hanging around for 61 years is being around when steam locomotives were still in use, albeit at the end of their time. My dad worked for Southern Pacific railroad, and I can still remember the awesome size and power of a 4-8-4 behemoth as if it were yesterday. Sitting on the track, with steam puffing out from safety valves every few seconds, the smell of oil... I didn't have model trains as a kid, because I could go with my dad down to the train yard and "play" with the real ones. I even got to "drive" an old Mallet , sitting on the lap of the engineer. And for totally awesome, there were the 4-8-8-8-0 Big Boys. It's a shame the majority of CLers aren't old enough to have experienced the thrill of seeing these beautiful machines in operation.
Post Title: Re: Doble Steam-Powered, The Greatest External Combustion Car Ever... (scottracer)
Posted by: vwlarry at 7:44 AM 3-17-2007
Everyone has a memory of something that happened to them when they were very, very young; so young that few other events of the time are remembered, so that this event must have been particularly happy/sad/shocking/etc in order to be remembered. I was about five years old, which would make it 1958, and my grandmother's house was directly adjacent to the tracks of the New York Central line that ran north-south through NW Indiana. One day I was sitting on a porchswing by myself (this was out in the country, and a very quiet day), when, in the distance, I remember seeing HUGE clouds of grey smoke rising from a train that was approaching. As it got closer, I remember getting REALLY scared, because this train wasn't like the others that went past all day (diesels were the norm by the late-fifties). The train got closer, and I swear to God, the ground and the house SHOOK like I don't ever recall before or since. This train was composed of nothing but big, dingy grey and tan steam locomotives and their tenders, hooked nose-to-tail, perhaps ten or fifteen of them, and all of them the BIG kind, like maybe 4-8-4 or more. I seem to remember that they were all under power and driving together, and the NOISE and the SMOKE were overwhelming, and REALLY frightening for a five-year-old boy who had never before seen anything like this. It scared the hell out of me! I ran to the tracks after they passed, and I still remember seeing them receding into the distance, all smoke and ghostly grey.
My dad explained to me several years later that those locomotives were on their way to be scrapped at the steel mills up north in Indiana Harbor (he was a steelworker there at the time). Today, I think of that moment often, and it makes me almost cry in sadness for the thought of witnessing the literal swansong of the great American steam locomotive. It was sort of like seeing big, majestic elephants marching to their doom. It still makes me feel sad.
Modified by vwlarry at 7:47 AM 3-17-2007
Post Title: Re: Doble Steam-Powered, The Greatest External Combustion Car Ever... (vwlarry)
Posted by: scottracer at 8:12 AM 3-17-2007
| Quote, originally posted by vwlarry » |
The Stanley may have been a fire risk at times, but one thing an owner of a Stanley Steamer didn't have to worry about was a boiler explosion. I read somewhere that there has never been one single recorded instance of a Stanley automobile's boiler exploding. Why is this important? Because back then, the public was accustomed to picking up newspapers and reading about the latest railroad steam locomotive's catastrophic boiler explosion that maimed and killed people by the score, or worse. It was not an uncommon occurrence in the era of steam railroad power. |
When I was doing genealogy on my Patten roots, I came across an article in the Sonoma Press Democrat , circa 1880's. My great great grandfather had hired a fellow with a steam tractor to do some work on his farm. There was a young man operating it, who's just been married, and with his new wife in attendace (these events apparently drew crowds), the boiler exploded, right after he acknowledged the new bride with a wave, killing him instantly. The reporter indicated it as "another" boiler explosion, so you're right, larry, it appears to have been pretty common. Written in the poetic prose used by reporters of the day , the article was almost humorous, were it not for the death of the young man.
I worked with a friend from Venezuela back in the late '60's who used to do some racing there, and he told me of a steam powered motorcycle someone had created in South America. He said the guy who built it couldn't find anyone brave enough to ride the thing, including my friend.
Post Title: Re: Doble Steam-Powered, The Greatest External Combustion Car Ever... (scottracer)
Posted by: vwlarry at 9:57 AM 3-17-2007
This brings things back to Abner Doble. Since he was a young and well-educated man in the early 20th century (born in 1895 and graduated an engineer from M.I.T.), he was very aware of the latest developments in metallurgy, and took advantage of these new materials and techniques with a flourish. This is what helped him to outsmart the Stanley twins (F.E. and F.O. Stanley were identical twin brothers) and "build a better mousetrap" with his improved steam-engines mounted on much more modern chassis in his Doble cars. Doble was perhaps as committed to, if not even MORE committed to quality than even the Rolls/Royce partners in England, or Henry Leland in America (founder of Cadillac and Lincoln and famed as the "Master of Precision"). His automobiles were world-renowned for their supreme quality of design and construction, and this is perhaps what helped to drive Doble out of the car business by the early thirties. He had very little business-sense, and nefarious stock-dealings done by others in the corporation without his knowledge put the final nail in the Doble automaking era, with only about 125 magnificent machines ultimately built.
It's also revealing to read who drove Doble automobiles. One person who publicly stated that the best car in the world was a Doble was none other than Howard Hughes, who swore by the cars. Many of Hollywood's biggest stars drove Dobles, as did quite a few of Europe's wealthiest and most visible elites. That's one reason why so many of the Doble automobiles built still survive today; they were owned by notable people.
Post Title: Re: Doble Steam-Powered, The Greatest External Combustion Car Ever... (vwlarry)
Posted by: RabbitsKin at 1:27 PM 3-17-2007
This is the station at the town where he lived, where my mother is from. 
Post Title: Re: Doble Steam-Powered, The Greatest External Combustion Car Ever... (RabbitsKin)
Posted by: vwlarry at 1:55 PM 3-17-2007
This shot reminds me of that day when I saw the long line of locomotives described earlier:
My favorite Link photograph. The steam age, the automobile age and the jet age all together, almost surrealistically:
Post Title: Re: Doble Steam-Powered, The Greatest External Combustion Car Ever... (vwlarry)
Posted by: vwlarry at 2:22 PM 3-17-2007
I just finished reading it, and it is the best-written piece I've yet found on the subject. Great reading!
Post Title: Re: Doble Steam-Powered, The Greatest External Combustion Car Ever... (vwlarry)
Posted by: IJM at 4:48 PM 3-17-2007
I bought my dad (he's where I get my interest in all things steam) a VHS tape about 10 years ago on the Union Pacific Big Boy locomotives, which were quite spectacular. Also, I still have the Link calendar up on my wall from last year. It's not steam, but about 5 years ago I played in a band with a guy who just so happened to be an engineer on a local short line hauling coal. We got to talking, and he offered to take me along on an 8-hour shift. I got to drive the 2-engine train part of the way back. Let me tell you, that damn horn is LOUD.
Post Title: Re: Doble Steam-Powered, The Greatest External Combustion Car Ever... (vwlarry)
Posted by: vwlarry at 7:39 AM 4-24-2007
1924 E-Series Doble; last of the line:
Nice shot of the Doble Flashtube boiler (the innovative heart of the Doble Steamer):
BTW, I read an old test of an E-Series Doble where they timed its acceleration. The 0-75mph time was 14 seconds. That is not too shabby for a 5,000-pound automobile built during the Coolidge Administration.
Modified by vwlarry at 7:40 AM 4-24-2007
Post Title: Re: Doble Steam-Powered, The Greatest External Combustion Car Ever... (vwlarry)
Posted by: atomicalex at 8:09 AM 4-24-2007
| Quote, originally posted by atomicalex » |
| I'm enjoying the musings on steam, having grown up a Diesel electromotive girl myself . |
Diesel KILLED steam! Heretic! HERETIC!!
Post Title: Re: Doble Steam-Powered, The Greatest External Combustion Car Ever... (vwlarry)
Posted by: l5gcw0b at 9:08 AM 4-24-2007
Interesting read. Thanks.
Post Title: Re: Doble Steam-Powered, The Greatest External Combustion Car Ever... (vwlarry)
Posted by: 240nut2 at 10:53 AM 4-24-2007
Post Title: Re: Doble Steam-Powered, The Greatest External Combustion Car Ever... (240nut2)
Posted by: DUBmanDAN at 11:26 AM 4-24-2007
| Quote, originally posted by 240nut2 » |
| The Doble was the original Hybrid.... |
Here is the original hybrid in fact. The Lohner-Porsche was propelled by electric hub-motors (front-drive too...ironic considering the Porsche-origin!) that were supplied with juice generated by a gasoline engine. This is a 1900 model. Dr. Porsche patented his "Mixte" system of gas/electric propulsion, and the Lohner Company put it to use in its products. This was the machine that made Ferdinand Porsche famous.
I've never read the details, but considering the erratic and difficult-to-modulate nature of IC engines in the primitive stage that they were in at this time, it probably was perfectly natural for Dr. Porsche to devise a way to use the IC engine without the encumbrance of having to modulate the throttle/engine rpms, and just run the engine as a constant-speed generator powerplant. Carburetors, for example, in the early days were often little more than metal-mesh screens suspended in the intake airstream that had gasoline dripping onto them. The surface tension of the fuel on the screen held the fuel in suspension, and the rush of air over the screen simply atomized and pulled the fuel into the intake charge. Just like you or me sipping a hot cup of tea or coffee.
Modified by vwlarry at 12:44 PM 4-24-2007
Post Title: Re: Doble Steam-Powered, The Greatest External Combustion Car Ever... (DUBmanDAN)
Posted by: vwlarry at 12:32 PM 4-24-2007
| Quote, originally posted by vwlarry » |
| Dr. Porsche patented his "Mixte" system of gas/electric propulsion, and the Lohner Company put it to use in its products. |
They could resurrect the name in a new Porsche hybrid. They could call it the Porsche Mixte System or PMS
Post Title: Re: Doble Steam-Powered, The Greatest External Combustion Car Ever... (Sledge)
Posted by: bratsche at 1:29 PM 4-24-2007
http://www.gizmag.com/go/4936/
Post Title: Re: Doble Steam-Powered, The Greatest External Combustion Car Ever... (vwlarry)
Posted by: l5gcw0b at 2:33 AM 4-25-2007
| Quote, originally posted by vwlarry » |
| I don't know the jots-and-tittles regarding the physics of this, but compressed air would seem to be far less able to propel a given vehicle than steam. Compressed air is "passive" energy, with no expansive ability through heating the way steam does. I'd visualize a HUGE air tank being able to power a vehicle only a short distance, and even then with severely limited (and steeply declining peak-ability) power-output. The efficiency of using a power-source to compress the air in the first place would probably be very poor too. It's an interesting idea though. |
If you are gonna use cylinders and pistons to move your vehicle, you can fill them with exploding fuel(and air), steam, or compressed air. They all expand in the cylinder to provide power. Steam/compressed air systems are very similar, just need to pressurize the boiler on a steam engine(which is what the steam does).
Currrent range is 100-150 miles,
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/air-car1.htm
(if you are interested, search, there are several out there)
Also, I have seen steam engines running on compressed air, and they work fine.
Post Title: Re: Doble Steam-Powered, The Greatest External Combustion Car Ever... (scottracer)
Posted by: Juniper Monkeys at 3:01 AM 4-25-2007
Here's a pic from the Mt. Rainier Scenic Railroad's site - the locomotives themselves aren't too amazing in the grand scheme of things, but it's quite a pic, for being modern.
I don't know the provenance of this shot, but it sure is wonderful. Here's a bit more on the actual train featured, though.
As the link states, it's the largest steam engine still operated.
Anyway, good thread I had only the vaguest inklings of Dobles before.
Modified by Juniper Monkeys at 12:06 AM 4-25-2007
Post Title:
Posted by: l5gcw0b at 8:36 AM 4-25-2007
And don't forget the Baldwin at the Franklin Institute. They knocked out a wall and laid track so it could be driven in under its own power.
In Savannah, GA, there is a local station club that opens house once a year for turntable day, when all the stock is fired and moved around for restoration purposes. You can ride the stock as it is moved and if you are lucky, sit in the cab with the engineer.
Heretic, ha! You're jealous of all that Diesel power!
Modified by atomicalex at 8:44 AM 4-25-2007
Post Title: Re: Doble Steam-Powered, The Greatest External Combustion Car Ever... (Juniper Monkeys)
Posted by: vwlarry at 9:52 AM 4-25-2007
| Quote, originally posted by Taimar2 » |
| Back then all an engineer needed was talent and a tangible product. Not like today where you have to get a PhD in Nuclear Physics so that you can go design tail-lights for a Chevy Malibu. |
thanks for the new sig!
Post Title: Re: Doble Steam-Powered, The Greatest External Combustion Car Ever... (Kafer Wolf)
Posted by: vwlarry at 10:22 AM 4-25-2007
| Quote, originally posted by Kafer Wolf » |
thanks for the new sig! |
Besides the PhD in Nuclear Physics, in order to be qualified to design taillamps one probably would be advised to have a degree in law.
Post Title: Re: Doble Steam-Powered, The Greatest External Combustion Car Ever... (vwlarry)
Posted by: Kafer Wolf at 10:35 AM 4-25-2007
i'm very impressed with steam-powered cars!prior to this, i thought steam engines were too clunky and heavy to be used for automobiles.
now, i want to convert my bug to steam power!
Post Title: Re: Doble Steam-Powered, The Greatest External Combustion Car Ever... (vwlarry)
Posted by: OCGTiGuy at 10:38 AM 4-25-2007
This six-stroke hybrid is something to watch VERY closely. THANX for the link!
Post Title: Re: Doble Steam-Powered, The Greatest External Combustion Car Ever... (vwlarry)
Posted by: Sledge at 11:30 AM 4-25-2007
This six-stroke IC/steam concept is really exciting, and I'd like more information about it.
Post Title: Re: Doble Steam-Powered, The Greatest External Combustion Car Ever... (vwlarry)
Posted by: Sledge at 3:31 PM 4-25-2007
| Quote, originally posted by vwlarry » |
| Are there any chemical engineers here who can give an answer to the alcohol-pertaining-to-emissions question, and how it could be addressed if there would be a problem with it? This six-stroke IC/steam concept is really exciting, and I'd like more information about it. |
You could always combust it during the exhaust cycle. I seem to remember a car (maybe Italian?) that had two sparks plugs per cylinder. One of them was positioned near the exhaust valve and only fired just before it opened. It was specifically for emissions control. The other spark plug was centrally located in the cylinder and did its usual job.
Post Title: Re: Doble Steam-Powered, The Greatest External Combustion Car Ever... (Juniper Monkeys)
Posted by: onebadbug at 7:26 AM 4-26-2007
That's a cool pic, the kids seem to be (and probably are) waving to the engine as opposed to the engineers.
Post Title: Re: Doble Steam-Powered, The Greatest External Combustion Car Ever... (uncleho)
Posted by: boxer03 at 9:14 AM 4-26-2007
| Quote, originally posted by uncleho » |
HOLD ON. WAIT A MINUTE! 16 years old? |
i'm 17 and haven't done anything anwhere close to that...i have some catching up to do
Post Title: Re: Doble Steam-Powered, The Greatest External Combustion Car Ever...
Posted by: vwlarry at 7:18 AM 6-28-2007
Steam Power FAQ
1. Steam cars run on water.
No. - Steam engines are (external combustion, Rankine cycle) heat engines. Water is the working fluid. They convert heat into mechanical work. The internal combustion Otto cycle engine in your car does the same. Both the internal and external combustion engines burn fuel producing heat. The heat of that combustion raises the temperature of a working fluid in a confined space producing an increase in pressure. This pressure exerts force against a piston in the engine. The piston moves turning the crank, turning the wheels moving your car along.
2. Steam cars are likely to explode.
No. - They are less likely to explode as they use less volatile fuels. Modern steam generators for automotive use are constructed in such a way that in case of a rupture they have vary little water at the saturation point, preventing an explosion. The Stanley boiler, a vertical fire tube design unlike modern generators have large amounts of water at saturation temperature, was tested at the factory by forced failure. The failure occurred in the fire tube expansion joints which acted as a safely valve, safely releasing the pressure preventing an explosion. Fred Marriott set a world speed record of 127.66 mph in 1906 in a specially built Stanley. In the following year he crashed while trying to improve on his record. It was estimated that he was traveling at 180 mph at the time of the crash. The boiler did not explode!! And Fred luckily lived to tell the tail.
3. Steam is outdated and old fashioned.
No. - Most of our electricity today comes from steam engines. In atomic power plants, steam is generated by the reactor and drives a steam engine.
4. The internal combustion engine is used today because it is more efficient.
No. - At the start of automotive development the steam engine had the advantage. It was more powerful and easier to operate as it had no transmission or clutch. Then the electric starter was invented. The internal combustion engine was now a ‘get in and go machine’. Steam cars of the time needed a lot of preparation that required about 30 minutes or more before they could be driven. On condensing models lubricating oil mixed with the water which then had to be changed every other day or so. Very messy. Water also would get into the crank case of the engine requiring monthly oil changes. Both types of automobiles at the time where obtaining 8 to 13 miles per gallon of fuel. And the steam car used less expensive fuel oil or kerosene. Today modern steam power generating plants obtain 40% to 60% efficiency. The I.C. automobile engine only gets 25% efficiency.
5. Steam automobiles can use a variety of fuels.
Yes. - Steam is generated in a boiler separate from the engine. The combustion chamber in the boiler can be designed to accommodate any combustible substance. The fuel is burned clean producing no more pollution then a household gas heater. In an automobile the fuel would have to be restricted to one that can be transported and fed automatically. Liquid fuels are the best choice as propane or natural gas are stored under pressure and are vented in case of over pressure creating a danger of explosion. A Stanley, whose pilot had been converted to use propane exploded when vented gas from a spare propane tank carried under the passenger seat ignited killing the driver and injuring the passengers. Possible liquid fuels are kerosene, fuel oil, diesel fuel, and soybean distillate fuel. A properly designed burner system could burn a variety of fuels by using an oxygen sensor in the exhaust to control the proper fuel air mixture.
6. Steam cars of the past outperform I.C. cars.
Yes. - The Doble cars produced between 1923 and 1930 weighing over 4000 lb. could accelerate from 0 to 75 mph in under 5 seconds. and could maintain a top speed of over 95 mph. The early Stanley’s produced so much torque that they lifted the front wheels off the ground when the throttle was opened too quickly.
7. Steam cars are unreliable and require a lot of maintenance.
No. - A Doble E14 produced in 1923 was driven over 600,000 miles requiring only normal maintenance. The Doble cars required no more maintenance then their internal combustion counter parts. Other Doble’s are known to have traveled over 200,000 miles having only routine oil and tire changes.
8. The Doble Steam Motor Company failed because of engineering design problems.
No. - The company failed because of lack of funding. This is a sad story for the steam car company that could have been. The lack of funding was brought about by one Mr. Edwin M. Daugherty, the Commissioner of Corporations in Los Angeles California. Mr. Edwin M. Daugherty refused to issue the permit necessary for the sail of additional stock until 50 cars had been produced and had given satisfactory service in the hands of owners for six months. This was all very peculiar as Mr. Edwin M. Daugherty had received the independent report concerning the excellence of the car under test. Also the Cooperate Securities Act designed to prevent fraud in the sail of stock provided that if the Commissioner (Mr. Edwin M. Daugherty) upon examination of the application finds, that the proposed plan of business of the applicant is not unfair, unjust or inequitable, that it intends to fairly and honestly transact business, that the Commissioner (Mr. Edwin M. Daugherty) shall issue to the applicant a permit . It was reported that Mr. Edwin M. Daugherty repeatedly stated that he did not question the integrity of the officers of the company, and at one time gave them a letter as follows: Pursuant to your inquiry regarding the Doble Steam Motors Corporation, beg to advise that there is nothing in our files or that has come to my attention, personally, which reflects upon the integrity of the promoters of the Doble Steam Car or the Company.
Modified by vwlarry at 7:20 AM 6-28-2007
Post Title: Re: Doble Steam-Powered, The Greatest External Combustion Car Ever... (vwlarry)
Posted by: Sledge at 7:35 AM 6-28-2007
http://www.steamcar.net/lsr.html
Post Title: Re: Doble Steam-Powered, The Greatest External Combustion Car Ever... (Sledge)
Posted by: vwlarry at 7:47 AM 6-28-2007
Great read. I'm about to go and read it again
Post Title: Re: Doble Steam-Powered, The Greatest External Combustion Car Ever... (Mikes72sb)
Posted by: vwlarry at 4:35 AM 11-30-2007
Here's a heads-up for steam power/Doble fans. The new (December) issue of Hemmings Classic Car magazine has a terrific article on a 1925 E-Series Doble roadster, that is owned today by the J.B. Nethercutt Museum in California. EVERY Doble is special (only 41 E-Series cars were ever manufactured from '24 to the company's end in 1932), but this particular car is REALLY special, since it is the Doble that Howard Hughs owned. It is an awesome automobile (the steering wheel on these Dobles was constructed with a rim made from Ebony, with hub and spokes in German silver , just as an example of the extreme quality), and I recommend this magazine to anyone interested enough to be reading this thread. They even have great photos of a companion bare chassis Doble, and go into some detail about the technical and operating aspects of these magnificent automobiles. Two eye-popping factoids...the E-Series Dobles have been timed at 0-75mph in five seconds, and the engine in these cars produces (are you ready?) 1,000 lb/ft of torque from ZERO rpm! This is a 5,000-pound automobile from EIGHTY years ago!!! You gotta read this article to get the full impact.
I found this photo of the subject car of the article, taken at Amelia Island Concours this year. Beautiful:
They also mention Jay Leno's Doble.
It's interesting. It seems, today, that all roads, automotive-speaking, lead to Jay Leno. Whattaguy.
Snapshot of the Luckiest Automobile Enthusiast On Earth in his Doble:
Modified by vwlarry at 4:51 AM 11-30-2007
Post Title: Re: Doble Steam-Powered, The Greatest External Combustion Car Ever... (vwlarry)
Posted by: vwlarry at 9:30 AM 11-30-2007
Post Title: Re: Doble Steam-Powered, The Greatest External Combustion Car Ever... (vwlarry)
Posted by: CBJ at 10:24 AM 11-30-2007
| Quote, originally posted by vwlarry » |
| Are there any chemical engineers here who can give an answer to the alcohol-pertaining-to-emissions question, and how it could be addressed if there would be a problem with it? This six-stroke IC/steam concept is really exciting, and I'd like more information about it. |
A more prevalent problem with would be that the alcohol has a significantly lower boiling temp then water, think about your typical distillation column. You'd probably get mostly alcohol initially then water. The alcohol itself isn't being burned, you'd hope, and as long as initial temperatures on the output were low then the alcohol might condense during exhaust. (the addition of a coil would assure this).
I hope that I'm understanding the engine properly and I'm making a few assumptions.
Post Title:
Posted by: Turbiodiesel! at 11:16 AM 11-30-2007
| Quote, originally posted by Turbiodiesel! » |
| Interesting. Is there any reason why a modern steamer couldn't be built? |
Dont see why not. Heck, I just made a Cleveland steamer about 5 minutes ago.
Post Title: Re: (anarchyx34)
Posted by: Turbiodiesel! at 1:37 PM 11-30-2007
| Quote, originally posted by anarchyx34 » |
Dont see why not. Heck, I just made a Cleveland steamer about 5 minutes ago. |
Oh, dude, that was really unworthy.
Post Title: Re: (Turbiodiesel!)
Posted by: vwlarry at 1:46 PM 11-30-2007
| Quote, originally posted by vwlarry » |
| Two eye-popping factoids...the E-Series Dobles have been timed at 0-75mph in five seconds, and the engine in these cars produces (are you ready?) 1,000 lb/ft of torque from ZERO rpm! This is a 5,000-pound automobile from EIGHTY years ago!!! You gotta read this article to get the full impact. |
It would be much like showing up to a current-day NHRA event with this:
Post Title: Re: Doble Steam-Powered, The Greatest External Combustion Car Ever... (axe)
Posted by: jay:tuck at 2:02 PM 11-30-2007
Stanley Steamer Start Up
Modified by jay:tuck at 1:04 PM 11-30-2007
Post Title: Re: (vwlarry)
Posted by: CBJ at 2:03 PM 11-30-2007
| Quote, originally posted by vwlarry » |
| So then, all interest in the subject has been exhausted, apparently. |
No only the last two or three posts, excluding your own, have lost the plot. Perhaps the powers that be can clean them up (or out) and things will return to normal.
I for one would like to know if there is combustion at all in the expansion chamber if something other then water, the alcohol mentioned above, is used. What sort of temperatures are encountered at the piston? Does friction drive temps up to the point of ignition if volatiles are used?
Post Title: Re: (CBJ)
Posted by: Mcstiff at 2:14 PM 11-30-2007
| Quote, originally posted by jay:tuck » |
| I watched the latest film on JayLenosGarage.com last night. He went through the entire process of starting a Stanley Steamer. It's amazing how lengthy, complex and dangerous it is, but fascinating to see it move and hear it chuff-chuff along.
|
An interesting thing about the Stanley cars compared with Dobles is the Dobles comparative simplicity of operation, not to mention the technological prowess of the Doble versus the Stanleys. Abner Doble, while a student at MIT in 1914, in fact, visited the Stanley Brothers in Massachusetts with his proposal for the flash-boiler/condenser system that he eventually patented for use in his cars. The Stanley brothers, then on top of the hill in steam cars, rejected his ideas, to their detriment. The latter-day Dobles, like these E-series cars, are quick-starting and relatively easy to master (steam-pressure at ready-stage in 90 seconds from cold-start, automatic regulation of boiler pressure, etc etc), while a typical Stanley steam car required much dedication from its owner in terms of both time (long startup time), as well as in investing much time and effort in the mastery of the technical and operative aspects of a Stanley. Stanleys were "old school" steam cars and had much in common with the locomotives of the time. Doble advanced the game substantially, but at a cost.
Post Title: Re: Doble Steam-Powered, The Greatest External Combustion Car Ever... (vwlarry)
Posted by: davedave at 3:08 PM 11-30-2007
p.s. its threads like this that keep TCL in true form
Modified by davedave at 12:10 PM 11-30-2007
Post Title: Re: Doble Steam-Powered, The Greatest External Combustion Car Ever... (vwlarry)
Posted by: Ken Baker at 3:11 PM 11-30-2007
| Quote, originally posted by vwlarry » |
| Every person who really loves automobiles, and I'm talking about the not just the driving of them but the machinery and the "means to the end" part of automobiling, needs to experience the visceral thrill of being in the presence of a steam-powered vehicle of some kind, IMO. They seem almost supernatural in some ways, as if they're filled with a kind of life force, especially steam locomotives and the huge steam tractors I talked about earlier. The way they snort and grunt, and shoot their "breath" while working, coupled with the eerie silence of their power delivery makes them so fascinating for any "motorhead". Everyone has a memory of something that happened to them when they were very, very young; so young that few other events of the time are remembered, so that this event must have been particularly happy/sad/shocking/etc in order to be remembered. I was about five years old, which would make it 1958, and my grandmother's house was directly adjacent to the tracks of the New York Central line that ran north-south through NW Indiana. One day I was sitting on a porchswing by myself (this was out in the country, and a very quiet day), when, in the distance, I remember seeing HUGE clouds of grey smoke rising from a train that was approaching. As it got closer, I remember getting REALLY scared, because this train wasn't like the others that went past all day (diesels were the norm by the late-fifties). The train got closer, and I swear to God, the ground and the house SHOOK like I don't ever recall before or since. This train was composed of nothing but big, dingy grey and tan steam locomotives and their tenders, hooked nose-to-tail, perhaps ten or fifteen of them, and all of them the BIG kind, like maybe 4-8-4 or more. I seem to remember that they were all under power and driving together, and the NOISE and the SMOKE were overwhelming, and REALLY frightening for a five-year-old boy who had never before seen anything like this. It scared the hell out of me! My dad explained to me several years later that those locomotives were on their way to be scrapped at the steel mills up north in Indiana Harbor (he was a steelworker there at the time). Today, I think of that moment often, and it makes me almost cry in sadness for the thought of witnessing the literal swansong of the great American steam locomotive. It was sort of like seeing big, majestic elephants marching to their doom. It still makes me feel sad.
|
I've been a fan of steam locomotives my whole life...
Check out this video taken earlier this year in Vancouver, WA...turn up the sound if you can!
http://youtube.com/watch?v=wkuBXVPjBvg
Modified by Ken Baker at 12:13 PM 11-30-2007
Post Title: Re: Doble Steam-Powered, The Greatest External Combustion Car Ever... (Ken Baker)
Posted by: vwlarry at 7:31 AM 12-1-2007
THANK YOU for the link. Seeing those big steamers "highballing" past that car was absolutely awesome. I never thought anyone would be interested in steam power in the Lounge, and this thread would go nowhere. Instead, it's turned into one of my faves. 
I have to take a moment to thank my late dad for "priming the pump" of my love of steam-powered machines. He was a farmer for many years before moving to the city, and when he was growing up in the thirties and forties, he worked every summer around steam-powered tractors and threshing machines at harvest time. In later years, he invited me to go with him to various steam-power festivals in Indiana and Illinois (they're very popular and I recommend them to anyone here). At these festivals, which are nothing more than a joyful celebration of American work-ethic and technical/inventive genius via steam-powered farm machinery, they have "live" demonstrations of the huge and powerful steam tractors, which, with HUGE leather belts driving equally HUGE pulleys, power the threshers which separate grain from chaff, etc., along with many other fascinating and surprising demonstrations of "old school" technology from decades ago. I still attend a local festival here in Delaware in the summer. My dad is gone now, but he taught me lots of pretty cool stuff, including a love and respect for the people and machines of the past.
A fairly typical steam tractor of long ago. Seeing a picture of one is not enough; you must SEE and HEAR and SMELL these things under power. They're amazing.
Modified by vwlarry at 7:34 AM 12-1-2007
Post Title: Re: Doble Steam-Powered, The Greatest External Combustion Car Ever... (vwlarry)
Posted by: impact at 8:37 AM 12-1-2007
http://www.crabfu.com/steamtoys/
(be sure to check the videos for each model, especially the R/C Steam LocoCentipede video)
Post Title: Re: Doble Steam-Powered, The Greatest External Combustion Car Ever... (vwlarry)
Posted by: Ken Baker at 8:54 AM 12-1-2007
It's no wonder that generations and generations of young boys grew up wanting to be locomotive engineers...
There is an antique tractor threshing bee every summer not far from me. It really is quite an experience to watch those tractors at work!
Post Title: Re: Doble Steam-Powered, The Greatest External Combustion Car Ever... (impact)
Posted by: vwlarry at 9:01 AM 12-1-2007
He really enjoyed that thing, and so did I. My son, when he was small, would always go for that thing immediately after we would arrive and Grandpa's house for a visit. "Make it go!" he'd say. I hope I've passed some of that passion for steam on to my boy.
Post Title: Re: Doble Steam-Powered, The Greatest External Combustion Car Ever... (Ken Baker)
Posted by: IJM at 9:36 AM 12-1-2007
| Quote, originally posted by Ken Baker » |
I've been a fan of steam locomotives my whole life... Check out this video taken earlier this year in Vancouver, WA...turn up the sound if you can! |
That video gave me serious goosebumps. That whistle!
Post Title: Re: Doble Steam-Powered, The Greatest External Combustion Car Ever... (vwlarry)
Posted by: IJM at 9:43 AM 12-1-2007
| Quote, originally posted by vwlarry » |
| I never thought anyone would be interested in steam power in the Lounge, and this thread would go nowhere. Instead, it's turned into one of my faves. |
Alright, who's in for starting a Steam Lounge? 
That reminds me of something. The other day, I was explaining to a friend how the term "balls out" was in no way a lewd reference. He just looked at me funny. Hey, not everyone is a steam junkie.
Post Title: Re: Doble Steam-Powered, The Greatest External Combustion Car Ever... (vwlarry)
Posted by: GoFaster at 5:13 PM 12-1-2007
| Quote, originally posted by vwlarry » |
| Here is an interesting list of steam-power FAQs (including some neat Doble tidbits) I found that was worth posting for anyone interested in this type of engine. If you weren't interested, you wouldn't be reading this, eh? |
rest of it taken out of the "quote" to make it easier to answer.
Steam Power FAQ
1. Steam cars run on water.
No. - Steam engines are (external combustion, Rankine cycle) heat engines. Water is the working fluid. They convert heat into mechanical work. The internal combustion Otto cycle engine in your car does the same. Both the internal and external combustion engines burn fuel producing heat. The heat of that combustion raises the temperature of a working fluid in a confined space producing an increase in pressure. This pressure exerts force against a piston in the engine. The piston moves turning the crank, turning the wheels moving your car along.
Counterpoint: No argument here ... that's the way they work.
2. Steam cars are likely to explode.
No. - They are less likely to explode as they use less volatile fuels. Modern steam generators for automotive use are constructed in such a way that in case of a rupture they have vary little water at the saturation point, preventing an explosion. The Stanley boiler, a vertical fire tube design unlike modern generators have large amounts of water at saturation temperature, was tested at the factory by forced failure. The failure occurred in the fire tube expansion joints which acted as a safely valve, safely releasing the pressure preventing an explosion. Fred Marriott set a world speed record of 127.66 mph in 1906 in a specially built Stanley. In the following year he crashed while trying to improve on his record. It was estimated that he was traveling at 180 mph at the time of the crash. The boiler did not explode!! And Fred luckily lived to tell the tail.
Counterpoint: Flash boilers indeed have much less explosion risk than fire-tube boilers, and they heat up much faster - although one questions in a society seemingly unwilling to put up with the Rudolf Diesel Memorial moment of silence (glow plug delay) of a few seconds, whether the minute before starting a steam engine would be accepted. And, the common fuels for diesel engines share the advantage of being less volatile than gasoline (or natural gas or propane or hydrogen, for that matter).
3. Steam is outdated and old fashioned.
No. - Most of our electricity today comes from steam engines. In atomic power plants, steam is generated by the reactor and drives a steam engine.
Counterpoint: Correct, but there is little in common between a utility-power-generation steam engine which uses several intermediate stages of reheat, boiler feedwater pre-heat, etc in order to eke out as much efficiency as possible, and the simple-cycle engines seen in automotive applications.
4. The internal combustion engine is used today because it is more efficient.
No. - At the start of automotive development the steam engine had the advantage. It was more powerful and easier to operate as it had no transmission or clutch. Then the electric starter was invented. The internal combustion engine was now a ‘get in and go machine’. Steam cars of the time needed a lot of preparation that required about 30 minutes or more before they could be driven. On condensing models lubricating oil mixed with the water which then had to be changed every other day or so. Very messy. Water also would get into the crank case of the engine requiring monthly oil changes. Both types of automobiles at the time where obtaining 8 to 13 miles per gallon of fuel. And the steam car used less expensive fuel oil or kerosene. Today modern steam power generating plants obtain 40% to 60% efficiency. The I.C. automobile engine only gets 25% efficiency.
Counterpoint: Achieving decent efficiency in a steam engine requires multiple stages of expansion and re-heat, and heat recovery from the boiler exhaust, which requires large heat exchangers that are not practical in an automotive application. The efficiency of the simple Rankine cycle (feedpump ... boiler ... expander ... condenser ... etc.) can be readily calculated from the steam tables in a thermodynamics textbook. For temperatures and pressures that can practically be achieved in the real world, and accounting for heat losses at the boiler exhaust and realistic hot-side and cold-side temperatures and realistic expander efficiency ... the efficiency of the Rankine cycle is poor compared to that of even a decent gasoline engine, and abysmal compared to a modern diesel engine. Since this low efficiency is pretty much dictated by the physics of the process, there is little hope in improving it by much. 8 to 13 mpg for a normal automobile might have been acceptable in the 1920's, but it isn't today.
5. Steam automobiles can use a variety of fuels.
Yes. - Steam is generated in a boiler separate from the engine. The combustion chamber in the boiler can be designed to accommodate any combustible substance. The fuel is burned clean producing no more pollution then a household gas heater. In an automobile the fuel would have to be restricted to one that can be transported and fed automatically. Liquid fuels are the best choice as propane or natural gas are stored under pressure and are vented in case of over pressure creating a danger of explosion. A Stanley, whose pilot had been converted to use propane exploded when vented gas from a spare propane tank carried under the passenger seat ignited killing the driver and injuring the passengers. Possible liquid fuels are kerosene, fuel oil, diesel fuel, and soybean distillate fuel. A properly designed burner system could burn a variety of fuels by using an oxygen sensor in the exhaust to control the proper fuel air mixture.
Counterpoint: I don't argue the technical discussion (it's true), but in this world where one can readily obtain fuels of sufficient octane rating for a gasoline engine or sufficient cetane rating for a diesel engine, one questions what the real advantage is. This mattered in the 1900's in the days before a filling station on every corner, where you might have had to fill the vehicle with lamp fuel or kerosene or heating oil or whatever you could get your hands on.
6. Steam cars of the past outperform I.C. cars.
Yes. - The Doble cars produced between 1923 and 1930 weighing over 4000 lb. could accelerate from 0 to 75 mph in under 5 seconds. and could maintain a top speed of over 95 mph. The early Stanley’s produced so much torque that they lifted the front wheels off the ground when the throttle was opened too quickly.
Counterpoint: I would only add "... of the past" to the end of the statement, because comparable performance is certainly available today. Even at that time, the top-level gasoline fueled vehicles (duesenburg etc) had very good performance, comparable to that quoted.
7. Steam cars are unreliable and require a lot of maintenance.
No. - A Doble E14 produced in 1923 was driven over 600,000 miles requiring only normal maintenance. The Doble cars required no more maintenance then their internal combustion counter parts. Other Doble’s are known to have traveled over 200,000 miles having only routine oil and tire changes.
Counterpoint: No argument here.
8. The Doble Steam Motor Company failed because of engineering design problems.
No. - The company failed because of lack of funding. This is a sad story for the steam car company that could have been. The lack of funding was brought about by one Mr. Edwin M. Daugherty, the Commissioner of Corporations in Los Angeles California. Mr. Edwin M. Daugherty refused to issue the permit necessary for the sail of additional stock until 50 cars had been produced and had given satisfactory service in the hands of owners for six months. This was all very peculiar as Mr. Edwin M. Daugherty had received the independent report concerning the excellence of the car under test. Also the Cooperate Securities Act designed to prevent fraud in the sail of stock provided that if the Commissioner (Mr. Edwin M. Daugherty) upon examination of the application finds, that the proposed plan of business of the applicant is not unfair, unjust or inequitable, that it intends to fairly and honestly transact business, that the Commissioner (Mr. Edwin M. Daugherty) shall issue to the applicant a permit . It was reported that Mr. Edwin M. Daugherty repeatedly stated that he did not question the integrity of the officers of the company, and at one time gave them a letter as follows: Pursuant to your inquiry regarding the Doble Steam Motors Corporation, beg to advise that there is nothing in our files or that has come to my attention, personally, which reflects upon the integrity of the promoters of the Doble Steam Car or the Company.
Counterpoint: none, the history and fate of the company is what it is.
Post Title: Re: Doble Steam-Powered, The Greatest External Combustion Car Ever... (GoFaster)
Posted by: vwlarry at 8:07 PM 12-1-2007
Mr. Doble and his fabulous automobiles deserve no less.
Post Title: Re: Doble Steam-Powered, The Greatest External Combustion Car Ever... (vwlarry)
Posted by: vwlarry at 11:37 AM 12-2-2007
). But I digress (I'm good at that.). Getting back to steam power, I found out something that I never would have thought existed; namely, that someone had actually built and flown steam-powered aircraft. Moreover, that someone associated with our old friend Abner Doble was involved in the aircraft's design and engineering. How 'bout 'dat, eh? Here is a VERY interesting link (I'm speaking to the limited-yet-distinguished audience reading this thread, remember ) that chronicles the aircraft's story. It's worth a read.
http://wow-really.blogspot.com....html
Modified by vwlarry at 12:01 PM 12-2-2007
Post Title: Re: Doble Steam-Powered, The Greatest External Combustion Car Ever... (vwlarry)
Posted by: Live-Wire at 10:22 AM 12-3-2007
... He traveled almost exclusively by train (since it was free for him) until he died - and much preferred it to air or car (he never got a license). He said the old steam trains were just so much better - better sounds, better service (back in THE DAY they actually had stellar service on trains)...etc. My father then gave me more imagery to think about as a child... Told me about the steam trains in Germany and Switzerland - how they would connect 4, 5, or even 6 or more locomotives together and pull thru the Alps... Steam and smoke billowing - and geared wheels on a special track to help them maintain traction on treacherous Alpine inclines - He said he never saw a sight like an Alpine freight train blasting thru a pass freshly covered by an Avalanche of snow with a massive plow on the front to push through all the powder with ease... Crossing the Alps in a Porsche 356 trying to make record time as per usual (him and a friend always alternated driving on these trips thru the Alps to see who would be faster from Switzerland to Germany), and stopping to watch a locomotive smash thru a snowy pass, engines running "balls out"... Damn sounds like a car and steam enthusiasts dream all in one daySome info on "Rack-Rails"
http://reference.info.com/refe...ilway
Post Title: Re: Doble Steam-Powered, The Greatest External Combustion Car Ever... (Live-Wire)
Posted by: vwlarry at 7:17 AM 12-4-2007
Two times I've ridden on cog-rail trains; once on the very steep tracks at Royal Gorge in Colorado, and the other time travelling up the Zugspitz in Bavaria to see Hitler's "Eagle's Nest", or the remains thereof. The locomotives were electric though in each case. 'Shame. A diagram of the BMW Turbosteamer system:
Post Title: Re: Doble Steam-Powered, The Greatest External Combustion Car Ever... (vwlarry)
Posted by: Swallow Doretti at 2:43 PM 12-5-2007
| Quote, originally posted by vwlarry » |
| They also mention Jay Leno's Doble. It's interesting. It seems, today, that all roads, automotive-speaking, lead to Jay Leno. Whattaguy. Snapshot of the Luckiest Automobile Enthusiast On Earth in his Doble:
|
Jay Leno brought out his Doble this past weekend to the opening of our Los Angeles office:
Post Title: Re: Doble Steam-Powered, The Greatest External Combustion Car Ever... (vwlarry)
Posted by: GoFaster at 3:28 PM 12-5-2007
| Quote, originally posted by vwlarry » |
| The idea of a thread like this one though, is to celebrate what went before us, especially when it involves people of sheer genius and creativity, like Abner Doble. In my opinion, he deserves the same elevation in stature as an automotive "engineering artiste" as say, Ettore Bugatti or Ferdinand Porsche, etc. The fact that he and his creations are so forgotten today is a SIN, IMO, and little conversations like this one do some small justice to his memory, if only because they keep it alive. Mr. Doble and his fabulous automobiles deserve no less. |
Absolutely agree. My counterpoint to that FAQ was only to address the technical matters from today's engineering viewpoint. In no way does that take away from the accomplishments of the past.
P.S. this is a great thread, awesome pictures.
Post Title: Re: Doble Steam-Powered, The Greatest External Combustion Car Ever... (Swallow Doretti)
Posted by: vwlarry at 3:35 PM 12-5-2007
The shot of the instrument panel is excellent. In case anyone is wondering, the large ebony ring mounted above and within the steering wheel is the car's throttle control. There was no accelerator pedal on the E-series Dobles. You turned the ring to open the throttle or close it. I've read that in Leno's car, he had it modified to have a conventional foot-operated accelerator/throttle pedal, since the ring on the steering wheel can apparently get VERY confusing when cornering and modulating speed at the same time.
I'll bet when you poked your head inside to make that shot, the aroma inside that ancient Doble was very pleasant. There's something about wool upholstery, varnished woodwork, an other natural materials in those old cars that just makes them smell wonderful.
PS: Regarding Leno driving his Doble around Los Angeles, it is perfectly fitting, in that the Doble factory was located in the LA vicinity, I believe, in a town called Emeryville.
Modified by vwlarry at 3:41 PM 12-5-2007
Post Title: Re: Doble Steam-Powered, The Greatest External Combustion Car Ever... (vwlarry)
Posted by: Swallow Doretti at 3:41 PM 12-5-2007
Leno's supposedly a HUGE fan of steam power, BTW--besides the Doble, he also has a few Stanley Steamers.
And you're absolutely right about the smell of these old cars--regardless of make, any vehicle with a that mix of wool, metal and wood has an enticing aroma to it that new cars, with all their plasticity, can't replicate.
Post Title: Re: Doble Steam-Powered, The Greatest External Combustion Car Ever... (vwlarry)
Posted by: sciroccohal at 3:50 PM 12-5-2007
From a performance standpoint and modern history (say 50 years)
THE GREATEST EXTERNAL COMBUSTION CAR EVER....WAS
THE 1969 STP INDIANAPOLIS TURBINE CAR...turbines are external combustion too!
2nd place 1964 Chrysler TURBINE....runs on any combustible liquid.
Post Title: Re: Doble Steam-Powered, The Greatest External Combustion Car Ever... (sciroccohal)
Posted by: vwlarry at 4:00 PM 12-5-2007
Modified by vwlarry at 4:05 PM 12-5-2007
Post Title: Re: Doble Steam-Powered, The Greatest External Combustion Car Ever... (vwlarry)
Posted by: DC Josh at 5:14 PM 12-5-2007
| Quote, originally posted by Steam Car » |
| From 1996, a R&D subsidiary of the Volkswagen group called Enginion AG was developing a system called ZEE (Zero Emissions Engine). It produced steam almost instantly without an open flame, and took 30 seconds to reach maximum power from a cold start. Their third prototype, EZEE03, was a three-cylinder unit meant to fit in a Skoda Fabia automobile. The EZEE03 was described as having a "two-stroke" (i.e. single-acting) engine of 1000 cc (164 cubic inches) displacement, producing up to 220 hp (500 N m / 369 ft·lbf)[9]. Exhaust emissions were said to be far below the SULEV standard. It had an "oilless" engine with ceramic cylinder linings using steam instead of oil as a lubricant. However, Enginion found that the market was not ready for steam cars, so they opted instead to develop the "Steamcell" power generator/heating system based on similar technology.[10][11] |
I blame it on the oil companies for not progressing on this form of combustion.
Post Title: Re: Doble Steam-Powered, The Greatest External Combustion Car Ever... (volkswagen vagen)
Posted by: DC Josh at 10:27 PM 12-5-2007
). I wish I could put sound to the picture so everyone could appreciate the primitive magnificence of these steam tractors. They're amazing to witness. It's like they're alive.
Post Title: Re: Doble Steam-Powered, The Greatest External Combustion Car Ever... (vwlarry)
Posted by: vwlarry at 12:57 PM 12-16-2007
[IMG]
[/IMG]
[IMG]
[/IMG]
Post Title: Re: Doble Steam-Powered, The Greatest External Combustion Car Ever... (Sledge)
Posted by: Spa_driver at 2:03 PM 12-16-2007
| Quote, originally posted by Sledge » |
They go chitty chitty bang bang |
And you can hear them coming from a mile away!
Post Title: Re: Doble Steam-Powered, The Greatest External Combustion Car Ever
Posted by: vwlarry at 1:02 PM 12-18-2007
| Quote, originally posted by vwlarry » |
| I found a very interesting article (long and detailed) about Dobles, and the maroon 1924 H-series roadster pictured in this thread is actually featured with a full roadtest. Details to come (for the 5 people in the Car Lounge who are interested)... |
| Quote, originally posted by vwlarry » |
| Details to come (for the 5 people in the Car Lounge who are interested)... |
| Quote, originally posted by vwlarry » |
PS: Regarding Leno driving his Doble around Los Angeles, it is perfectly fitting, in that the Doble factory was located in the LA vicinity, I believe, in a town called Emeryville. Modified by vwlarry at 3:41 PM 12-5-2007 |
I can't believe I'm doing this but a bit of a correction, Larry. Emeryville is in the Bay Area. Doble was born and raised in the San Francisco area.
"In 1914 Mr. Doble drove one of his cars to Detroit where he found financial backing and produced the Doble Detroit car. The Doble Detroit was the first Doble to use a forced draft burner. It also used two-cylinder double acting uniflow engine of Doble's design. Doble had obtained capital to get a company going making steam cars but World War I was on and the government refused to give the Doble company an allotment of steel. The project thus failed and Doble returned to California, later in 1920 establishing with his brothers the Doble Steam Motor factory in Emeryville."
Post Title: Re: Doble Steam-Powered, The Greatest External Combustion Car Ever... (phatsac)
Posted by: vwlarry at 2:22 PM 12-20-2007
I'm fortunate in having seen not only Stanley Steamers, but a Locomobile. Cool beans.
For all you steam junkies, my son and others like him are still being turned on to steam at a local tourist spot. The Essex (CT) Steam Train aka Valle Railway Museum. Offers Steam train and (diesel) riverboat trips.
If you're interested, they do a Christmas Train that has Santa and helpers distribute a stuffed toy to the children as the steam train travels a 10+ mile private line that borders the Connecticut river.
My son loves to sit in the last car on the train, because since the train can't turn, the Locomotive is transferred on a parallel track to the back of the train. We look out the back window of the car to see the massive front plate and light of the engine. Watching the engine rock as we reverse back to the station is unlike anything modern.
That steam whistle is incredibly loud, when approaching crossings!
Linky: http://www.essexsteamtrain.com/santa.html
Post Title: Re: Doble Steam-Powered, The Greatest External Combustion Car Ever... (newbiedubber)
Posted by: Juniper Monkeys at 4:15 PM 2-4-2008
http://www.jaylenosgarage.com
Post Title: Re: Doble Steam-Powered, The Greatest External Combustion Car Ever
Posted by: vwlarry at 8:59 PM 4-1-2008
[img]
[/img]
[img]
[/img]
[img]
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[img]
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Post Title: Re: Doble Steam-Powered, The Greatest External Combustion Car Ever (vwlarry)
Posted by: VWturbonium at 9:55 PM 4-1-2008
My personal favorite experience with Steam Trains is the Cass Scenic Railway in West Virginia.
The sound of the whistle echoing through the mountains gave me chills.
Post Title: Re: Doble Steam-Powered, The Greatest External Combustion Car Ever... (scottracer)
Posted by: seoulstice at 10:18 PM 4-1-2008
http://www.nps.gov/stea
Post Title: Re: Doble Steam-Powered, The Greatest External Combustion Car Ever... (seoulstice)
Posted by: FrozenSun at 11:14 PM 4-1-2008
I remember reading it a while ago, but it is one of the best threads i read on any forum
Unfortunately i never saw a live steam powered locomotive, but i see the "ruins" (Angus) where they were build and documentary on that and it is IMPRESSIVE
This thread makes up for all the useless threads i read on TCL
Modified by FrozenSun at 8:15 PM 4-1-2008
Post Title: Re: Doble Steam-Powered, The Greatest External Combustion Car Ever... (FrozenSun)
Posted by: vwlarry at 10:15 AM 4-2-2008
| Quote, originally posted by vwlarry » |
| For people who really love machines...I mean REALLY love machinery and what makes it tick, there is nothing to equal steam power, IMO. I think that may be why a fellow like Jay Leno, who is known to have a passion for steam, devotes so much of his attentions to it. It's like a kind of primeval thing in some ways. You can actually SEE the power being produced with steam engines; you can feel it in a way that can't be duplicated with IC power. I love it. |
amen! (see sig)
Post Title: Re: Doble Steam-Powered, The Greatest External Combustion Car Ever... (FrozenSun)
Posted by: vwlarry at 3:53 PM 4-2-2008
That car has more history and intrigue in its ancient bones than the damned Egyptian Pyramids!
Post Title: Re: Doble Steam-Powered, The Greatest External Combustion Car Ever... (vwlarry)
Posted by: vwlarry at 12:16 PM 4-3-2008
Lonesome.
Post Title: Re: Doble Steam-Powered, The Greatest External Combustion Car Ever... (vwlarry)
Posted by: Ken Baker at 2:24 PM 4-3-2008
| Quote, originally posted by vwlarry » |
| I guess all the steam enthusiasts have left town. I feel kinda like Gary Cooper in "High Noon". Lonesome. |
Not all of us have left town!
Incidentally, I have a friend that is taking a Steam Engineering and Operating Safety class this weekend at Roots of Motive Power in northern California... http://rootsofmotivepower.com/default.html
Post Title: Re: Doble Steam-Powered, The Greatest External Combustion Car Ever... (Ken Baker)
Posted by: renegadeofpunk03 at 3:29 PM 4-3-2008
we could have built it, but fundage was an issue while we were in school.
yes, i understand that it would be cumbersome and impractical, that was kind of the point
Post Title: Re: Doble Steam-Powered, The Greatest External Combustion Car Ever... (Ken Baker)
Posted by: Northern RD at 3:56 PM 4-3-2008
http://www.geocities.com/wernervana/Learxyzp.html
apologies for the lack of translation,..
Post Title: Re: Doble Steam-Powered, The Greatest External Combustion Car Ever...
Posted by: vwlarry at 6:42 PM 4-5-2008
As far as Loco's, I've been fortunate enough to have these run within a few miles of my house in the past 5 years, getting my own shots:
Dave.
Post Title: Re: Doble Steam-Powered, The Greatest External Combustion Car Ever... (speedn16v)
Posted by: vwlarry at 10:52 AM 4-6-2008
) for the photos to load, expecting to see some steam-powered Locomobile automobiles! Locomobile, a nearly forgotten marque today, built steam automobiles from 1899 until about 1905 or so, and then switched over to gasoline-engined machines until they went belly-up in 1929. Locomobile, btw, built some of the most respected heavyweight, luxurious, and beautifully crafted cars of their time, with Hollywood celebrities among their frequent clientele. They were also, in their later gasoline years, notable race-winners too, and famed for their speed. Here is what I thought you were talking about for a moment, at least. It's a 1900 Locomobile steamer, all spindly and "stone-age", but still chugging away a hundred years later. How many of today's cars will still be running in 2108, I wonder?
Post Title: Re: Doble Steam-Powered, The Greatest External Combustion Car Ever... (vwlarry)
Posted by: uv23 at 12:10 PM 4-6-2008
Ahem! Now back to your regularly scheduled automotive thread...
Modified by uv23 at 10:12 AM 4-6-2008
Post Title: Re: Doble Steam-Powered, The Greatest External Combustion Car Ever... (uv23)
Posted by: vwlarry at 12:14 PM 4-6-2008
| Quote, originally posted by vwlarry » |
| Just a little bump for the halibut. |
Sounds like a red herring to me
| Quote, originally posted by vwlarry » |
|
Pretty cool
Modified by Sledge at 12:41 PM 4-6-2008
Post Title: Re: Doble Steam-Powered, The Greatest External Combustion Car Ever... (Sledge)
Posted by: vwlarry at 12:46 PM 4-6-2008
| Quote, originally posted by Sledge » |
Sounds like a red herring to me |
I knew I could count on you to spot me fishing for replies.
Post Title: Re: Doble Steam-Powered, The Greatest External Combustion Car Ever... (vwlarry)
Posted by: IJM at 1:01 PM 4-6-2008
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-F78Jzcqtw
Post Title: Re: Doble Steam-Powered, The Greatest External Combustion Car Ever... (IJM)
Posted by: IJM at 1:04 PM 4-6-2008
btw I didnt see anybody post this...
Jay Leno and his doble http://www.jaylenosgarage.com/...13453
Post Title: Re: Doble Steam-Powered, The Greatest External Combustion Car Ever... (IJM)
Posted by: Ken Baker at 2:45 PM 4-6-2008
| Quote, originally posted by IJM » |
| Here's another: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WTHRT9Rqww0 |
Here is one of my favorites...
http://youtube.com/watch?v=wkuBXVPjBvg
Post Title: Re: Doble Steam-Powered, The Greatest External Combustion Car Ever... (Ken Baker)
Posted by: IJM at 2:49 PM 4-6-2008
| Quote, originally posted by Ken Baker » |
|
Ah. I'd forgotten about that one! That whistle.
Post Title: Re: Doble Steam-Powered, The Greatest External Combustion Car Ever... (IJM)
Posted by: Ken Baker at 2:53 PM 4-6-2008
The coalmine where these shots were taken is scheduled to be closed in 2010, and with it one of the last bastions of steam in the world will disappear.
Winter in China 3: Zhalai Nuer, day 2, lineside (50 p.) http://www.railroadforums.com/...22671
Winter in China 4: Zhalai Nuer, day 2, the workshop (50 p.) http://www.railroadforums.com/...22735
Winter in China 7: Nanpiao, lineside (40 p.) http://www.railroadforums.com/...22932
Modified by Ken Baker at 11:59 AM 4-6-2008
Post Title: Re: Doble Steam-Powered, The Greatest External Combustion Car Ever... (scottracer)
Posted by: mujjuman at 2:23 PM 4-13-2008
Post Title: Re: Doble Steam-Powered, The Greatest External Combustion Car Ever... (vwlarry)
Posted by: Juniper Monkeys at 9:22 PM 5-1-2008
| Quote, originally posted by vwlarry » |
| Does anyone know if there are any online movies of Jay Leno demonstrating how to drive his Doble? |
Prepare to jump out of your chair Although, one notes that it's already been linked to further up the page
He did a full segment on it!
Modified by Juniper Monkeys at 9:43 PM 5-1-2008
Post Title: Re: Doble Steam-Powered, The Greatest External Combustion Car Ever... (Juniper Monkeys)
Posted by: atomicalex at 9:48 PM 5-1-2008
MOAR!!!!!!!!!!!!
Post Title: Re: Doble Steam-Powered, The Greatest External Combustion Car Ever... (Juniper Monkeys)
Posted by: vwlarry at 12:08 PM 6-6-2008
WOW.
I'm wiping tears from my eyes after that.
God bless Jay Leno; that's all I can say. I really mean it when I say that I feel like he and I are kindred spirits; the one thing that differentiates us is his ability to live the dream and not just think about it.
I'd never heard Leno discuss automobiles in that manner before; usually it's the "sound bite" kind of thing that cannot fully expose his real depth of knowledge and insight. I've wondered for years how he would really sound when given the time to fully express himself. I wasn't disappointed. He may very well be the best thing that has ever happened to the collector/vintage automobile movement. The love of automobiles is in his soul and being; you can feel it, and he is single-handedly helping to popularize and perpetuate that love of the automobiles of the past so that future generations will not forget and neglect them. Honest to God I'd give anything just to meet him and thank him for what he does. Maybe this sounds like I'm slobbering all over the guy to some, but I'm not. This man deserves to be honored.
Post Title: Re: Doble Steam-Powered, The Greatest External Combustion Car Ever... (vwlarry)
Posted by: vwlarry at 12:24 PM 6-6-2008
The 1953 Paxton Phoenix retractable-hardtop convertible:
Here is the link to the article: http://auto.howstuffworks.com/...e.htm
The intriguging part, to me anyway, is the way that this car linked the ideas of two great automotive geniuses, Ferdinand Porsche and Abner Doble, in an unexpected way, and then included the ideas of one of the great design geniuses, Brooks Stevens, who designed this car for Paxton. It's kind of like "six degrees of separation" in the form of one automobile.
Post Title: Re: Doble Steam-Powered, The Greatest External Combustion Car Ever... (vwlarry)
Posted by: vwlarry at 11:58 AM 6-7-2008
Post Title: Re: Doble Steam-Powered, The Greatest External Combustion Car Ever... (vwlarry)
Posted by: Juniper Monkeys at 12:49 PM 6-7-2008
| Quote, originally posted by vwlarry » |
| Does anyone have any information on this car; the DeDietrich-Schwander, a German steam prototype that was developed using Doble technology? Apparently the car was destroyed during WWII. I'm curious about European involvement in steam automobile development, and how much participation there was beside this. |
I managed to find a couple things. Unfortunately, only one snippet is in English. There's still a couple details to be gleaned, like it's Bugatti Type 46 chassis, and a few new pictures
I collected them and put them here: http://www.angel.org/will/index.html (since they were in the middle of a big block of unrelated articles spanning about 100 pages, and there was no other way to link to them)
And here's a Google translation of the French article, and the German article.
Modified by Juniper Monkeys at 9:55 AM 6-7-2008
Post Title:
Posted by: dasfonzie at 12:54 PM 6-7-2008
It's interesting how at least these two short articles barely mention Doble, and offer no information as to Abner Doble's influence on the European engineers. There are probably other, more scholarly works on this history that paint a more complete picture of the worldwide development of steamcar technology, and which fully credit Mr. Doble for his keystone role in it. They're a lot of fun, filled with friendly (no "attitude") people, and a nice bit of respite from today's high-tech tornado we all live in. Just google "threshermen" and find one close to you. There might even be a Stanley Steamer at the show near you!
Modified by vwlarry at 9:30 AM 6-8-2008
Post Title: Re: Doble Steam-Powered, The Greatest External Combustion Car Ever... (vwlarry)
Posted by: Kafer Wolf at 7:09 AM 7-9-2008
was wondering if any automaker is studying or developing a modern automobile steam engine.
i mean, if they could do this waaaayyy back in the day, how hard would it be with today's technology?
Post Title: Re: Doble Steam-Powered, The Greatest External Combustion Car Ever... (Kafer Wolf)
Posted by: nisei at 1:18 PM 7-9-2008
Post Title: Re: Doble Steam-Powered, The Greatest External Combustion Car Ever... (nisei)
Posted by: Entwerfer des Audis at 10:46 PM 8-17-2008
In theory it could work... react hydrogen and oxygen in the cell, electricity generated and water vapour (at high temperature) released, then use the vapour and excess heat from the fuel cell (VW's high temperature fuel cell that's smaller, lighter, cheaper, and less complex would work well for this application) to build pressure and drive a steam generator, which would generate more electricity, combine that with the fuel cell's electricity and you've got extra power.
The question is whether it would act like a turbo on an ICE or if it would just complicate the design with negligible increase in efficiency.
Post Title: Re: Doble Steam-Powered, The Greatest External Combustion Car Ever... (Entwerfer des Audis)
Posted by: chickenium at 11:20 PM 8-17-2008
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPEv_M7p4fA
Post Title: Re: Doble Steam-Powered, The Greatest External Combustion Car Ever... (vwlarry)
Posted by: vwlarry at 11:14 AM 8-20-2008
http://www.steamcar.net/dobles.html
Post Title: Re: Doble Steam-Powered, The Greatest External Combustion Car Ever... (vwlarry)
Posted by: vwlarry at 11:22 AM 8-20-2008
http://www.steamcar.net/movies/new-year-08.wmv
Post Title: Re: Doble Steam-Powered, The Greatest External Combustion Car Ever... (vwlarry)
Posted by: eddiek at 11:55 AM 8-20-2008
I can’t find that article but it was in the automotive design and production magazine.
Post Title: Re: Doble Steam-Powered, The Greatest External Combustion Car Ever... (eddiek)
Posted by: Sledge at 11:59 AM 8-20-2008
| Quote, originally posted by eddiek » |
| I read an article about 6 months ago where a guy is modifying a regular combustion motor alternate between regular gas and steam. The first 4 strokes will run as a regular gas engine but then inject water in the 5’th stock, the heat from the first four strokes would turn the water mist into steam creating pressure. The sixth stroke will compress the steam as the heat is creating it. The expending steam will then add to the power stock and then exhaust. It’s estimated that the engine would run 25 percent more efficient. You’re now using all that unused heat energy that a regular combustion engine uses. I can’t find that article but it was in the automotive design and production magazine. |
See page 2 of this thread about 2/3rd of the way down.
Post Title: Re: Doble Steam-Powered, The Greatest External Combustion Car Ever... (Sledge)
Posted by: eddiek at 12:21 PM 8-20-2008
| Quote, originally posted by Sledge » |
See page 2 of this thread about 2/3rd of the way down. |
Thanks I missed that. It's that Kind of innovation that’s going to make a difference.
Post Title:
Posted by: bhtooefr at 3:02 PM 8-20-2008
So, if you're a steam-nut (and if you are reading this thread I presume you're interested at least a little bit ), check this program out! The History Channel repeats everything on the weekends, so when I find out when it will be reshown this weekend I'll update. Also, there is a nice website about the show and its host. Go to: http://www.history.com/minisites/extreme-trains
Post Title: Re: Re: (vwlarry)
Posted by: Entwerfer des Audis at 7:35 PM 12-10-2008
| Quote, originally posted by vwlarry » |
| Here is a steam-powered train lover's heads-up for great teevee viewing. On Tuesday evenings at 10pm EST, on the History Channel, a new show called "Extreme Trains" hosted by a guy named Matt Brown, is showing some pretty good stuff. Last evening Brown travelled across country in a gorgeous Union Pacific locomotive from the forties; one of the last built in fact. He showed much technical and nuts-and-bolts stuff from the cab and all over the machine, and overall it was a fast and fascinating hour of teevee. So, if you're a steam-nut (and if you are reading this thread I presume you're interested at least a little bit |
I saw the episodes on the coal train and the cargo container train a couple weeks ago. Great stuff, though I'm not home Tuesday nights so I have to watch on weekends.
Post Title: Re: Re: (Entwerfer des Audis)
Posted by: vwlarry at 8:54 PM 12-10-2008
Post Title: Re: Re: (vwlarry)
Posted by: Big Morgan at 9:15 PM 12-10-2008
| Quote, originally posted by vwlarry » |
| This is the locomotive featured in this week's show...Union Pacific #844. Helluva machine. Don't miss the show if you can help it. |
I'm not a train nut but this is a pretty cool show.
On the other hand, they canceled Dogfights and now have a show about trains - WTF?
Post Title: Re: Re: (Big Morgan)
Posted by: vwlarry at 4:18 AM 12-11-2008
| Quote, originally posted by Big Morgan » |
I'm not a train nut but this is a pretty cool show. On the other hand, they canceled Dogfights and now have a show about trains - WTF? |
If I'm not mistaken, Dogfights has moved to the Military Channel.
Post Title: FV-QR
Posted by: Turbiodiesel! at 8:03 AM 12-11-2008
I get an idea. Beeeeeep! Beeeeep!
FONNNNNNNNKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK FONNNNNNNNNNNNNKKKKKKKKKKKK The earth trembled, stripey overall'ed engineer waved, and off the train went.
Great moment.
Post Title: Re: Re: (vwlarry)
Posted by: atomicalex at 8:55 AM 12-11-2008
| Quote, originally posted by vwlarry » |
| If I'm not mistaken, Dogfights has moved to the Military Channel. |
I have to remember another channel number, now?
If you are into steaming, check out the Historic Strasburg Railroad, right across the street from the Pennsylvania Museum of Railroading, which houses one of the largest collections of restored rolling stock and tractive power in the USA.
If you go to the museum, don't forget to drive the Diesel cab simulator. It's the same one that real engineers train on. You can get your steam fix and your Diesel fix all in one day, and at 4000hp.
Post Title: Re: Re: (atomicalex)
Posted by: vwlarry at 8:35 PM 12-21-2008
Anyway, I like to search for new Doble-spottings in the intarwebnet. I have a fascination with Howard Hughes, and finding a good photo of his 1925 Doble just made my day. Herewith:
[img]
[/img]
Post Title: Re: Re: (vwlarry)
Posted by: Sledge at 8:49 PM 12-21-2008
| Quote, originally posted by vwlarry » |
If I'm not mistaken, Dogfights has moved to the Military Channel. |
I just bought the box sets for seasons 1 and 2 on DVD (9 discs total). Watching it right now actually F-8 Crusader: The Last Gunfighter.
Post Title: Re: Re: (Sledge)
Posted by: vwlarry at 8:58 PM 12-21-2008
| Quote, originally posted by Sledge » |
I just bought the box sets for seasons 1 and 2 on DVD (9 discs total). Watching it right now actually |
Rule one we mustn't forget!
[img]
[/img]
Post Title: Re: Re: (vwlarry)
Posted by: vwlarry at 8:59 AM 12-28-2008
). There are beaucoup interesting links too. If you are reading this, then you're probably interested enough in Doble and steam-power to be interested in reading more. Anyone interested? http://www.damninteresting.com/?p=669
Post Title: Re: Re: (vwlarry)
Posted by: vwlarry at 9:08 AM 12-28-2008
http://content.cdlib.org/view?...00002
Post Title: Re: Re: (vwlarry)
Posted by: Sledge at 8:21 AM 6-23-2009
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2...5-mph/
| Quote » |
We've seen bicycles powered by batteries, fuel cells and even human strength here at ABG but the "R-01 NAN" may be our first look at a contemporary steam-powered bicycle. Sure, we knew they existed but we never imagined someone would think that riding around with both a furnace and a tank full pressurized steam between their legs would be an ideal transportation solution. |
Post Title: Re: Doble Steam-Powered, The Greatest External Combustion Car Ever... (uncleho)
Posted by: jackboots at 8:36 AM 6-23-2009
| Quote, originally posted by uncleho » |
HOLD ON. WAIT A MINUTE! 16 years old? |
|