heres your canvas...

understeer is more commonly associated to front wheel drive cars. This is when you go into a corner and turn the wheel as hard as you can but the momentum of the car actually wants to go forward instead of turning.

I'm sure there is a real great explanation but I'm just not scientific and all.

Jason

And because everyone here in the Car Lounge is a master of car control, you won't hear any disagreement with it.

Ok, so since you have said that... Does an AWD car solve the problem, or does it just have the worst of both worlds

Understeer, the front wheels lose grip and the car turns less than you want it to, forcing you to turn the steering wheel more. In the extreme case, it just goes straight on when you turn the steering wheel.

Oversteer the rear wheels lose grip, start to slide, and the car turns MORE than you want it to, forcing you to reduce steering input to stay on your intended trajectory. You may actually end up with the front wheels steered to the left in a right-hand turn, trying to keep the front ahead of the back. Extreme case, you end up backwards.

Front, rear, or four wheel drive isn't really the issue, weight distribution and suspension design and tuning are more important.

That said, FWD cars tend to understeer at the limit because they have most of their weight on the front wheels. MOST street cars understeer because the car makers design them that way-it's safer for idiots. RWD cars can be made to oversteer by breaking the traction on the rear wheels with power. As much fun as this is, it is rarely (I am tempted to say never) the FAST way. You have seen plenty of movie car chases where the cars go sideways around corners. That's oversteer. You have never seen a circuit racing driver purposely do that (rallying on loose surfaces is a different case) because it is slower.

The ideal is for all four wheels to slide at the same time-the classic "four wheel drift." In this case all four wheels are pointed in a different direction from the actual direction of travel. The ideal difference is usually about 5 degrees, so it is not all that obvious to an outside observer...

Happy solstice y'all

Modified by Dubai Vol at 4:32 PM 12-21-2003

Here, I made a diagram ...

Agtronic Motorsport | Custom Fabrication | Professional TIG Welding | Complete Certification | Roll Cages | (514) 225-3793

LF : 02M 5-SPEED (4 CYL.) W/ ANGLE DRIVE and HALDEX REAR DIFFERENTIAL!

Agtronic Motorsport | Custom Fabrication | Professional TIG Welding | Complete Certification | Roll Cages | (514) 225-3793

LF : 02M 5-SPEED (4 CYL.) W/ ANGLE DRIVE and HALDEX REAR DIFFERENTIAL!

that picture equals my Focus EXACTLY.

Quote, originally posted by DCI_Mr_LSD »

Oversteer scares the passenger? whahaha it scares the hell out of me when im driving aswell. Specially when you do not expect it. Try driving a 800kg 240bhp rwd car in the rain, you expect it to slide. You would not expect it in a sunny hot summers day on dry tarmac...

NEVAR! Oversteer ALWAYS puts a smile on my face, even when it's getting stupid and dangerous, I just can't stop smiling. I learned how to drive on a GMC Vandura cargo van, and I drove it daily for 2-3 years, that thing was so fun. I used to take big sweeping turns on FULL OVERSTEER MODE. It was hilarious, I wish I had footage of that.

Quote, originally posted by All_Texan »

that picture equals my Focus EXACTLY.

My Jetta used to do that until I put in a fat anti-sway bar in the rear. I can still get it to oversteer if I really exagerate with the steering wheel, or I can get the rear end to go completely if I lift the throttle hard in the middle of a hard turn or jerk the car left or right in a certain way. Otherwise the car is neutral.

Modified by Agtronic at 9:41 AM 12-21-2003

Agtronic Motorsport | Custom Fabrication | Professional TIG Welding | Complete Certification | Roll Cages | (514) 225-3793

LF : 02M 5-SPEED (4 CYL.) W/ ANGLE DRIVE and HALDEX REAR DIFFERENTIAL!

Oversteer:

lol

Oversteer:

oversteer:

Oversteer rules

Modified by Chapel at 10:48 AM 12/21/2003

Of course, slow in-fast out is what you want.

in the picture of that Lancer getting sideways, once he can aim those front wheels down the straight... he can get on the gas and reel the rear end in and take off.
in other cars, you have to work the throttle a little better than just standing on it.
However, AWD cars are harder to step out than a RWD car.

Quote, originally posted by All_Texan »

understeer: oversteer:

While oversteer is more fun, I still prefer my car to understeer when I'm driving quickly. I know how cool it is to step out the rear end, I drive a V10 powered F-350 at work, and it's got crap tires too. Plus I live in Canada, so you can imagine it's quite slippery out there this time of year.

My previous car was an Mk2 with a very stiff rear sway bar. It would oversteer slightly when lifting the throttle in a hard turn. It's fun, but in a FWD car the rear is usually so light that when it steps out past a certain angle, you're boned. You start to spin and it's almost impossible to recover.

My Protege has a much higher cornering limit. It understeers a little at the limit, but overall the rear will follow the front no matter how hard you push, no matter how much I lift off. Short of going to the limit of understeer and countersteering agreesively, it's not going to oversteer. It's much more confidence inspiring because of this, and I take corners without even noticing how fast I'm going, at rates that would have spun my Golf into a wall.

Also... to the guy who said that understeer is safer for idiots. Aren't most race cars tuned to understeer as well ? Oversteer is for show, someone that can actually drive fast safely keeps himself on the verge of both understeer and oversteer. If I want to have fun in a parking lot I'll get anything oversteering with the handbrake. When I want to go about my daily commutes quickly and safely, I'll take understeer any day of the week.


Modified by M323 at 6:03 PM 12-21-2003

Definitely the other way around. Correcting understeer is easy, just let off the gas, and you safely pull back into line. Very intuitive. Oversteer is just confusing, if you're not used to RWD cars.

This past summer I took a chevy caprice on a wet skidpad. The idea was to learn how to control oversteer. All I was thinking the whole time was, thank god I have fwd. But damn, it really is fun watching those F1 drivers oversteer their cars......into a wall or gravel!

Quote, originally posted by jbell »

great pic

Now go to the same corner, steer quick and sharp left, then hard and deep right right next to the apex while laying all the way down on the brakes (taking out the ABS fuse would help a lot right here) and your tail should start to come around as the pendulum effect of moving in a circle moves the momentum of your tail more than your front wheels, and you need to start steering left quickly and modulating the gas, as your tail should be coming towards you and you need to keep the front moving with the rear end to complete the 'drift' without spinning. Oversteer.
You can also steer into the corner and pull on the handbrake to bring the rear around but thats not exactly condusive to rear tire life, you can flatspot the rears, and its slower. Its all about the Scandanavian flick/pendulum turn/inertia drift/feint.

Disclaimer-Only do this on a track, under supervision of an expert racer, underpants gnomes have a complete plan, removing abs is a death wish, etc etc etc

Maybe that's why it comes so natural to me.

Quote »

Disclaimer-Only do this on a track, under supervision of an expert racer, underpants gnomes have a complete plan, removing abs is a death wish, etc etc etc

Agtronic Motorsport | Custom Fabrication | Professional TIG Welding | Complete Certification | Roll Cages | (514) 225-3793

LF : 02M 5-SPEED (4 CYL.) W/ ANGLE DRIVE and HALDEX REAR DIFFERENTIAL!

No and no!

The only true race car I've ever had the pleasure of riding in around a track oversteered like crazy compared to my 240SX, and it was a FWD car.

Oversteer is not for show. Maximum cornering speeds even in the dry are achieved with a SLIGHT rear slip angle. Not 45 degrees of opposite lock drift (exaggerated oversteer), but like 3-5 degrees of slip as the car rotates.

Quote, originally posted by Chapel »

Not always true. When my mom's Ford Escort starts to understeer there is nothing you can do except pray that the curb isn't too high. My Sentra would understeer with power-on and oversteer with power-off. It was extremely well balanced. I scared myself with oversteer a couple times but it was very controlable, understeer on the otherhand is very hard to control in a FWD, and is very scary.

There are two arguements here. Your mom's escort probably has mediocre tires at best. Unless I'm driving like a COMPLETE ass in my corrado, or most other fwd cars, understeer is very controllable, and predictable. This brings up another issue, if your taking a hairpin at 70 mph (which should say be driven at 45mph), you'll loose control no matter what your driving, and likely crash. Going beyond the limits of the car and tires is no arguement for why one type of traction loss is better than the other.

Oversteer: you dont see the wall when you hit it

How are you going any faster with a minimal oversteer?

You really can't power out of a turn with the rear out without aggravating things. You'll have to recover from the oversteer, which in most cases requires countersteering, which will take you slightly out of the ideal line, and slightly lifting off throttle, which will mean you'll cut your acceleration time while you power out of the turn.

The fastest way around a corner is the one that has the exiting at the highest speed. Ideally you should see nothing but understeer while you corner. Oversteering is usually the result of compensating for entering too fast.

Modified by M323 at 9:45 PM 12-21-2003

Modified by M323 at 9:47 PM 12-21-2003

Quote, originally posted by matt007 »

You only need to countersteer inside a corner if you are at too extreme of a slip angle, or you have more weight in the rear than front. If the car you are driving is balanced your slip angle inside a corner is modulatable by the throttle, you don't need the steering wheel. You slip the tail out with moderate throttle, exit the corner while still at a slight angle with moderate throttle and then gently apply full throttle when the tail evens out enough. Be careful though, when exiting a corner at maximum lateral grip then applying power in a RWD car, you have to be careful to wait for the car's inertia to change directions, I've spun in a circle doing this because I still had too much sideways momentum oops

Is this sort of thing really considered oversteer? Such a slight movement from the rear end really doesn't require much if any steering correction. I've experienced this in the corrado on a track. This slight rotation of the car only happened when ALL inputs and the line I took was correct. I simply assumed that this was what happened when a car is driven at 10/10th's of its limit. Regardless of whether the car is front or rear wheel drive.

More acurately, the car felt kind of like it was floating through the turn. The car was right at the edge of adhesion.

And it's a great feeling eh?

Agtronic Motorsport | Custom Fabrication | Professional TIG Welding | Complete Certification | Roll Cages | (514) 225-3793

LF : 02M 5-SPEED (4 CYL.) W/ ANGLE DRIVE and HALDEX REAR DIFFERENTIAL!

(no comments about it being messy i only spent about a minute on it)

Very cool and very different at the same time. The car was kind of driving itself, there was very little steering input necessary. As if there was a pole going right through the exact center of the car, and the body was rotating around the pole.