ok, stay with me here...

When the R concept was presented, it was reveiled that when VAG was developing the MKV platform, they made it so that it would easily adapt to a transverse RR car.

Now that didn't make sense to me. The MKV platform is an important one, arguable the most important platform within the VAG group. Why would they go through the effort of making it RR compatible, for just one single model. Wouldn't it be easier to give a low scale project its own low scale platform?
I suspect that VAG will have to have multiple cars with the RR configuration, to justify effort.

At first I thought they were going to share the RR configuration with Porsche, à la Cayenne platform, for a 914 "Vopo" successor. The Boxster would be moving up, like models always do, and a 914 successor would fill the hole left by that.

But the recent Turbo S thread made me think about the next New Beetle. Is it possible that the New New Beetle puts the engine where it belongs? My arguments, in no particular order:
- VW will have to offer something interesting, b/c the next one won't be able to bank on its funky looks alone. That card has been played.
- The New Beetle has never been a practical car. Nobody buys it for practical reasons, so they wouldn't be bothered by the practical sacrifices of an RR layout.
- It could serve as VWs sporty coupé in the same go. VW hasn't had a car in that market since the Corrado. Make the Beetle roof less round, and you've got yourself a decent looking coupé.
- The Turbo S and RSi models show that VW is willing to go the sporty route with the New Beetle.

Maybe I'm being silly, but I cannot believe that VW would engineer a RR platform for a single model. And it makes more sense than the Pheaton.
As far as the New Beetle goes. Either they'll have to make some drastic changes to it, to make it more than a Golf in drag, or they'll have to discontinue it.

Facelifted Beetle (very minor) with 5 cylinder engine is due in 2005.

Nothing has ever been set in stone about the New Beetle's future.

but i highly doubt it will happen. can you imagine an 'image' car like the Beetle... a car that 16yo girls get for birthday presents... that college kids get as a first car... suddenly went to a RWD layout? i think the liability would be too high for VW to make such a move.

people have already got used to the 'normal' driving of the FWD Beetle. some kid would wrap your proposed RWD Beetle around a tree in the rain... and instead of blaming the general inexperience of the driver and their complete inexperience in the dynamics involved in a Rear Engined RWD car... they would instead vilify the layout itself... a la Corvair.

it'd be a PR nightmare for such a popular nameplate.

that said... i dig the Concept R ... and would totally dig a hardtop version called... lets say... Karmann Ghia? (though IIRC Ford owns the "Ghia" name now or something weird like that...)

2000 Audi TT quattro
1999 Chevrolet Astro (with "Naut" plates. ha!)
1969 Chevrolet Chevelle (project car...)

Isn't this just a lil over the top.

you don't think a mass-market general use car switching to a vastly different drivetrain layout with different handling characteristics than 95% of the cars on the road wouldn't be vilified the instant someone crashed it? and instead blame the driver? you have vastly higher faith in the news media than i do. hell... they nearly killed off Audi in NA based on it having 'slightly different pedal placement'...

2000 Audi TT quattro
1999 Chevrolet Astro (with "Naut" plates. ha!)
1969 Chevrolet Chevelle (project car...)

...my sentiment

Does Ford get sued over the Mustang?
Does Mazda get sued over the Miata?
Audi, on the other hand, got sued over their FWD TT. OK, I'm not sure they got sued, but the sporty suspension tuning caught some people by suprise, and some people died. IIRC, they paid compensation. That's when the little spoiler was added.

RWDs aren't instant death-machines. The understeer that gives FWD cars that predictable handling can be replicated in the set-up of a RWD car.
The SUVs that kids are getting now are a far bigger risk.

Modified by peach at 5:45 PM 10-11-2004

Quote, originally posted by 13minutes »

Isn't this just a lil over the top.

From Dictionary.com:

Quote »

hy·per·bo·le ( P ) Pronunciation Key (h-pûrb-l) n. \Hy*per"bo*le\, n. [L., fr. Gr?, prop., an overshooting, excess, fr. Gr. ? to throw over or beyond; "ype`r over + ? to throw. See Hyper-, Parable, and cf. Hyperbola.] (Rhet.) A figure of speech in which the expression is an evident exaggeration of the meaning intended to be conveyed, or by which things are represented as much greater or less, better or worse, than they really are; a statement exaggerated fancifully, through excitement, or for effect.

At least, that's what I hope he was trying to do.

As for the idea of a rear-engined New New Beetle, there's a far larger impracticality to it: price. While the new sports car platform will be designed to be inexpensive, I doubt it'll be cheap enough to accomodate a car in the $15K range.

See: Dodge Razor.

You can't strip that down without it still being rather alarmist.

Quote »

As for the idea of a rear-engined New New Beetle, there's a far larger impracticality to it: price. While the new sports car platform will be designed to be inexpensive, I doubt it'll be cheap enough to accomodate a car in the $15K range. See: Dodge Razor.

True. But couldn't this be an opportunity for companies to combine efforts on a small RWD platform? I doubt a new Beetle would be anything but FWD, but that still makes for an interesting solution.

Are 300C or Magnums owners hurling themselves off the highways?
This isn't about faith in the media, it's faith in the average driver's abilities, but more of the car's engineering. We're not talking old 911 Turbo's that lift throttle oversteer.

Modified by 13minutes at 9:12 PM 10-11-2004

The reason why you don't see many cheap RWDs, is because cheap cars are smaller. FWD is the more practical choice for small cars. I can't think of anything that would make RWD inherently more expensive. Ladas, old Fiats, old Beetles, were RWD and cheap.

You'll have to explain this one, because I don't see how. What part of a transverse RR makes it more expensive than a transverse FF. Same engine, same suspension.

The only big mechanical difference I can think of, is that a FF has a more complicated joint with the wheel-unit. (don't know the official term)

Of course, you have to look at how the new Beetle compares to the old Beetle before you can say the new Beetle isn't utilitarian. The new Beetle has a larger trunk with a flat floor, fold-down rear seats, and tons of head room (read: great volume!).

The new Beetle is in fact a practical car, as it can also seat 4 with modest comfort.

As a VW enthusiast (with a collection of 60's and 70's aircooled VWs) I was looking forward to a New Beetle. When I heard rumours of the 1.8T I was really looking forward. But the whole FWD thing bugged me (no pun intended!). F|F? On a Beetle? Beetle's are R|R!! How could VW get it so wrong?

Didn't stop me from buying a Silver Turbo in late 1999 though. And once I had it, I understood. It was about a trade-off of cost and efficiency. Going F|F not only made more sense (transverse engine, transaxle, etc) for cost control, but it also made a much more efficient use of space. And being that this car needed to feel solid and "German" to really impress Joe Consumer, and still look Cute for Jane, safety and design had to work together. Much like the Beetle of old (except for the price maybe) this car needed to fit all kinds of lifestyles and roles. From family car, to single young unmarried guy car, to pizza boy car.

Well, anyway, let's just say I'm glad VW made the change to F|F for the New Beetle. Overall, it's helped the car become better accessible to the general public. I'm sure it will never come close to selling in the multitudes that the original did, but for what it is, I think it's done a great job.

So as for the future... I can't see VW making the Beetle as anything more than "basic" transport. If going R|R could somehow increase interior volume or somehow make the car more utilitarian, then VW might have a case to persue it. Otherwise, I wouldn't count it. I can see the New Beetle staying around for another full decade with a host of exterior enhancements and simple fascia revisions. But I can't see VW going to great pains to re-invent the wheel. Especially when it's good enough for now, and there are plenty of other fires to put out.

What I DO see with a R|R platform is a Karmann Ghia

If VW would come up with Karman Ghia replacement that was true to it's roots with all the modern amenities, I'd jump on it. (Maybe that's why I like the Audi TT - while certainly not a Karman Ghia, it reminds me of one in many ways.)

Find all of the Flashback episodes in The Automobile Flashback Series Index

dude,
old aircooled beetles are RWD, and yet these cars have been hugely popular, perhaps even the most popular car ever built.

and i agree with the idea of a new karmann ghia. it's tempting to dream of an RWD new bug, but the RR potentials of the MkV must have been designed for a sportier coupe.

Quote, originally posted by Taimar2 »

Back then all an engineer needed was talent and a tangible product. Not like today where you have to get a PhD in Nuclear Physics so that you can go design tail-lights for a Chevy Malibu.

oh really. i didn't realize that.

yes. i was exaggerating to prove a point. point being: there has not been a mass-market every-man car with a RR layout in a good 25 years. this isn't an MR2 or Fiero. we're talking about a car that is hugely popular with those that might not understand or care about the dynamic differences in driving a rear-engined RWD car. *everybody* knows how to drive a FWD car. FWD errs on the side of understeer... which in general is safer on the streets of the every-man than erring on the side of oversteer. i realize RWD can be dialed in to handle *mostly* in a FWD way... but in a time of an emergency correction... i'd rather the *average driver* think they are driving a FWD car like they are used to (and like the *majority* of cars in this class) than a RR car that they are *not* use to.

not bashing the idea. i'd love to see a RR car with a hard top as discribed. it'd be great. i just don't think that car should be the New New Beetle. i think it would be a bad move for the PR reasons i mentioned.

and of course the already mentioned packaging/servicing issues that have already been explained by others.

Quote »

and i agree with the idea of a new karmann ghia. it's tempting to dream of an RWD new bug, but the RR potentials of the MkV must have been designed for a sportier coupe.

indeed. a legit hardtop based on the Concept R would be awesome. as a modern take on the Karmann Ghia? totally awesome.

really... does anyone remember the full issue with the "Ghia" name and Ford ownership? i swear i read that somewhere... in a thread years ago about why there can never be another "Karmann Ghia".

2000 Audi TT quattro
1999 Chevrolet Astro (with "Naut" plates. ha!)
1969 Chevrolet Chevelle (project car...)

i think it's because someone told henry ford II that they can never produce something as beautiful and classic as a european car, then pointed to some auto designed by ghia.

ford was insulted so they bought the ghia design studio the next day.

errr, at least that was how i remebered reading it.

Quote, originally posted by Taimar2 »

Back then all an engineer needed was talent and a tangible product. Not like today where you have to get a PhD in Nuclear Physics so that you can go design tail-lights for a Chevy Malibu.