Baseline Car is APR ST3 with Forge FMIC, BMC Intake and stock 225 intake Manifold.

I dynoed the car about 2 yrs ago and got what I thought were respectable #'s, many said they weren't *real* numbers because technically I did have 100 oct in the tank, while running the APR 93 program. For my first ever dyno, I wanted to have a 93 and a 100 oct run just to see what it pulls....however, it DID have 100 oct in the tank with the 93 program running but there is no other way of doing it short of draining the fuel tank

The first dyno is from 2 yrs ago and the car mechanically is the same, nothing had been added or changed....NOTHING. The only 2 differences between then and now is that this time, no 100 octane whatsover and this time of year, the weather is much better turbo weather so keep that in mind...

1st one done in 2002 83* and 29% humidty
2nd one done in 2004 66* and 9% humidty

I set myself up thinking that the dyno WAS going to be worse because of the 100 octane thing.....

However.....

Dyno 003 is 2002
Dyno 004 is 2004

Zero smoothing and SAE CF

These overlayed dynos were about 1 min 30 sec from each other today with no changes...just how I drove it in...stock 225 manifold.

Zero smoothing and SAE CF

Dyno 004 is the first baseline run
Dyno 005 is the second baseline run

On to the goodstuff.....

Dyno 04 is the 1st baseline today with stock 225 manifold
Dyno 06 is the 1st baseline with the new Dahlback manifold...no other changes.

The #'s are there in black and white.

Zero smoothing and SAE CF

Numbers speak for themselves...

Figure 284 vs 290 hp rounding it out.... Not bad at all

However, there was about the same loss of 7 ft / lbs on the torque in the same spot and rpm range...

Kind of cancels it out depending on how you look at it....

Here is one more dyno chart that I thought was interesting, not for any other reason than to debate that a smoothed dyno chart is MUCH different than your regular UNsmoothed dyno chart, notice that this chart is exactly the same as the one above, just with a dynojet smoothing factor of 5 (which happens to be the highest on a 0-5 scale)

Gain of about 8 hp and the loss of 8ft/lbs tq.... weird. I guess I thought smoothing it would make the variations *less* between variables, not more....oh well.

On the way home from NGP http://www.ngpracing.com (who graciously allowed me to hold up the dyno for the whole day while I switched manifolds and allowed me to bum a few clamps and stuff) I called Randy at TJM and told him the news...I gave him the decency of letting him know the results 1st before I posted em here for you guys...

I got home and sent him the dyno files (btw if anyone wants me to send them so you can view them with the dynojet file reader and get all the specs, temp, humidity, time rpm, A/f ratio etc.....IM and I will send them to you...) and we talked about the results...

We talked about whether we should have reset the ecu's each time before the 2 major runs, but I thought it to be bad to reset the fuel trim and any other adaptations right before you rev the crap out of your car on the dyno.

We talked about whether I did a recalibration of the throttle body ( I did not) since it was unplugged and then replugged in ???(Any insight on whether that matters???)

Randy at TJM thought that the #'s were not what they had hoped for because they had a bit different results but they never had #'s to compare like what I did today. They had always resest the T.B. and driven the car in between dynos...

Randy asked if I would be willing to get back to the dyno shortly at his expense and retest the setup after the car had been driven a bit and had time to adapt.

No problemo....

Here is the deal, its the holidays coming up very shortly and I work in retail...so it is a busy time for me but in a week or so after the new year I will be back on the dyno to see what happens....The shop stays a pretty consistent temp with the heaters this time of year, and as long as there is not alot of humidity...the #'s should be comparable....

After the ride home tonight, I have no intentions of taking this manifold off the car...I had my chance to send it back with refund of everything and only be out my time today...Nope, it is staying on the car.

I have owned the car 4 yrs, 2 years with the APR Stg 3 and I have NEVER broke the wheels loose in 3rd gear except when I had 100 oct in the car....only times.

Today, with 93 in the tank and the 93 program.......broke the wheels loose in 3rd.....in a heavy TT....I'll take that

Syay tuned for more info.....

Modified by hoTTub at 12:30 PM 12-16-2004

edit:
just read. great write up!!

Modified by gt2437 at 5:50 PM 12-14-2004

I dont think they had a time in mind really, it just needs to probably go through more than just an idle warm up period before another dyno run....ya know, throught the gears and into the boost a bit. All we did was get the coolant level up to normal before unleashing her. I know I stomped on it a few times on the way home and it wasn't until a little jockying for position to turn with another car that I stomped on it and she broke loose in 3rd......~honk~ sniff~ Daddy is sooo proud

Modified by hoTTub at 6:19 PM 12-14-2004

That is the only place it made power, literally. To me, the difference in spool is negligable.

Interesting results.

"We don't do 1 thing 100% better, we do 100 things 1 percent better"

R36
550i

First off having the TB disconnected to change the manifolds would not affet anything unless possily the key was switched on and it threw a code for a TB.

Clearing the codes before each run may have had some affects but if you are going to do that you must do it right before each run at aproximately the same time before you plan to do the next run to ensure that adaptation is as equal as it can be. I would say there is some possible adaptation needed to extract maximum power out of a mod like this but nothing you would say OMG over a few days later.

How many runs were done with the DBR manifold on the car? You show two before and only 1 after run. The gains are not spectacular were they worse on the second run (which theorecially should have been more adapated).

Also you mention you went home (I think thats what you said) to change the manifolds. How far of a drive was it.. back roads or highways?? Did you go WOT with the car? Or was it changed at the shop I forget what was said.

The dyno looks like what happens on any specially tuned intake, manifold it only works in one area of the power band because thats where it happens to make that "perfect" frequency.

OPINION OPINION OPINION (if you don't like it hit the back arrow)

I personally would say from the results where they stand that it is not worth the cost of this upgrade. The area under the curve where there are gains is extremely small only about 750rpm and are not that spectactular at that. If this were to retail in say the $400 range tops I'd say maybe people should consider it but what really needs to be looked at is the area under the curve and its far from impressive for that price.

These rules apparently do not apply to all members.

Chris, I did 3 runs with the DBR manifold but did not post them because they were worse, but I attributed that more to heat soak just like what was shown the the 2nd chart above.....even with a FMIC, you still lose HP, especially with only waiting a minute or so in between runs... I can post them but I did not think they were really relevant...

As for the drive home...no, the car did not leave the dyno....2 baseline runs with the 225 manifold were done and then shut off and the manifold changed on the dyno, not even unstrapped. I did the swap myself.

Only time for adaptation would be the idle up to normal coolant temp to do a safe run while it was at operating temp.

Like I said, I could return it for a full refund of parts and dyno time, and I have no intention on doing it

I"d post them they could be very relevant. If the manifold has a spike there it should do it on every run somewhat consistantly even if the over all power is lower.. Now that you mention the car was not driven and left on the dyno makes me question the over all power even more then orginally. The first dynos would have been straight off the road with much higher under hood temps then letting it sit to work on the car while it was changed (how long did the swap take), especially if you said it sat long enough for the coolant temps to drop enough to warrant warming it up again.

Certainly not 30hp no matter how youlook at it.

I'm gonna have to go back to my orginal thought that the thin opening that is supposed to make for even airflow is actually probably causing some sort of restriction that only allows an increase in airflow at the one frequency that occurs in that rpm range.

These rules apparently do not apply to all members.

Sorry, but you didn't answer my question; I'm not questioning the #'s when you went home and went ripping thru the gears how was the response in between shifts...did it improve or you really can't tell the difference...Thanks

Just for clarification...

the car was not driven ON to the dyno and then.....BS'd for a while, strapped the car in etc.....all in all, about an hour passed from the time I pulled in to the time I dynoed...

It took me about 2 hrs or so to do the swap, I had to reroute some vac lines and trial fit some things before I hacked my other setup...

So, yes...about 2 hrs passed but the car was brought up to temp and I was not ROMPING on it when I was driving to NGP....

Can't say I noticed a diff in spool, only a bit in power

Thanks, reason why I was asking is b/c of it's particular design. It seems that it would more effeciently pack more charge hence the response time. They more than likely used the same principles in design from their own track car.

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LONG VERSION
http://vettenet.org/torquehp.html

It's too bad you didn't get air fuel readings on each run. Air fuel can tell alot when comparing dyno runs, especially when you can compare them on an overlayed dyno chart.

Now, I am not saying your fuel isn't right. Obviously I see no data. I am just saying that one possiblity could be that the increased airflow did not yield increased fueling, and you ran a little lean. Or, the increased airflow could have richened you out a bit. Or, the more likely factor is that this manifold didn't increase the available volume of air enough to make much of a difference in airflow.

airflow aside, engine management is everything. Especially when making a change in actual airflow (not just an air filter).

Quote, originally posted by shadowmilkman »

lol how do u have a VRT and only 58 posts, that is awsome btw

How do you have spongebob squarepants ants in the pants and I cant buy a chessboard. - Me in Walmart

I feel that driving the car would have made a big difference, not 30 hp, but maybe 10. I know what you mean about the burning the tires. it's like when you switch programs the car is not fast at first, but a half hour later, and it's way faster. You don't realize how much better the 100 oct file is untill you switch back to 93 and whack the throttle.

Tha said, i am patiently awaiting the second bacth of dyno runs. please make sure any and all smoothing and related correction factors remain the same. As you showed, simple data manipulation can make a big difference.

Also if you did a before and after g/s log, or block 26 knock sensor voltage that woudl be great.

Thanks for you efforts

Modified by enginerd at 9:49 PM 12-14-2004

Yes, but not within the next pull! It takes change over time for any adaptation to occur.

Remember Motronic's primary goal in adaptation isn't our primary goal - power. It's more concerned with fuel economy and prevention of it's own destruction. It's concerned with making sure VW doesn't have to shell out the big bucks for boo-boos while still having some fun with boost.

I am really interested to hear how this feels in the next couple days and to see the dynos!

I would also be interested to see someone with a true speed density system to do back to back runs with tuning in between. Go to a dyno and advance timing until no extra power is made, then turn back a couple degrees. Get the fuel curve flat and consistent.

Then, throw this manifold on, get the fuel curve flat again (speed density doesn't know flow, just pressure. Increase fuel @ said psi until fuel goes flat again assuming airflow did increase. Then dyno.

those are some awesome peak power gains especially like the way it helps out up top.

dahlback mani might come in handy if you are going for higher boost...

good wrightup

http://www.europeanag.com

GONE: GTI GT30R 385whp on Revo BT
RIGHT CLick and save: here is my GTI video. 10min of slowness

that is a transverse 1.8t in the pic. just happens to be a 225 TT manifold w/ the reverse orientation on the throttle body. They also have the 150/180 transverse manifold too.

yeah for the VWs i ment...

http://www.europeanag.com

GONE: GTI GT30R 385whp on Revo BT
RIGHT CLick and save: here is my GTI video. 10min of slowness

yep, they do.