Without a doubt, anyone who has the ability to envision a quality car and go about the process of constructing it on his or her own is worthy of high praise indeed. Most enthusiasts look up to such individuals and rightly so. But does this mean that those of us who cannot weld, paint, or wrench do not deserve admiration?

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as modders we all get jealous/mad/angry/excited when we see a car that is "done". one that is so complete that the word perfect is usually used but then we get pissed and say "i bet the owner just put it all on their credit" SO WHAT. they have created a beautiful car (most of the time) for their own and our enjoyment.

Bravo Brad for letting it be known that the ones that spend the money deserve as much respect as the ones that do it all themselves.

now about the audi A3!!!!

Thanks, Bri, but I never said the checkbook champions deserve the same amount of respect as the DIY-ers... Those folks are on another level, IMO.

I'm just saying that sometimes people tend to write off the owner of a nice car if they didn't actually build it with their own hands, and that's not fair or accurate.

I'd have to say that being one who does most all of the work on my car, I will always have much more respect for the guy who did the work himself even though his car might not look/perform as well as the guy who paid to have it done. Yes, judges might not care who did the work but my pride in that I did it myself would make up for any lost points .

Modified by speedtriple43 at 11:23 AM 7-25-2005

Quote, originally posted by dubsix »

good points

Ditto. Having followed the thread that inspired this article, I think it is well written.

7ike a moth 2 the flam6

i knew what i wanted to type and it didnt come out right. i didnt mean as much respect as those who build it, but still deserve respect for creating a beautiful car.

Modified by Loshambo at 2:42 PM 7-25-2005

It's the same principle behind an architect. He comes up with the concept, draws up plans. But he needs the help of structural and a host of other engineers to figure out how to make it work. Then the construction workers build it all. The finished building stands as a piece of art built by many hands, but it's the dream of one mind-the architect. He gets the credit.

Same with Alexander Calder. He's the artist famous for creating the incredibly huge hanging mobiles (I think the Smithsonian has his most famous works). He designed them and figured out the balance and all that - but actually building the structures was left to machine shops and technicians who built them.

Clean 1997 Jetta GLX for sale: [url=http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=4322953[/url]

But we still PAY with hard-earned money.

Paying for your car is perfectly fine for the reasons you mentioned, lack the abiulity, time, other priorities etc. However take 2 identical cars, one bought and one built and there isn't a comparison on the level of respect given to the owners.

I resemble that remark!

I've done some of my own mods, and I've paid for others. Between my wife, 3 kids, & work I don't usually have time to tackle bigger projects anymore. Does that make me or my car worthy of lesser respect because I paid for my vision rather than build it all myself? I worked my azz off for what I have, just like the guy who built his own ride. And while I do respect someones mechanical ability for being able to do it all, it does not lessen my opinion of people if they didn't.

Actually most of the people I know in my situation (wife, kids, house, etc.) stopped being able to afford a car hobby long ago. So I pat myself on the back for being handle it all.

J.

great googly-moogly, do I WISH!

If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough. - Mario Andretti

But there is nothing like the feeling of turning a steering wheel that you hand stitched in perforated leather and installed yourself, nothing like looking at a set of wheels that you painstakingly sought after and collected each part for a year, then polished and painted yourself, and nothing like taking down a 'normally' quicker car than yours thanks to the engine building that you've done yourself.

I also notice that a lot of people that pay to have their cars built up by tuners are also VERY quick to sell them when they're done. The people that build the car themselves.... well, they aren't.

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"Good dude, bad night, right place, wrong time; in the blink of an eye, his whole life changed"
-K. West

No matter if you get trophies. You guys at NGP are tops You guys put the crossflow motor into my scirocco and it is nicely done. It's an example of when you should let the more experienced pro's handle a job. Well, I still have yet to drive the car.. so I hope it runs well on a daily basis when I get it back from the clutches of my body shop. After that, it's DIY time.

Agreed on all points. Working, Keeping your woman happy and home maintained is all one can do.

90 Mercury Topaz

I think those who pay for everything to be done on there cars are underachievers.

I know plenty of people who have careers, families, wives and girlfriends, and they do most if not all of the work on there cars. My Dad is one. He works hard usually six days a week, has a wife, family, and other hobbies, yet he still does most of the work on his cars, and all the work on his home. I have a friend who's Dad also has a career, wife and family and he has the whole shibang in his garage (lift, pneumatics) and he does most of the work on his cars. In fact he works on many others Porsche's in Northern New Mexico and he still has time for his kids and other hobbies (my Dad and him are avid cyclists). When I first rebuilt my transmission it was in High School. This was while I was going to school, playing football (coming home at 9:00), and partying. I read up on how to do things here on vortex and went after it. It was super easy! I can't wait to rebuilt my engine someday, it'll be a walk in the park! Another friend here on vortex got his car repainted by someone else but did all of the prep work and installing of bodywork himself (and does about everything else himself) and he is not that great mechanically (no offense Justin). Yet he tries to do everything himself because wants to learn and he want a part of him in that car. And yet another friend of mine who is here on vortex recently got a mk3 vr6 and is still just learning the fundamentals. I'm not up in Los Alamos to help him or to see him work, so I get to see what he's doing and what he's learning through vortex. It's great seeing a person grow, I am seriously very proud of him. (I'm going to IM him and tell him right after this)

Doing it yourself is half the fun too!

Quote, originally posted by Loshambo »

we still PAY with hard-earned money.

This is why I will probably start my own business, so I can TAKE your hard-earned money. Wouldn't you guys want to spent that hard-earned money on other things when you could be saving that money doing stuff on your car yourself? It's convenience. You would rather spend your time on something else and your money on your car than opening a book or just reading here on vortex on how to do things yourself and saving money in the process. I have found this trend in people these days and I was going to write my own article on this and publish it on vortex or somewhere else before Brad made this article.

Time is the single most important and greatest asset we have here on earth; so make use of every moment. Instead of watching tv or playing video games, or if your not doing those things, MAKE TIME like the people I mentioned and go out and wrench on the car, or read up on how to do things. So what if you mess up, that's how you learn! This is how I learned, I read books and read here on vortex how to do things and just played around with my car. Did I mess things up? Hell ya, but I learned from it and learned how to fix it.

Most people who do their own car work also find it therapeutic.

Like someone already said, those who have checkbook cars tend to sell them quickly. Why? Pride. They didn't pour blood, sweet, and tears over that car, and they can easily let it go which is sad .

So maybe next you are sitting down to watch tv, or just have a moment with nothing to do, open a book or come to vortex, read up, and learn how to do things; anyone can. And maybe next time you'll do it yourself instead of paying someone else to.

Do those who write checks for their car still deserve respect? Well, I guess they did pick out the parts to put on it and maybe the color to paint it. I would not say that those people are the architects of their cars, or builders (in reference to houses). They are more like interior decorators who pick out the furniture and the wall color. The architects would be the guy who originally designed your car and the guy who designed the side skirts you bought. The builder would be the guy you pay to paint and install those sideskirts.

Modified by speedtriple43 at 3:37 AM 7-26-2005

Secondly, I agree that the satisfaction of using something you made, or the fact that only you know how you made it work, has to be more than the initial pick-up from a shop.

Sadly time and other constraints mean that I often have to outsource certain jobs that once I would have tackled and I know it just doesn't feel the same...

However, no matter how we build em' as long as we love em' its all cool

The perfect example of this was my brother Tonly (RIP ), who did all work himself.
He would love speaking to people who had just spent 5k on a new shop-fitted stereo system, only to then spank them in both sound and quality with a prettier install that he made himself for less than half...

Lewis Hamilton
2010 comeback tour.

Congratulations Ben Spies. US WORLD superbike champion

I agree with what you are saying and understand but I don't think you quite understand us. In your first scenario, how much time do these guys actually spend with their wife/kids? had you not been into cars as a child, assuming you were b/c that's why we are all such fanatics now, how much time would you have actually spent with your dad? If he works 6 days a week and then comes home and spends 2, 3, 4 hours on the car what does that leave...maybe dinner? I work 8-5, if I came home and spent even 2 hours (which is a very light job maybe brakes) on the car then it would be at least 8pm before I could even think of giving my finance time (giving an hour to get home and change clothes and grab a snack). After that, how much quality time are you actually spending with your family if you try to be in bed by 10:30 or 11. I mean honestly I think most people would be at least somewhat fatigued. And that's just the average person. I happen to be in school for accounting. I'm not sure if you have ever tried to tackle some individual income tax homework, but that's not something that can be done in 30 minutes or even an hour sometimes and that's just one class. And yes we do have to read to figure out how to fix our cars. Does that too not add more time to the process which also takes away from family.

How long was your car our of commision while you rebuilt your transmission? As for your second point about messing up. No it's not that big of a deal and can be fixed, but now you are not only spending more time fixing something that could have been fixed properly the first time and you are also having to spend more money. And let say that this mistake happens to be on a critical part such as your brakes going back to my original example. If for some reason they happen to be functioning improperly and you run into something tell me what would be cheaper: Taking your car to even the dealership and paying 150-300 or paying the expenses for a car accident that you cause? Even if you don't actually cause an accident but this is your only car and you have to get to your daily job the next day how is that going to happen?

I'm not trying to dispute your point because I understand where you are coming from and you are right. But what we are trying to show is that these things some at an opportunity cost. I happen to feel that by me spending time with my fiance, getting a degree and paying someone to fix my car at this point is going to be much more rewarding than being outside all the time and only seeing her at dinner and bedtime.

Modified by gotpsi at 10:24 AM 7-26-2005

"Good dude, bad night, right place, wrong time; in the blink of an eye, his whole life changed"
-K. West

"...we were known for cranking out a few nice cars from time to time..." is a huge understatement. You & VWSport/1552 Design built many outstanding cars...even if you guys didn't do the work yourselves. The concepts and ideas were yours (all of you).

Thanks for addressing this topic. It was execellently written. I couldn't have been so unbiased about it. I would've specifically taken all of those with that mentality to school.

I think you should write a follow up and provid specific examples of manufacturers and tuners that work don't do all of the work themselves or take advantage of rebranding. For example, you know when ABT came on the scene their products were(a still are) of great quality...but they didn't make them themselves. The pedals and knobs were Zender, the front upper stress bar was Eibach, the wheels were OZ and so on. Yet everyone was paying more for the der ABT brand for the identical product. Hey! Even VW pieces together a car made of products (made to their specs) from outside vendors, i.e...sachs, bosch, zender, hella, recaro, BBS, michelin, bose, etc...

So let's see that part 2and include some examples of those that some of the work and outsource the rest.


Modified by DTMVDUB at 8:56 AM 7-26-2005

I think I like the overall gist of what you are saying. I totally admire someone who does ALL the work on their car. These people are like modern day Rennaissance men. They can do it all. Between judiciously reading specific books, interacting with specific people, and just plain getting their hands dirty and playing things by ear certain people can seemingly accomplish anything on their own. However, most people aren't this way. That's just a fact. The person who can envision everything necessary for that special car and then do it all on their own is the exception, not the rule. Again, another reason why I really admire these people. However, there are others who can do the work and their ideas, well, suck. The car will be overdone and too flashy. Do these people deserve the same amount of respect? They did everything themselves, but the car looks horrible. I've seen it too many times at various VW shows.

What about the people that can do some things, but not others. I feel very confident working on some aspects of my car. For instance brakes are very easy, yet replacing the timing chains is not something I want to deal with right now. I would attempt it if I could work WITH someone who was experienced, but most likely when the time comes, the job will get outsourced. There are just too many sourcs for error that can lead to serious money.

There are also people who just plain don't like working on their cars period. What's wrong with that? I mean if these people make enough money to spend big bucks on their car, I think that is just as admirable. I mean I like to drive my car. Period. Given the choice I would rather pay someone to make my car work in a timely manner than screw around trying to make it work. Now given my current financial situation I do a lot of what needs to be done to my cars, but definitely not all. I can't afford to mess up the tuning of my blower just so that I can get the experience, resulting in a blown engine. It would be far cheaper to pay someone to do the work than for me to experiment and get it wrong.

So do you have more respect for the mechanics who fix M. Schumachers (sp?) F1 car than for the man himself? I mean he doesn't do a lick of work on the car, he just drives. And he's awesome at driving. Racing is a group effor no doubt, but it's the driver who wins the races and makes the big money, not the people rebuilding the motors after each race.

On the same note, when I see someone with an awesome modified car, I never ask them if they did the work. Who cares? The fact is, they own an awesome car, and I compliment the owner on such a ride. It's great if they did everythign themselves, but it's equally great if they had a vision and paid someone to do most of the work, and equally fine if they bought the car in it's awesome state.

You must really hate those guys who pay Foose/Coddington to make them a hotrod, or Orange County to make a custom chopper. Everyone has to eat and not everyone has the skills to make great things happen with their own hands. Or the time, or even interest.

But there are two issues here:
1. People who don't work on there car because, well, their to lazy to learn and to do so and the opportunity cost is less to do it themselves.
2. People who don't work on there car because they really cannot do it because the opportunity cost is too high to do it themselves.

My argument is against #1. I fully understand issue #2.

One of the greatest things I have learned in college is time management; sometimes you have to make appointments to do things like studying and partying. I think a lot of people can make appointments with themselves to do things, like the busy people I mentioned before. But most people just don't have the time management skills, evaluate the opportunity cost wrong, or are just lazy.

Quote, originally posted by Loshambo »

You guys at NGP are tops

I'm relatively new at NGP...I did my motor/dash/interior swap in an upstate NY warehouse by myself with the cars side-by-side on 8 jackstands, with no air tools. Car show judges may not care...but I do.

If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough. - Mario Andretti

Gotcha.

"Good dude, bad night, right place, wrong time; in the blink of an eye, his whole life changed"
-K. West