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turbo_wagon
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 help me heel/toe« »

I keep hearing about heel/toe shifting. I have a vague concept that it has something to do with rev matching when downshifting, but more than that, I don't know.

I have a 5-speed in my Jetta and if I want to drive faster I just shift faster, but I always have my left foot on the clutch and right foot on the gas.

What am I missing? How can I learn how to do this?

nourdmrolnmt1
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05 Malibu Maxx LS

  »« »

what you described is double clutching

clutch
shift to neutral
de clutch
rev to match rpm when in gear
clutch
shift into gear
declutch

heel toe i dont know about, nor do i really care other than i believe it has to do with being on the brakes and clutching with the same foot.



Quote, originally posted by 2003GLI-NJR »

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 Re: (nourdmrolnmt1) »« »

basically you press the gas and brake at the same time. I will let someone more eliquant explain it better.

Just so you know, heel/toe-ing is very difficult in the MKIV cars due to the pedal placement.. The MKV's have drastically improved on this with the floor mounted gas pedal.



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juice
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  »« »

I'll suggest a good book on the subject, called Performance Driving by Alain Prost (though he didn't write most of it).

Good pictures and instructions. Plus extensive discussions about the racing line, which is even more useful IMO.

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 Re: (nourdmrolnmt1) »« »

Quote, originally posted by nourdmrolnmt1 »
what you described is double clutching

clutch
shift to neutral
de clutch
rev to match rpm when in gear
clutch
shift into gear
declutch

heel toe i dont know about, nor do i really care other than i believe it has to do with being on the brakes and clutching with the same foot.

I never got the point of this, why cant I
be in 5th
clutch in
rev match for 4th
shift to 4th and clutch out



93 MR2 Turbo; 1967 Beetle
JonBabyUK
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 Re: help me heel/toe (kecart) »« »

Quote, originally posted by kecart »
I always have my left foot on the clutch and right foot on the gas.

how can I learn how to do this?

What you need to learn is how to NOT EVAR drive around with your foot on the clutch. Bad, bad, bad habit. Your left foot stays on the floorboard until it's time to shift. You don't sit at stoplights with the clutch depressed, do you? Number one way to burn out a clutch.

Sorry I can't provide much insight on the heel-toe stuff.
Peace, J



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Don't whine at me. I didn't vote for him.
Lankyleo
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 Re: (Jettavr666) »« »

u just position ur right foot across the gas and brakes in one of two ways (slanted to the right / with ur small toes, side of ur foot hitting the gas and rev matching, or slanted to the left \ with ur big toe on the brakes and side of foot,heel clipping the gas. so that u can brake, downshift and rev match all at the same time. i tend to find that the big toe/ball of ur foot on break foot slanted to the left \ usually works best

depending on pedal position, shoe size, and dexterity with ur feet ull figure out which one works best for u. once u get in the habit of doing it, and doin it well itll add to spirited driving fun


Modified by Lankyleo at 12:39 PM 8-11-2005

Modified by Lankyleo at 12:41 PM 8-11-2005



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Obin Robinson
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 Re: help me heel/toe (kecart) »« »

Quote, originally posted by kecart »
I have a 5-speed in my Jetta and if I want to drive faster I just shift faster, but I always have my left foot on the clutch and right foot on the gas.

What am I missing? How can I learn how to do this?

what might just help you is getting a new gas pedal with an extension on it. something like these:

http://store.yahoo.com/ltbmoto....html

i found it nearly impossible to smoothly heel-toe my Scirocco until i installed pedals like those. some vehicles just have the pedals a bit too far apart for some people to smoothly heel-toe.

obin



"We're society's crowbar. They hate us, they never want to acknowledge the dirty jobs they give us to do, but when the job is done they never throw us away - they just slip us back in the toolbox until they need us the next time. And there will always be a next time."-Jim Hooper. Beneath the Visiting Moon: Images of Combat in Southern Africa
Jettavr666
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 Re: help me heel/toe (Obin Robinson) »« »

Quote, originally posted by Obin Robinson »

i found it nearly impossible to smoothly heel-toe my Scirocco until i installed pedals like those. some vehicles just have the pedals a bit too far apart for some people to smoothly heel-toe.

obin

The DBW throttle also makes it next to impossible to do it smoothly.



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 Re: help me heel/toe (JonBabyUK) »« »

Rev-matching + downshifting. AKA "heel - toe" -ing:

This only happens while braking/downshifting/slowing down.

When you down shift with out rev-matching the engine, your RPMs will shoot up about 1k, right?

Example:
You're cruising along in 4th at 2k rpms. You disengage the clutch,downshift (with out revmatching), and then reengage the clutch. Now the tachometer will zoom up to 3k because of the Syncros in the transmission.

Well the idea of rev-matching is while your clutch is disengaged, give the engine some gas to make the engine speed match the RPM's that the engine will be at in the lower gear.

Example:
You're cruising along in 4th at 2k rpms. You disengage the clutch, press the gas so it reaches 3k, then reengage the clutch and you will have a much smoother, and less harful to your transmission shift.

The reason why it's called "heel-toe" is because on some cars, when you downshift and brake, your toes will be on the brake pedal and your heel will be on the gas. Also for people with small feet

For me, I have size 12 shoes, so I just roll my ankle over to touch the gas pedal

I hope this helps



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turbo_wagon
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 Re: help me heel/toe (JonBabyUK) »« »

Quote, originally posted by JonBabyUK »

What you need to learn is how to NOT EVAR drive around with your foot on the clutch

I don't. And I'm neutral if i'm at a light.

Twosont
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 Re: help me heel/toe (kecart) »« »

i find heeltoe to be too difficult in the mkiv jettas. the pedals are too distant. but im only a size 10 sooo
edit: i've got oettinger pedals too

Modified by Twosont at 1:19 PM 8-11-2005



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 Re: help me heel/toe (JonBabyUK) »« »

Quote, originally posted by JonBabyUK »

What you need to learn is how to NOT EVAR drive around with your foot on the clutch. Bad, bad, bad habit. Your left foot stays on the floorboard until it's time to shift. You don't sit at stoplights with the clutch depressed, do you? Number one way to burn out a clutch.

Sorry I can't provide much insight on the heel-toe stuff.
Peace, J

ooops!



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 Re: help me heel/toe (Jettavr666) »« »

Quote, originally posted by Jettavr666 »

The DBW throttle also makes it next to impossible to do it smoothly.

It's not DBW that makes it hard-- it's the granny controls VW & Audi uses-- hit the brake and the ECU cuts all the engine power.

It's possible to heel-toe... it's really toe-toe for me--- on MKIV's. It's just trial and error (foot position) and practice

spdfrek
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 Re: help me heel/toe (kecart) »« »

Quote, originally posted by JonBabyUK »

You don't sit at stoplights with the clutch depressed, do you? Number one way to burn out a clutch.

Quote, originally posted by kecart »

I don't. And I'm neutral if I'm at a light.

I was told when stopped at a light you should always be in gear because if you are hit or something you won't roll into traffic.



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JonBabyUK
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 Re: help me heel/toe (kecart) »« »

Quote, originally posted by kecart »
I don't. And I'm neutral if i'm at a light.

Good deal. Just checkin' cuz in your original post you stated that you drive around with your left foot on the clutch.



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Don't whine at me. I didn't vote for him.
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 Re: help me heel/toe (spdfrek) »« »

Quote, originally posted by spdfrek »
I was told when stopped at a light you should always be in gear because if you are hit or something you won't roll into traffic.

That's why you keep your foot on the brake.



I'm part of the resistance.
Don't whine at me. I didn't vote for him.
passatvr6er
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 Re: help me heel/toe (GT17V) »« »

Quote, originally posted by GT17V »

It's possible to heel-toe... it's really toe-toe for me--- on MKIV's. It's just trial and error (foot position) and practice

I have a mk3 well b4, but same basic pedal design, and its just toe to side foot, i wear a 14 also. The entire heal toe downshift should be done fairly quickly, the gas should only be a blip, but a blip large enough to have matched the revs for the gear you want to go in, and the clutch should move the swiftest of all. brake - blip gas, almost instantly hit clutch then downshift - continue braking - accelerate through the turn. it really is pretty quick, but it can be done rather smooth with practice.
e1_griego
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89 240sx, 95 Miata

  »« »

Someone might want to rehost this since photobucket might cut me off after a while.

I find heel-toe in VW to be difficult in general. I think my 240 has perfect pedal placement, though many times I end up sort of rolling my foot then using my heel since the pedals aren't long enough. But, it works well anyway.

Alex


Modified by e1_griego at 11:36 AM 8-11-2005

whatsacorrado2
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 Re: help me heel/toe (JonBabyUK) »« »

The only positive with having the car in gear at a stop light is if you look in the rearview and see a car not stopping you can move faster to get out of its way.... you wont wear your clutch... you wear the throwout bearing.



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veedub11
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 Re: (e1_griego) »« »

Quote, originally posted by e1_griego »

Someone might want to rehost this since photobucket might cut me off after a while.

I find heel-toe in VW to be difficult in general. I think my 240 has perfect pedal placement, though many times I end up sort of rolling my foot then using my heel since the pedals aren't long enough. But, it works well anyway.

Alex


Yea, can't do that in any car with 13s.



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e1_griego
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 Re: (veedub11) »« »

Quote, originally posted by veedub11 »
Yea, can't do that in any car with 13s.

Nope, you can't

Alex

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 Re: (veedub11) »« »

Quote, originally posted by veedub11 »
Yea, can't do that in any car with 13s.

That's why you do the ankle-roll technique. Trust me, if you have moderately big feet (i.e. not giant Shaq feet) then you're actually at an advantage, because the ankle roll is a bit easier for most people to learn.

It's medium-sized feet that often have the most trouble. We're limited in maneuvering space but not wide enough to just roll to the side.

Modified by AKADriver at 2:28 PM 8-11-2005



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 Re: (e1_griego) »« »

Heel toeing in my rocco was kind of akward at first because of the footwell, it's hard to get the heel in. I just got used to big toe side foot shifting, works just fine for me.

Learning just takes a lot of practice to do properly, it can be frustrating when you mess it up, but once it learn its wonderful.



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 Re: (e1_griego) »« »

Quote, originally posted by e1_griego »

Someone might want to rehost this since photobucket might cut me off after a while.

IM sent

obin



"We're society's crowbar. They hate us, they never want to acknowledge the dirty jobs they give us to do, but when the job is done they never throw us away - they just slip us back in the toolbox until they need us the next time. And there will always be a next time."-Jim Hooper. Beneath the Visiting Moon: Images of Combat in Southern Africa
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 Re: help me heel/toe (Obin Robinson) »« »

Quote, originally posted by Obin Robinson »
what might just help you is getting a new gas pedal with an extension on it. something like these:

I happen to have that EXACT set of pedals for sale for $35 shipped... anyone interested?





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 Re: help me heel/toe (Colorado 16v) »« »

"BEHOLD the INFAMOUS stick shifting (heel-toe) writeup LONG"


http://forums.audiworld.com/s4b6/msgs/40040.phtml

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 Re: (e1_griego) »« »

Quote, originally posted by e1_griego »

Someone might want to rehost this since photobucket might cut me off after a while.

I find heel-toe in VW to be difficult in general. I think my 240 has perfect pedal placement, though many times I end up sort of rolling my foot then using my heel since the pedals aren't long enough. But, it works well anyway.

Alex

Modified by e1_griego at 11:36 AM 8-11-2005

thats pretty cool except no double clutch to neutral. that'll wear your syncros

JonBabyUK
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 Re: (tpr950h) »« »

Nevermind...I stand corrected.

Modified by JonBabyUK at 12:58 PM 8-11-2005



I'm part of the resistance.
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GT17V
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  »« »

the purpose of double clutch not to grind the tranny. Before synchros, people had to double clutch
Obin Robinson
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 Re: help me heel/toe (Colorado 16v) »« »

Quote, originally posted by Colorado 16v »

I happen to have that EXACT set of pedals for sale for $35 shipped... anyone interested?


that's a really good price for them too. i wish i had a car i could use them in still or i'd take you up on that offer.

obin



"We're society's crowbar. They hate us, they never want to acknowledge the dirty jobs they give us to do, but when the job is done they never throw us away - they just slip us back in the toolbox until they need us the next time. And there will always be a next time."-Jim Hooper. Beneath the Visiting Moon: Images of Combat in Southern Africa
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 Re: (JonBabyUK) »« »

If his car is stock it surely has synchros. Double clutching would help extend the life of the synchros by spinning up the layshaft during deceleration, otherwise if the clutch was in the whole time the layshaft would slowdown and the synchros would have to do more work. Double clutching would do nothing during acceleration, unless he took forever before shifting into gear.



-Dan
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veedub11
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 Re: help me heel/toe (JonBabyUK) »« »

Quote, originally posted by JonBabyUK »

What you need to learn is how to NOT EVAR drive around with your foot on the clutch. Bad, bad, bad habit. Your left foot stays on the floorboard until it's time to shift. You don't sit at stoplights with the clutch depressed, do you? Number one way to burn out a clutch.

Sorry I can't provide much insight on the heel-toe stuff.
Peace, J

Man, now you got me all paranoid that my clutch is slipping!



-Adán

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GTIfreak
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 Re: (jeremy80l) »« »

Quote, originally posted by jeremy80l »

I never got the point of this, why cant I
be in 5th
clutch in
rev match for 4th
shift to 4th and clutch out

Because without braking you'll end up in a ditch or a marshall stand.



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a529612
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. .

 Re: (GTIfreak) »« »

MT tutorial videos collection:

http://www.standardshift.com/videos.html

Heel toe demo in M5:
http://video.google.com/videop...56591

Modified by a529612 at 4:26 PM 6-1-2006

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