I'm amazed at how little timing pull APR exhibits.

Dave

I like how APR doesnt pull as much timing compared to the Revo. Just goes to show you how much more time and effort is put into the software.

Quote, originally posted by im_a_local »

looks good. timing looks great, if cyl 1 didn't pull that much timing (still not a lot) than I would love to see how a leaner mixture up top would do.

Lol, not a lot at all.

Look at my REVO logs if you want to see a leaner mixture up top

Dave

Doing 3rd gear pulls.

Dave

Yes, I already told you that in your own thread.

Dave

APR, no question.

Dave

Dave wait untill you get the stage 2 file im running the TQ is crazy if your ever around westchester n.y. LMK ill take you for a ride no logs needed just look at my exhaust tips Bob.G

The drive to Salisbury Plains is shorter, and I'd rather run the file on my car

Thanks for the offer tho.

Dave

So when are you runnin GIAC for comparison?

EDIT: BTW, like all the research you're doing, been following the REVO thread...

Probably due to differences in intake & exhaust runner lengths. I don't think it's an issue. 1.8ts exhibited the same thing too.

Dave

Never said they weren't.

Quote, originally posted by VWAUDITECH »

For instance (hypothetical #'s here),brand X chip can run 15 deg.timing and have 0 "CF",where brand Y can run 19 deg. timing and have "4 CF".........BUT GUESS what?In the end both will be running as much timing as conditions will allow,if Y is pulling out 4 deg. timing it ends up @15 DEG. which is the same as brand X is running. Over time/driving cycles,the ECU WILL recognise,ambient temp/octane being used/driving style/comditions and will configure its own map according to these factors.

Yes and No. You're assuming that a car showing 2-3 CFs will run the same overall timing as a car running 6-7 CFs. This is not necessarily the case.

Taken from one of the bosch books (credit goes to Zemun2)

As you can see from my APR timing log, Knock was detected, but immediately, CFs drop progressively, indicating that timing is gradually being added by the ECU. With my REVO logs, knock is detected, timing is pulled, and remains pulled for greater duration of the RPM band until it is eventually added. Don't believe me? Look on the REVO graph at the curves under 4 CFs. The CFs drop fairly quickly and timing is added, just like the APR graphs above. However, when greater knock is detected, and greater timing is pulled, the ECU doesn't even try to add timing, until a greater duration afterwards.

Quote, originally posted by VWAUDITECH »

This has always been a feature of BOSCH ECU's from even the EARLIEST K-JETRONIC DAYS.......this even had a adaptive timing maps using knock sensors........in the 80's!!!

As I mentioned, response is important, and having greater timing pull on a more aggressive timing map doesn't mean that it is equivalent or even better than a timing map that is better suited to the capabilities of the engine and shows minimal pull.

Quote, originally posted by VWAUDITECH »

It is designed like this due to differing regions/octane/driving styles,etc........so EVEN IF you run 87 octane the car will not blow!!!! It won't make power,but it is safeguarded by ECU adaptation regardless of SW...........I hope that is easy to understand....... In fact DIFFERENT DAYS will run different timing due to outside factors.....

I hope you certainly don't recommend putting in 87 octane to your REVO customers who own a 93 chip. The car definetely needs to be set back into stock mode if you need to run 87.

BTW, why do you think I included temperature readings? It is common knowledge that the ECUs adapt to different environmental conditions.

Dave

Actually, the temp variance is very little. Can you honestly tell me that 2 degrees Fahrenheit actually makes a difference after the air is heated up by the turbo? Also, I took the exact same roads, ran the trials in the exact same area, ran the same #s of logs and picked the same run from the same exactly strip of road that I used. Load is the same as I took the same driver and used the same roads. The gas in this area hasn't switched over to "winter blend" yet, so I doubt there has been much change in 93 octane in this area over the past week.

Here's the log of the drive up to the staging area from both days (REVO & APR day)

The only discrepancy is that on the REVO day, there was a subaru in front of me, so I wasn't pushing it as hard . . . . you can see at the last peak where the subaru slowed down. The APR log was started earlier, and is slightly shifted by 50 units and was pushed harder because there were no cars in front of me. This is a winding fun road btw.

APR log

REVO log

Quote, originally posted by VWAUDITECH[/quote »

I CAN tell you that when a stock car runs a 14.9R@92 and a REVO car runs 13.9 @100+something GOOD is happening.....no science there..........just COMMON SENSE.

Yeah . . . good driver

Dave

Modified by crew217 at 2:54 AM 10-14-2006

Im really still amazed at how much timing pull is between Revo and APR. APR has a lower boost request compared to Revo, but they're curve is more consistant.

Nice work, again, Dave.

Those adjustments don't as much for you as you may think.

Quote, originally posted by VWAUDITECH »

That is why these posts are SO ridiculous.Crew is saying this or that,yete never took the time to actually tune the car,whether it is adjusting timing,fuel,boost,etc.........IF you are so worried about "CF" then WHY did he not lower the boost levels/timing/AFR levels? It makes no sense,that is why I lend no credibility to any of this "logging"........I mean ANYBODY can log a car,and learn Excel........why don't some learn to actually tune/adjust their setup with the awesome tools REVO has provided........??

Excuse me? Please don't state what you think I have or have not done. You obviously don't know me and are making terrible assumptions about my experience with REVO. I've had my SPS since June (one of the few lucky ones who got SPS plus early) of this year and have done logging on B/T/F = 6/6/9, 6/5/9, 7/5/9, 7/6/9, 6/3/9 and 8/5/9. The "best" setting was the REVO EU recommended setting of 6/5/9. I took the time to log and check every setting I used, and I was still seeing significant CFs when running the 91 octane REVO program (6/3/9) on 93 octane. However, with those programs, I only logged boost and timing . . . not A/F or EGTs as REVO made it very specific not to deviate from the fueling setting of 9.

Quote, originally posted by VWAUDITECH »

Tuning timing and AFR curves from scratch is one thing,but adjusting REVO is so EASY......

Adjusting it is easy . . . . actually tuning it to the car isn't.

Dave

Sunoco 93 at the busiest station in town is not "awful". Maybe it is biased to APR

You can't compare gas from different countries and say that it is equivalent to US gas.

Quote, originally posted by VWAUDITECH »

I made that post in the APR thread because I am being facetious,you guys THINK that you are so intelligent that you can outthink the cars ECU and what it is doing.........EVEN the APR car pulling that much timing has not busted a ringland,melted a piston..........BECAUSE THE CAR WILL SELF CORRECT FASTER THAN YOU CAN CONJUR UP A THOUGHT. Here it is GIAC,APR,REVO will ALL show timing pull because conditions are NOT always 100% perfect!!# I mean do you REALLY think YOUR logs have ANYTHING to do in the REAL WORLD??Maybe it might apply to a guy that lives next door to you with the EXACT same setup,driving onm the EXACT same roads,on the EXACT same day using EXACTLY the same gas!! I mean what does your logs have to do with say someone in Hawaii running different fuel in a different climate You guys are giving yourselves WAY to much credit for your"findings"whiuch are nothing more than "opinions".

Ignorance is bliss. Now go crank up that timing setting to "9" and fill up with some 87 octane

Dave

In your opinion, do any of these modern day, stage 1 tunings (GIAC, REVO, APR, ETC...) present any increased risks of premature wear or failure to a DSG trans?

Heh, and here we were convinced that APR representatives were some of the most worst spoken members of this forum.

If you'd back away from your nonsense about 1/4 mile times (yes I read car mags and typically it's the same well trained driver making those runs not random VW owner) and look at the big picture I think you'd get what many of us here get.

And that is which do you think is the better program? The one from the company who's chip requests an amount of timing that requires little CF or the one froma company that requests an amount that requires A LOT of correction? Which one do you think shows the people making the software know the abilities of the engine and management and which does not? Which one do you think is more concerned with the longevity of the engine vs which just wants the power crown? And, what does that say about their ethics and taking it further down the road their support?

Most of us here aren't competitive 1/4 mile racers so a few (and this number has been shown to be VERY smal) hp difference isn't a big deal if it means the engine isn't pulling as much timing, having EGTs approach the limits of that the manufacturer recommends and gives better bottom end power.

Really, what i see in this comparison is the difference between a tuner with intamite knowledge of the new engine management system and a sense of responsibility to not go far out of bounds to get the power they want. And, a company with lesser knowledge offering the same product but, not as well thought out or not well execued.

I was very impressed at how little timing pull I had on the 91 octane program, but also surprised to see how little pull I had with 91 octane in the tank and running the 93 octane file.

Maybe not but, Borg Warner does and it's been documented. At least I'm willing to open my mind and think that the manufacturer knows more than I. You on the other hand don't know more than the manufacturer no matter how much you flap your lips. Or rather the orifice your words are coming out of which I'm pretty sure is not your mouth.

Quote, originally posted by VWAUDITECH »

2.You can adjust timing on REVO. There is your intimate knowledge.

Because clearly it does something:
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=2877335

Just because you had a one night stand with the revo website does not give you intimate knowledge of something, I think the term you were looking for is karnal knowledge.

No problem . . . . it was actually your logs that motivated me to try out APR, and it's amazing how well our logs seem to match.

Dave