From what I can tell there are currently three readily available rear bars for this car. Autotech, H&R and Neuspeed. I called Dick Shine and SRS is working on a bar for the GTI but will be awhile before they have one available.

I had always like the Shine Racing Bars, Street Springs and custom dampers as they were the most drivable on the street. They never extracted the last 5% from the car for the track, but were more livable for daily driving by maintaining suspension travel and maintaining caster and camber so tires wore like factory spec suspension.

The Neuspeed calls theirs "Racing" and appears to have two setting points. The H&R and Autotech both seem to currently have three points.
All three now appear to be using the factory pickup points.
I did note the threads about the H&R mounts snapping.

So the question is, if I want poise and neutrality in 90% of my daily driving, and the stock Sport Suspension is missing the mark. Which bar would folks suggest and at what setting.

Would love to hear about throttle steer and ESP influence in the equation as well.

http://i98.photobucket.com/alb...8.jpg
http://i98.photobucket.com/alb...s.jpg
http://i98.photobucket.com/alb...9.jpg

The NeuSpeed is a more aggressive rate bar at it's max setting.
N=Neuspeed, H=H&R, AT=Autotech

So from a rotational torsion standpoint (Lets call this anti roll rate factor)

H and AT in hole one is slightly less that the factory "Sport bar"
H and AT in hole 2 is about = to Factory Sport bar
H and AT in hole 2 and N in hole 1 is sort-of 1 step up from the Sport Bar
N in Hole 3 is sort-of 2 steps up from the Sport Bar (most aggressive)

N and AT are lighter than H thus less unsprung weight (good no matter how you look at it.

Inquired about the AT mounts cracking and he said that this had been addressed. That the bushings were manufactured out of spec (two large) causing this issue. It has been addressed and the new bushings will be in stock by the end of the week.

Please note that I have used the terms "slightly", "about" and "sort-of" to describe these differences. Without any factual measurements I am deliberately using vague and ambiguous terms open to subjective interpretation.

Would like some input and thoughts

AT = $210
HR = $195
N = $235

If you're a bargain hunter, get HR. If you're a aggressive driver, get N. From what other people have said, AT should be avoided.

Rest in Peace -- 2006 Audi A3 2.0T DSG

Quote, originally posted by Golgo-13 »

Noob question, but what does the sway bar do? Educate, don't hate.

Check out the 2nd to last post in this thread. Good synopsis.

http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=2908416

Rest in Peace -- 2006 Audi A3 2.0T DSG

Quote, originally posted by Golgo-13 »

Noob question, but what does the sway bar do? Educate, don't hate.

Think of it as a spring that connects the two rear wheels. As you corner the car rolls to the outside of the turn. This lifts the inside rear wheel. Since the bar is attached to the wheels axis point is twists the bar down. The bar then transmits the downward rotational force to the other wheel forcing it down as well, reducing the amount of roll. Since the car is theoritically flatter there is more even traction on the front wheels, reducing under-steer. I am oversimplifying this quite a bit, but that is the general idea.

Which of the three holes are you using on the H&R bar?

I have always viewed swaybars as band-aids for to soft of springs and an under-damped suspension. I really only want to turn up the factory sport bar 1 notch.

So all in, I decided to pick up the H&R bar. It is heavier, but I could stand to loose 10lbs anyway. It is not really added unsprung weight since the bar is attached primarily to the car. At the end of the day, I like the fact that H&R supplies no maintenance bushings. These bars all use the factory pick up points and none of the silly add on brackets.

Get FireVortex

Not really.

Springs affect the wheels individually, in all situations. Reducing body roll with springs is a side effect of increasing the force required to move the suspension *at all*. Swaybars have no effect on straight-line ride feel since as long as both wheels move together (e.g. over expansion joints in pavement) the bar has no torsion. Swaybars come into effect *only* with a *differential* movement between left and right wheels (one extending/one compressing), and target body roll specifically.

There's a place for both, but one is not neccessarily a band-aid, or replacement, for the other.

Get FireVortex

As long as the wheels "move together", right? What about hitting a pothole, or going over a seam between lanes, or rythmic dips on one side of the lane only, or the cobblestones like they have in the entranceway to my neighborhood? What about the feel of the back seat passenger in all these situations? That's what I haven't heard anyone address yet.

Personally, I really do want to get a RSB, but I already have to put up with a wife and kid who ask "Why is your car so loud and bumpy?"

Right but... generally speaking the more torsion is applied to the bar, the more force it exerts back in the opposite direction (basic restorative force....). In practice, small deflections (cobblestones, expansion joints) will have small/negligible consequences, and large deflections (body roll around a corner) will have larger consequences (body roll being countered). If you hit a pothole significant enough that a swaybar would have a noticeable effect, you have bigger problems, like a flat or a bent rim, or a realignment.

Get FireVortex

Thank you all for your thoughts and feedback.

exactly. I got mine from ecs. I love it.

everyone NEEDS a rsb.

The Volvo C30 Thread

Which set of holes did you use for the endlinks on the H&Rs?

The difference and improvement was significant. The car feels better in every way IMO. So good infact, that I have lagged for months on installing my H&R coilovers that have been sitting in my garage. Man i really need to install those. Once I install the coilovers I am gonna move the bar to the stiffest setting...Id like to see how it feels.

SOLD:
1996 Audi A4 Quattro 2.8M Brilliant Black - MODIFIED

I had base suspension. I went with the aggressive setting. go for it. you will not regret it. my gf wants the bar for her A3, it's not too stiff.

The Volvo C30 Thread

Quote, originally posted by kharma »

I'm holding out for Shine

Shine is overrated IMO. Why would you wait for someone who has never made a swaybar in the traditional sense?

Dave

The no-maintenance bushings cause the bar to rust pretty badly after one winter.

Dave

To Late... I put it on yesterday morning. I did in fact give the whole bar a light scuffing with synthetic sandpaper and then sprayed the whole thing with rustoleum gloss black appliance enamel (with the exception of where the bushing ride. There I applied a very thin coat of brake shoe grease (the sticking stuff you put on the slides that never comes off). I used the outer (softer setting) holes.

After I had the OE sport bar in my hands it occurred to me that I could have tried drilling holes about 1.5 inches back from the factory location. That would have theoretically stiffened it up a bit ! ?
So easy to take on and off, may just give it a try in the spring when there is an AautoX to try it at. I really want to find somewhere I can play with stability control both on and off to see how the H&R bar changes the balance and rotation characteristics of the car. Would hate to be surprised in a corner on the street or on a hwy ramp !

Eh the stock bar is so weak and flimsy that I don't think you would have seen a huge difference.

I had the H&R a long time ago . . . . then I moved up to the Neuspeed. No regrets, although one of the tack-welded nuts on the subframe did shear off and caused the bar to loosen up. A new bolt fixed that problem.

Dave

They're right down the street... I've been more than pleased by his solutions for other platforms... I have my reasons

Dick Shine is not over or under rated. He has a design and tuning philosophy that some subscribe to. I to happen to be one of them. His solutions don't work in all situations and for all drivers and some just don't agree, but that is why we live in the country we do, the freedom to choose. By the same token Microsoft, Mac and Unix platforms all have their strengths and weaknesses. No one platform is the perfect fit for all users or tasks. We choose the solutions that work best for the situation we are preparing to tackle.

I happen to like SRS product because it does most things very well most of the time. There are tracks and events that I would wholeheartedly disagree with Dick's no or low front sway bar, but I run into those less often and prefer SRS's solution on the street. The new platforms are for the most part 4 wheel independent now. SRS had a very valid reason for the bar systems they developed for the torsion beams. They worked well and were very predictable, reliable and maint free. I am curious how he will address things with the beam gone. I wont loose site of the fact that you are only as good as what you deliver, not what you have done! (That's called history)

SRS is not overrated in my mind... I really like his stuff and that is my opinion of which I am entitled. I will get on a soap box and tell my fellow forum members the strengths I see in his products in my applications (and it's weaknesses) but I don't want to disparage any manufacturers products or philosophy. I might suggest that rather than saying SRS is "over rated", commentary on what other options exist and why others like them would be more productive and informative.
I loved your APR and REVO logs and your posts were ultimately why I chose APR. I would love to see a comparison between the H&R and Neuspeed bars with Skid-pad and slalom tests but that will have to wait for European Car. Your Vogtland review was very helpful and informative as well, and actually help contribute to my choosing to stay with my OE sport springs and a set of Koni's for what I want the car to do.

In the tone of the day though... I am thankful and value your input and participation in this group.

Modified by wchp at 9:55 AM 11-23-2006

Yep, I know what Dick has done for the forum. I actually subscribe to some of his tuning philosophy (parallel control arms, moderate to no lowering, higher spring rates & etc). Then you get certain parts of his philosophy that is completely off-the-wall (i.e. redline will kill your tranny) and several bad dealings I've read about on other forums with them not standing behind their product / install. I used to run a Shine SRS RSB on my B5. Didn't like it much. Went neuspeed 28mm and it was signficantly better. My point being with the RSB is that manufacturing IRS-style swaybars are much different than his former torsion-beam design (piece of pipe + welded fittings). Just look at a few of the issues autotech has had with their MKV design.

Quote, originally posted by wchp »

I loved your APR and REVO logs and your posts were ultimately why I chose APR. I would love to see a comparison between the H&R and Neuspeed bars with Skid-pad and slalom tests but that will have to wait for European Car. Your Vogtland review was very helpful and informative as well, and actually help contribute to my choosing to stay with my OE sport springs and a set of Koni's for what I want the car to do. In the tone of the day though... I am thankful and value your input and participation in this group.

Thanks. If you didn't see, I was probably the first person on the forum to get the H&R sway.
http://forums.fourtitude.com/zerothread?id=2190448

Ran it for about a year until I switched this fall to the Neuspeed RSB.

The neuspeed is much better. The softest setting is stiffer than the H&R and definitely helps the car come around easily. From the experience of others, the stiffest setting is too harsh to be used on the street but is fantastic on the track. I have yet to try it out.

Stock is 20.5mm hollow, H&R is 22mm solid, Neuspeed is 25mm hollow but uses thicker wall tubing than Autotech.

However, the area where the Neuspeed shines is in the bushing. The stock bushing width is 3cm whereas the Neuspeed is 4.5cms. The poly bushing is also harder than the H&R bushing or stock rubber. The greater contact area + stiffer bushing = more response and greater effect translated to the wheels. As shown, I have the earlier Neuspeed bar with the aftermarket brackets. The new Neuspeed bars reuse the stock bracket and include a modified poly bushing.

In the end, the extra cost of switching to Neuspeed from H&R was worth it to me.

Dave

http://i98.photobucket.com/alb...8.jpg
http://i98.photobucket.com/alb...s.jpg
http://i98.photobucket.com/alb...9.jpg

http://i98.photobucket.com/alb...8.jpg
http://i98.photobucket.com/alb...s.jpg
http://i98.photobucket.com/alb...9.jpg

On a previous car I had taken the tip of a dremel tool and scored a v shaped grove (1/4 inch deep and wide) around the inside middle of the bushing. I then fitted the bushing to the car with the OE clamp sans the bar. Drilled a 1/8 diameter hole through the clamp and bushing which came out in the middle of the grove. I then tapped the clamp and threaded in a grease fitting nipple. Then when I wanted to lube the bushing I just put a grease gun on the fitting a pumped until it came out the edges. The grove kind of acted as a reservoir and I didn't have to remove the clamp and bushing to add more grease.