That's a cool pic, the kids seem to be (and probably are) waving to the engine as opposed to the engineers.

ban OneBadBug!

i'm 17 and haven't done anything anwhere close to that...i have some catching up to do

Steam Power FAQ

1. Steam cars run on water.

No. - Steam engines are (external combustion, Rankine cycle) heat engines. Water is the working fluid. They convert heat into mechanical work. The internal combustion Otto cycle engine in your car does the same. Both the internal and external combustion engines burn fuel producing heat. The heat of that combustion raises the temperature of a working fluid in a confined space producing an increase in pressure. This pressure exerts force against a piston in the engine. The piston moves turning the crank, turning the wheels moving your car along.

2. Steam cars are likely to explode.

No. - They are less likely to explode as they use less volatile fuels. Modern steam generators for automotive use are constructed in such a way that in case of a rupture they have vary little water at the saturation point, preventing an explosion. The Stanley boiler, a vertical fire tube design unlike modern generators have large amounts of water at saturation temperature, was tested at the factory by forced failure. The failure occurred in the fire tube expansion joints which acted as a safely valve, safely releasing the pressure preventing an explosion. Fred Marriott set a world speed record of 127.66 mph in 1906 in a specially built Stanley. In the following year he crashed while trying to improve on his record. It was estimated that he was traveling at 180 mph at the time of the crash. The boiler did not explode!! And Fred luckily lived to tell the tail.

3. Steam is outdated and old fashioned.

No. - Most of our electricity today comes from steam engines. In atomic power plants, steam is generated by the reactor and drives a steam engine.

4. The internal combustion engine is used today because it is more efficient.

No. - At the start of automotive development the steam engine had the advantage. It was more powerful and easier to operate as it had no transmission or clutch. Then the electric starter was invented. The internal combustion engine was now a ‘get in and go machine’. Steam cars of the time needed a lot of preparation that required about 30 minutes or more before they could be driven. On condensing models lubricating oil mixed with the water which then had to be changed every other day or so. Very messy. Water also would get into the crank case of the engine requiring monthly oil changes. Both types of automobiles at the time where obtaining 8 to 13 miles per gallon of fuel. And the steam car used less expensive fuel oil or kerosene. Today modern steam power generating plants obtain 40% to 60% efficiency. The I.C. automobile engine only gets 25% efficiency.

5. Steam automobiles can use a variety of fuels.

Yes. - Steam is generated in a boiler separate from the engine. The combustion chamber in the boiler can be designed to accommodate any combustible substance. The fuel is burned clean producing no more pollution then a household gas heater. In an automobile the fuel would have to be restricted to one that can be transported and fed automatically. Liquid fuels are the best choice as propane or natural gas are stored under pressure and are vented in case of over pressure creating a danger of explosion. A Stanley, whose pilot had been converted to use propane exploded when vented gas from a spare propane tank carried under the passenger seat ignited killing the driver and injuring the passengers. Possible liquid fuels are kerosene, fuel oil, diesel fuel, and soybean distillate fuel. A properly designed burner system could burn a variety of fuels by using an oxygen sensor in the exhaust to control the proper fuel air mixture.

6. Steam cars of the past outperform I.C. cars.

Yes. - The Doble cars produced between 1923 and 1930 weighing over 4000 lb. could accelerate from 0 to 75 mph in under 5 seconds. and could maintain a top speed of over 95 mph. The early Stanley’s produced so much torque that they lifted the front wheels off the ground when the throttle was opened too quickly.

7. Steam cars are unreliable and require a lot of maintenance.

No. - A Doble E14 produced in 1923 was driven over 600,000 miles requiring only normal maintenance. The Doble cars required no more maintenance then their internal combustion counter parts. Other Doble’s are known to have traveled over 200,000 miles having only routine oil and tire changes.

8. The Doble Steam Motor Company failed because of engineering design problems.

No. - The company failed because of lack of funding. This is a sad story for the steam car company that could have been. The lack of funding was brought about by one Mr. Edwin M. Daugherty, the Commissioner of Corporations in Los Angeles California. Mr. Edwin M. Daugherty refused to issue the permit necessary for the sail of additional stock until 50 cars had been produced and had given satisfactory service in the hands of owners for six months. This was all very peculiar as Mr. Edwin M. Daugherty had received the independent report concerning the excellence of the car under test. Also the Cooperate Securities Act designed to prevent fraud in the sail of stock provided that if the Commissioner (Mr. Edwin M. Daugherty) upon examination of the application finds, that the proposed plan of business of the applicant is not unfair, unjust or inequitable, that it intends to fairly and honestly transact business, that the Commissioner (Mr. Edwin M. Daugherty) shall issue to the applicant a permit . It was reported that Mr. Edwin M. Daugherty repeatedly stated that he did not question the integrity of the officers of the company, and at one time gave them a letter as follows: Pursuant to your inquiry regarding the Doble Steam Motors Corporation, beg to advise that there is nothing in our files or that has come to my attention, personally, which reflects upon the integrity of the promoters of the Doble Steam Car or the Company.


Modified by vwlarry at 7:20 AM 6-28-2007

“To one who has faith, no explanation is necessary. To one without faith, no explanation is possible.” - St. Thomas Aquinas

http://www.steamcar.net/lsr.html

“To one who has faith, no explanation is necessary. To one without faith, no explanation is possible.” - St. Thomas Aquinas

Great read. I'm about to go and read it again

///BrooklynAutoRennen

Two eye-popping factoids...the E-Series Dobles have been timed at 0-75mph in five seconds, and the engine in these cars produces (are you ready?) 1,000 lb/ft of torque from ZERO rpm! This is a 5,000-pound automobile from EIGHTY years ago!!! You gotta read this article to get the full impact.

I found this photo of the subject car of the article, taken at Amelia Island Concours this year. Beautiful:

They also mention Jay Leno's Doble.

It's interesting. It seems, today, that all roads, automotive-speaking, lead to Jay Leno. Whattaguy.

Snapshot of the Luckiest Automobile Enthusiast On Earth in his Doble:

Modified by vwlarry at 4:51 AM 11-30-2007

“To one who has faith, no explanation is necessary. To one without faith, no explanation is possible.” - St. Thomas Aquinas

“To one who has faith, no explanation is necessary. To one without faith, no explanation is possible.” - St. Thomas Aquinas

A more prevalent problem with would be that the alcohol has a significantly lower boiling temp then water, think about your typical distillation column. You'd probably get mostly alcohol initially then water. The alcohol itself isn't being burned, you'd hope, and as long as initial temperatures on the output were low then the alcohol might condense during exhaust. (the addition of a coil would assure this).

I hope that I'm understanding the engine properly and I'm making a few assumptions.

Quote, originally posted by felixthecat, on why his genitalia are important to him »

Good god, I do have a wang and I just couldn't trade it in for a Prius.

Dont see why not. Heck, I just made a Cleveland steamer about 5 minutes ago.

Oh, dude, that was really unworthy.

Quote, originally posted by felixthecat, on why his genitalia are important to him »

Good god, I do have a wang and I just couldn't trade it in for a Prius.

“To one who has faith, no explanation is necessary. To one without faith, no explanation is possible.” - St. Thomas Aquinas

Stanley Steamer Start Up

Modified by jay:tuck at 1:04 PM 11-30-2007

No only the last two or three posts, excluding your own, have lost the plot. Perhaps the powers that be can clean them up (or out) and things will return to normal.

I for one would like to know if there is combustion at all in the expansion chamber if something other then water, the alcohol mentioned above, is used. What sort of temperatures are encountered at the piston? Does friction drive temps up to the point of ignition if volatiles are used?

Quote, originally posted by jay:tuck »

I watched the latest film on JayLenosGarage.com last night. He went through the entire process of starting a Stanley Steamer. It's amazing how lengthy, complex and dangerous it is, but fascinating to see it move and hear it chuff-chuff along. Stanley Steamer Start Up Modified by jay:tuck at 1:04 PM 11-30-2007

An interesting thing about the Stanley cars compared with Dobles is the Dobles comparative simplicity of operation, not to mention the technological prowess of the Doble versus the Stanleys. Abner Doble, while a student at MIT in 1914, in fact, visited the Stanley Brothers in Massachusetts with his proposal for the flash-boiler/condenser system that he eventually patented for use in his cars. The Stanley brothers, then on top of the hill in steam cars, rejected his ideas, to their detriment. The latter-day Dobles, like these E-series cars, are quick-starting and relatively easy to master (steam-pressure at ready-stage in 90 seconds from cold-start, automatic regulation of boiler pressure, etc etc), while a typical Stanley steam car required much dedication from its owner in terms of both time (long startup time), as well as in investing much time and effort in the mastery of the technical and operative aspects of a Stanley. Stanleys were "old school" steam cars and had much in common with the locomotives of the time. Doble advanced the game substantially, but at a cost.

“To one who has faith, no explanation is necessary. To one without faith, no explanation is possible.” - St. Thomas Aquinas

p.s. its threads like this that keep TCL in true form

Modified by davedave at 12:10 PM 11-30-2007

I've been a fan of steam locomotives my whole life...

Check out this video taken earlier this year in Vancouver, WA...turn up the sound if you can!

http://youtube.com/watch?v=wkuBXVPjBvg

Modified by Ken Baker at 12:13 PM 11-30-2007

I never thought anyone would be interested in steam power in the Lounge, and this thread would go nowhere. Instead, it's turned into one of my faves.

I have to take a moment to thank my late dad for "priming the pump" of my love of steam-powered machines. He was a farmer for many years before moving to the city, and when he was growing up in the thirties and forties, he worked every summer around steam-powered tractors and threshing machines at harvest time. In later years, he invited me to go with him to various steam-power festivals in Indiana and Illinois (they're very popular and I recommend them to anyone here). At these festivals, which are nothing more than a joyful celebration of American work-ethic and technical/inventive genius via steam-powered farm machinery, they have "live" demonstrations of the huge and powerful steam tractors, which, with HUGE leather belts driving equally HUGE pulleys, power the threshers which separate grain from chaff, etc., along with many other fascinating and surprising demonstrations of "old school" technology from decades ago. I still attend a local festival here in Delaware in the summer. My dad is gone now, but he taught me lots of pretty cool stuff, including a love and respect for the people and machines of the past.

A fairly typical steam tractor of long ago. Seeing a picture of one is not enough; you must SEE and HEAR and SMELL these things under power. They're amazing.

Modified by vwlarry at 7:34 AM 12-1-2007

“To one who has faith, no explanation is necessary. To one without faith, no explanation is possible.” - St. Thomas Aquinas

http://www.crabfu.com/steamtoys/

(be sure to check the videos for each model, especially the R/C Steam LocoCentipede video)

It's no wonder that generations and generations of young boys grew up wanting to be locomotive engineers...

There is an antique tractor threshing bee every summer not far from me. It really is quite an experience to watch those tractors at work!

He really enjoyed that thing, and so did I. My son, when he was small, would always go for that thing immediately after we would arrive and Grandpa's house for a visit. "Make it go!" he'd say. I hope I've passed some of that passion for steam on to my boy.

“To one who has faith, no explanation is necessary. To one without faith, no explanation is possible.” - St. Thomas Aquinas

That video gave me serious goosebumps. That whistle!

GTI VR6

Quote, originally posted by vwlarry »

I never thought anyone would be interested in steam power in the Lounge, and this thread would go nowhere. Instead, it's turned into one of my faves.

Alright, who's in for starting a Steam Lounge?

That reminds me of something. The other day, I was explaining to a friend how the term "balls out" was in no way a lewd reference. He just looked at me funny. Hey, not everyone is a steam junkie.

GTI VR6

Quote, originally posted by vwlarry »

Here is an interesting list of steam-power FAQs (including some neat Doble tidbits) I found that was worth posting for anyone interested in this type of engine. If you weren't interested, you wouldn't be reading this, eh?

rest of it taken out of the "quote" to make it easier to answer.

Steam Power FAQ

1. Steam cars run on water.

No. - Steam engines are (external combustion, Rankine cycle) heat engines. Water is the working fluid. They convert heat into mechanical work. The internal combustion Otto cycle engine in your car does the same. Both the internal and external combustion engines burn fuel producing heat. The heat of that combustion raises the temperature of a working fluid in a confined space producing an increase in pressure. This pressure exerts force against a piston in the engine. The piston moves turning the crank, turning the wheels moving your car along.

Counterpoint: No argument here ... that's the way they work.

2. Steam cars are likely to explode.

No. - They are less likely to explode as they use less volatile fuels. Modern steam generators for automotive use are constructed in such a way that in case of a rupture they have vary little water at the saturation point, preventing an explosion. The Stanley boiler, a vertical fire tube design unlike modern generators have large amounts of water at saturation temperature, was tested at the factory by forced failure. The failure occurred in the fire tube expansion joints which acted as a safely valve, safely releasing the pressure preventing an explosion. Fred Marriott set a world speed record of 127.66 mph in 1906 in a specially built Stanley. In the following year he crashed while trying to improve on his record. It was estimated that he was traveling at 180 mph at the time of the crash. The boiler did not explode!! And Fred luckily lived to tell the tail.

Counterpoint: Flash boilers indeed have much less explosion risk than fire-tube boilers, and they heat up much faster - although one questions in a society seemingly unwilling to put up with the Rudolf Diesel Memorial moment of silence (glow plug delay) of a few seconds, whether the minute before starting a steam engine would be accepted. And, the common fuels for diesel engines share the advantage of being less volatile than gasoline (or natural gas or propane or hydrogen, for that matter).

3. Steam is outdated and old fashioned.

No. - Most of our electricity today comes from steam engines. In atomic power plants, steam is generated by the reactor and drives a steam engine.

Counterpoint: Correct, but there is little in common between a utility-power-generation steam engine which uses several intermediate stages of reheat, boiler feedwater pre-heat, etc in order to eke out as much efficiency as possible, and the simple-cycle engines seen in automotive applications.

4. The internal combustion engine is used today because it is more efficient.

No. - At the start of automotive development the steam engine had the advantage. It was more powerful and easier to operate as it had no transmission or clutch. Then the electric starter was invented. The internal combustion engine was now a ‘get in and go machine’. Steam cars of the time needed a lot of preparation that required about 30 minutes or more before they could be driven. On condensing models lubricating oil mixed with the water which then had to be changed every other day or so. Very messy. Water also would get into the crank case of the engine requiring monthly oil changes. Both types of automobiles at the time where obtaining 8 to 13 miles per gallon of fuel. And the steam car used less expensive fuel oil or kerosene. Today modern steam power generating plants obtain 40% to 60% efficiency. The I.C. automobile engine only gets 25% efficiency.

Counterpoint: Achieving decent efficiency in a steam engine requires multiple stages of expansion and re-heat, and heat recovery from the boiler exhaust, which requires large heat exchangers that are not practical in an automotive application. The efficiency of the simple Rankine cycle (feedpump ... boiler ... expander ... condenser ... etc.) can be readily calculated from the steam tables in a thermodynamics textbook. For temperatures and pressures that can practically be achieved in the real world, and accounting for heat losses at the boiler exhaust and realistic hot-side and cold-side temperatures and realistic expander efficiency ... the efficiency of the Rankine cycle is poor compared to that of even a decent gasoline engine, and abysmal compared to a modern diesel engine. Since this low efficiency is pretty much dictated by the physics of the process, there is little hope in improving it by much. 8 to 13 mpg for a normal automobile might have been acceptable in the 1920's, but it isn't today.

5. Steam automobiles can use a variety of fuels.

Yes. - Steam is generated in a boiler separate from the engine. The combustion chamber in the boiler can be designed to accommodate any combustible substance. The fuel is burned clean producing no more pollution then a household gas heater. In an automobile the fuel would have to be restricted to one that can be transported and fed automatically. Liquid fuels are the best choice as propane or natural gas are stored under pressure and are vented in case of over pressure creating a danger of explosion. A Stanley, whose pilot had been converted to use propane exploded when vented gas from a spare propane tank carried under the passenger seat ignited killing the driver and injuring the passengers. Possible liquid fuels are kerosene, fuel oil, diesel fuel, and soybean distillate fuel. A properly designed burner system could burn a variety of fuels by using an oxygen sensor in the exhaust to control the proper fuel air mixture.

Counterpoint: I don't argue the technical discussion (it's true), but in this world where one can readily obtain fuels of sufficient octane rating for a gasoline engine or sufficient cetane rating for a diesel engine, one questions what the real advantage is. This mattered in the 1900's in the days before a filling station on every corner, where you might have had to fill the vehicle with lamp fuel or kerosene or heating oil or whatever you could get your hands on.

6. Steam cars of the past outperform I.C. cars.

Yes. - The Doble cars produced between 1923 and 1930 weighing over 4000 lb. could accelerate from 0 to 75 mph in under 5 seconds. and could maintain a top speed of over 95 mph. The early Stanley’s produced so much torque that they lifted the front wheels off the ground when the throttle was opened too quickly.

Counterpoint: I would only add "... of the past" to the end of the statement, because comparable performance is certainly available today. Even at that time, the top-level gasoline fueled vehicles (duesenburg etc) had very good performance, comparable to that quoted.

7. Steam cars are unreliable and require a lot of maintenance.

No. - A Doble E14 produced in 1923 was driven over 600,000 miles requiring only normal maintenance. The Doble cars required no more maintenance then their internal combustion counter parts. Other Doble’s are known to have traveled over 200,000 miles having only routine oil and tire changes.

Counterpoint: No argument here.

8. The Doble Steam Motor Company failed because of engineering design problems.

No. - The company failed because of lack of funding. This is a sad story for the steam car company that could have been. The lack of funding was brought about by one Mr. Edwin M. Daugherty, the Commissioner of Corporations in Los Angeles California. Mr. Edwin M. Daugherty refused to issue the permit necessary for the sail of additional stock until 50 cars had been produced and had given satisfactory service in the hands of owners for six months. This was all very peculiar as Mr. Edwin M. Daugherty had received the independent report concerning the excellence of the car under test. Also the Cooperate Securities Act designed to prevent fraud in the sail of stock provided that if the Commissioner (Mr. Edwin M. Daugherty) upon examination of the application finds, that the proposed plan of business of the applicant is not unfair, unjust or inequitable, that it intends to fairly and honestly transact business, that the Commissioner (Mr. Edwin M. Daugherty) shall issue to the applicant a permit . It was reported that Mr. Edwin M. Daugherty repeatedly stated that he did not question the integrity of the officers of the company, and at one time gave them a letter as follows: Pursuant to your inquiry regarding the Doble Steam Motors Corporation, beg to advise that there is nothing in our files or that has come to my attention, personally, which reflects upon the integrity of the promoters of the Doble Steam Car or the Company.

Counterpoint: none, the history and fate of the company is what it is.

Mr. Doble and his fabulous automobiles deserve no less.

“To one who has faith, no explanation is necessary. To one without faith, no explanation is possible.” - St. Thomas Aquinas

Here is a VERY interesting link (I'm speaking to the limited-yet-distinguished audience reading this thread, remember ) that chronicles the aircraft's story. It's worth a read.

http://wow-really.blogspot.com....html

Modified by vwlarry at 12:01 PM 12-2-2007

“To one who has faith, no explanation is necessary. To one without faith, no explanation is possible.” - St. Thomas Aquinas

Some info on "Rack-Rails"

http://reference.info.com/refe...ilway

“To one who has faith, no explanation is necessary. To one without faith, no explanation is possible.” - St. Thomas Aquinas

A diagram of the BMW Turbosteamer system:

“To one who has faith, no explanation is necessary. To one without faith, no explanation is possible.” - St. Thomas Aquinas

Jay Leno brought out his Doble this past weekend to the opening of our Los Angeles office:

Absolutely agree. My counterpoint to that FAQ was only to address the technical matters from today's engineering viewpoint. In no way does that take away from the accomplishments of the past.

P.S. this is a great thread, awesome pictures.

The shot of the instrument panel is excellent. In case anyone is wondering, the large ebony ring mounted above and within the steering wheel is the car's throttle control. There was no accelerator pedal on the E-series Dobles. You turned the ring to open the throttle or close it. I've read that in Leno's car, he had it modified to have a conventional foot-operated accelerator/throttle pedal, since the ring on the steering wheel can apparently get VERY confusing when cornering and modulating speed at the same time.

I'll bet when you poked your head inside to make that shot, the aroma inside that ancient Doble was very pleasant. There's something about wool upholstery, varnished woodwork, an other natural materials in those old cars that just makes them smell wonderful.

PS: Regarding Leno driving his Doble around Los Angeles, it is perfectly fitting, in that the Doble factory was located in the LA vicinity, I believe, in a town called Emeryville.

Modified by vwlarry at 3:41 PM 12-5-2007

“To one who has faith, no explanation is necessary. To one without faith, no explanation is possible.” - St. Thomas Aquinas