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MEIN_VW
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 Scion brand hits a wall« »

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Toyota's perky youth brand is adding dealers but losing sales as 2nd-generation models struggle


Mark Rechtin
Automotive News
March 3, 2008 - 12:01 am ET

LOS ANGELES — Toyota's cool, quirky Scion youth brand may still be hip but is no longer hot.

Sales, year-on-year, have dropped for 16 straight months. Since August, monthly sales have declined from each previous month, even though dealers have had two redesigned models in their showrooms during that period.

The first-generation Scions were hits right out of the box in 2003 and 2004. But generation two has struggled. All of which begs the question: Is this a brand built to last?

The changeover of two of Scion's three models — the boxy xB and the xD hatchback — dragged on for months and helped depress sales 24.8 percent in 2007 to 130,181 units. But even with new vehicles, Scion can't seem to pull out of its slump.

"We seem to be having more sales peaks and valleys than previously," said Farlon Smith, general manager of Beechmont Toyota-Scion in Cincinnati.

In the past, Scion routinely notched 15,000 to 20,000 sales per month. But January sales were 7,782 units. In January 2006, Scion sold 10,701 vehicles with about 60 fewer dealers than it has now. The average sales per outlet during that period dropped from 11.9 to 8.1.

Scion had 856 dealers as of Jan 1, 2005. But as sales soared in 2005 and 2006, more dealers piled on, even if they weren't in hip, urban neighborhoods.

Currently, 963 of 1,224 Toyota dealers carry the brand. As sales per dealer decline faster than overall volume, one Toyota insider questions whether dealers will give Scion the same share of mind as when vehicles were flying out the door.

Toyota executives insist the soft market is hurting all players and that Scion's grass-roots marketing strategy requires time for the new vehicles to gain sales momentum.

Changeover fumbled

But Jim Lentz, president of Toyota Motor Sales U.S.A., concedes that Scion mishandled last year's model changeover.

Fearing that holdovers could harm the brand's hipness, Toyota stopped production of the old xA and xB in December 2006. But production of the vehicles had already been slowing, and dealers quickly ran dry of product. Meanwhile, the carryover tC coupe was starting to show its age.

The redesigned xB didn't reach showrooms until March, and the new xD didn't arrive until August.

"We underestimated the loss of momentum from the dark period for those two vehicles," said Lentz, who once ran the Scion brand. "The way Scion is marketed, it takes longer to get traction."

The new xB's January sales of 3,319 topped the old xB's January 2007 numbers but were behind the January 2006 total.

The new xD trailed year-ago sales of the xA it replaced and is well behind where the xA was two years ago. One reason may be new competitors.

When Scion started, there was scant small-car competition outside the Hyundai Accent and Kia Rio. But last year the Honda Fit, Nissan Versa and Toyota Yaris accounted for more than 220,000 sales. Scion executives say their vehicles are aimed at a different constituency, but they do worry about the fresh competition.

"There are at least two Scion customer profiles," said Tom Libby, an analyst at J.D. Power and Associates. "One is just looking for the lowest price, and this Scion profile could be hurt by the subcompacts.

"The second profile is the young buyer who wants a Scion because it is cool," he said. "Their friends have one. For this customer, the Yaris and others have no impact. But this second customer profile is limited in size."

According to Power data, the average xD buyer is 42 years old — comparable to other cars in the category. The average buyer of the Fit is 45; the Versa, 43; and the Yaris, 42.

Lentz says Scion customers still come from the desired demographic.

"As we hit spring, I think we'll see some good sales results," Lentz said in an interview. "Sure, we'd like to see more customers, but we're still seeing the right customers. The tC's average customer is under 25 years old. The overall Scion customer is in his early 30s, and primarily he is new to the brand."

Dealers say the second-generation products are good enough — the word just needs to spread.

"The changes in the product were all the things the customers said needed fixing," said Smith of Beechmont Toyota-Scion, which sells 18 or 20 Scions a month.

"Customers complained the speedometer gauges should be easier to see, so Scion went digital," Smith said. "Then they added things like a standard armrest, cruise control and more lighting."

Just the same, Smith said sales aren't what they were.

"Before, it was build your base, then increase. With the changeover and selldown, it was a different twist to not increase."

"We're still getting the urban trendsetters," he said. "We're getting a lot of repeat and referral buyers."

More new vehicles?

John Mathews, managing partner of Pat Lobb Toyota of McKinney in Texas, said most of his Scion customers are first-timers to the brand. The kids who bought first-generation Scions are still driving them, not yet ready for a trade-in.

Mathews says his store's Scion sales, days' supply and days-to-turn are "great." But he is concerned that the second-generation vehicles did not change enough.

"If we are staying with just three products, we need to replace them with something really different from the last," Mathews said. "It's important that the car is always being refreshed. But with every product cycle, it needs to be as though we were starting over."

Lentz said he would like Scion's long-term product plan to have more models — "so we don't risk that lost momentum as we go through model change."

He said the xB's awareness and volumes are on the rise but added that "the xD is not there yet."

"Ask me in 90 days and I'll tell you how comfortable I am."





Quote, originally posted by rosskoss »

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  »« »

You can only sell ugly cars for so long. I thought the tC and xA were nice cars (I bought a 2005 xA to use as a DD when I was in school). The xB and the new xD are just ugly



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 Re: (AutoEuphoria) »« »

Quote, originally posted by AutoEuphoria »
You can only sell ugly cars for so long.

X2

Doesnt surprise me at all



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 Re: Scion brand hits a wall (MEIN_VW) »« »

They're moving away from what made them unique in the first place. The first mistake is the new XB, big, bloated and heavy compared to the previous generation.
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 Re: (AutoEuphoria) »« »

there is a huge difference between the first gen and second.

the first cars were radical and different. Plus they were an all new brand.
the new cars are just ugly.

plus the neatest car they make, the TC has remained all but unchanged.

I have said it before but Toyota have already peaked in my eyes. They are living off their image built 10 years ago.

they'll continue to dominate, but if they continue to make bad decisions (FJ, Tundra, crummy new Corolla etc) and start seeing the rise in quality issues they have been they will be like a GM movie on fast forward.






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 Re: (AutoEuphoria) »« »

Quote, originally posted by AutoEuphoria »
You can only sell ugly cars for so long. I thought the tC and xA were nice cars (I bought a 2005 xA to use as a DD when I was in school). The xB and the new xD are just ugly

Honda/BMW sales are up.



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  »« »

That's what I said.



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  »« »

Whats funny is I predicted Scion to fail out the box. I was shocked at how well it did. Weird b/c the new models are superior to the old ones but are not doing as well. Maybe too much ugly?



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  »« »

that's what happens when you make something even more hideous than it was before. The first gen were not that great and the last ones are pure puke.
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  »« »

How does this surprise anyone? They porked-up the xB...what's the point of a scion that gets mediocre gas mileage?

I think the xA and XB were terrific--definitely making lemonade out the lemony Echo underpinnings. The new ones....blech!

Plus, Toyota made a brand that lives or dies on hipness. That's a double-edged sword (are you listening, MINI?!)



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 Re: Scion brand hits a wall (MEIN_VW) »« »

Truthfully, The Marketing flacks have never been able to get a handle on their own product.

They thought that 'youth' (whatever THAT is) was going to be the big demographic for the XB....and it turned out that Boomers were their biggest demographic.

Then...they didn't realize that gas mileage was selling the old XB....so they redesigned it to be porky and get poor (er) gas mileage...and they can't figure out why the prior demographic doesn't want it
anymore???


I find it especially funny that SCION was supposed to be a 'youth' car company...and then they name the company "WISE ELDER"????

That's what 'Scion' means!





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 Re: (HarryC) »« »

I think the original xB was something unique, the likes of which are rarely seen. Toyota didn't understand the appeal -- it wasn't just a vaguely boxy appearance, but the incredible packaging efficiency, low price, and good fuel economy, on top of the unique appearance. With the new one, they took away the first three benefits and softened the fourth one, leaving them with a weird-looking PT Cruiser competitor. Not a bad car, per se, but it doesn't stand out like the original.

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 Re: (HarryC) »« »

Scion didn't get any new models...just JDM Toyota models rebadged for the US market. Toyota didn't invest much at all and that is showing. People want something unique. Otherwise they'd just buy the Matrix, Corolla, Yaris 2door, and Yaris 4 door.



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 Re: Scion brand hits a wall (sciroccohal) »« »

Quote, originally posted by sciroccohal »

I find it especially funny that SCION was supposed to be a 'youth' car company...and then they name the company "WISE ELDER"????

That's what 'Scion' means!

Quote »

sci·on [sahy-uhn]
–noun
1. a descendant.
2. Also, cion. a shoot or twig, esp. one cut for grafting or planting; a cutting.




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  »« »

Yeah they messed up the XB Big time.



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 Re: (VWFSIB6) »« »

Quote, originally posted by VWFSIB6 »
Yeah they messed up the XB Big time.

Yeah the first generation remains one of my favorite small cars, but the new one is lumpy, big, and ugly



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 Re: Scion brand hits a wall (nm+) »« »

As a scion owner, I can point to two problems why they are having sales problems. As mentioned before, the original XB, which was not supposed to be a big seller, only selling half of what the XA was supposed to, was the opposite, due to being not only economical and unique looking but also having alot of room inside, the car had a lot of soul. In my 2005 XB, with the front seats back, 3 adults, 2 of whom are over 6 feet tall, fit comfortably in the back seat. No the original XB was not fast, but it was never suppossed to be, it was a well equipped fuel efficient little mini van built for cruising around. The new XB, which I had considered before buying my 2005 used, lost its soul. It is not unique looking, its just ugly (though looks are subjective) and it, as mentioned before, gets only mediocre gas mileage. I am averaging 30 MPG in my '05, with almost all city driving, while my friend is getting 23 MPG in his 08.
The second issue is the way scions are priced. While nearly every manufacturer is offering generous discounts, scion dealers are "no haggle" and won't negotiate on sticker prices. I tried, and they wouldn't budge a bit. Which all led to my decision to buy a used "boxy" XB for 6k less than a comparably equipped new XB would have cost. I love the car, and no matter how hard I tried, I couldn't even like the new XB.

My XB

Modified by socal20thAE at 11:39 AM 3-3-2008




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 Re: (1SICKLEX) »« »

Quote, originally posted by 1SICKLEX »

Honda/BMW sales are up.

That's different ugly, though.



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 Re: (Ryukein) »« »

I have a friend with an X Box. He loves it and considers it the spiritual successor to the early microbus. In many ways, he's right, but the new one has lost it's charm and good looks. (OK, it never had good looks, but that's not what makes me want a car!)



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 Re: Scion brand hits a wall (MEIN_VW) »« »

As for the Scion TC. At first this seemed to be a favorite choice of the young girls. Now I've noticed it is quickly replacing Hondas as the car most likely to have a fart can attached.



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 Re: Scion brand hits a wall (WakeHead) »« »

Quote, originally posted by WakeHead »
As for the Scion TC. At first this seemed to be a favorite choice of the young girls. Now I've noticed it is quickly replacing Hondas as the car most likely to have a fart can attached.

and these are now the OE taillights






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 Re: Scion brand hits a wall (socal20thAE) »« »

Quote, originally posted by socal20thAE »
I love the car, and no matter how hard I tried, I couldn't even like the new XB.

... and that's an intangible that is very hard for most car companies to understand, especially when updating a successful product.



Quote, originally posted by Burnin8r »
thumbs down (to wooden steering wheels) unless its a car that you drive while wearing a leather helmet + goggles while yelling "tally ho, chocks away!"

Quote, originally posted by patrikman »
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 Re: Scion brand hits a wall (Air and water do mix) »« »

good, serves em right. next gen xb design room presentation:

"we made it BIGGER! but only on the OUTSIDE, never mind how mind-boggling it is that we've made it unbelievable larger on the outside yet actually smaller on the inside... oh and added 600lbls in the process, so we'll need a bigger engine to pull this new porker around... and defeat the purpose of a small, fuel-efficient vehicle. but america is going to LOVE IT!!!!"

friggin idiots.

i said it before, and i still hope everyone on this design team gets fired.

Modified by yo vanilla at 2:01 PM 3-3-2008



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 Re: Scion brand hits a wall (socal20thAE) »« »

Quote, originally posted by socal20thAE »
and as mentioned before, gets only mediocre gas mileage. I am averaging 30 MPG in my '05, with almost all city driving, while my friend is getting 23 MPG in his 08.

I personally think this is their greatest failure. They want to draw young buyers, but one of the most important costs to young buyers isn't just the purchase, it's gas. Toyota screwed up here, they put in a huge motor that gets abysmal fuel economy for a compact car. We now have >$3/gal all over the country and stories running wild of $4 gas by summertime in PRIME Scion locations such as California. Heck, when they launched Scion, it was ONLY sold in California, right? They screwed up and are losing sales because of it.



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 Re: Scion brand hits a wall (AZGolf) »« »

The new Xb weighs 600lb more than the old one, I think they had to use a bigger engine for the model.





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 Re: Scion brand hits a wall (AZGolf) »« »

i hope scion disappears off the face of the planet






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 Re: Scion brand hits a wall (riceburner2) »« »

Quote, originally posted by riceburner2 »
The new Xb weighs 600lb more than the old one, I think they had to use a bigger engine for the model.

they didn't HAVE to make it 600 freaking pounds heavier.



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 Re: Scion brand hits a wall (yo vanilla) »« »

Quote, originally posted by yo vanilla »

they didn't HAVE to make it 600 freaking pounds heavier.

I know I was being somewhat facetious.

I really liked the older model, at least it was unique and had some personality.



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 Re: Scion brand hits a wall (spidy) »« »

Quote, originally posted by spidy »
They're moving away from what made them unique in the first place. The first mistake is the new XB, big, bloated and heavy compared to the previous generation.

Exactly right IMO.



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 Re: Scion brand hits a wall (riceburner2) »« »

Quote, originally posted by riceburner2 »
The new Xb weighs 600lb more than the old one, I think they had to use a bigger engine for the model.

Agreed, but the fuel economy in real world numbers fell by nearly 8 MPG, which in a car built to be a roomy econobox, undermines a big part of its purpose. My XB is slow, and as I said, I never expected it to be anything different, so I think they went wrong using an engine that added nearly 1 liter and 50 HP more, its overkill for a car thats a cruiser.




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 Re: Scion brand hits a wall (AZGolf) »« »

I'm really interested to see what happens to the Tc. Will they merely refresh the car and offer it for another 4-5 years essentially unchanged or will they soften it even more, maybe boosting economy and reducing even more sport from it. Or will they make it more sporty and hard edged, with an engine similar to what was in the last gen celica GTS?

I like the Xb and I personally like the looks of the current one. I've never been a fan of the Xa or the current version (Xd?). It's kind of like everyone who wanted one now has a scion. And since scion's are toyota's a likely quite reliable, it's going to be a while for people to buy another. But, the cars are cheap toyota's. So, not everyone will go back to another Scion, others will leave the brand entirely or move up to a toyota.

I wonder how much of a dent the Yaris and Fit are having on the Scion brand. I think I would rather have a Yaris hatchback than any of the Scion cars.



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 Re: Scion brand hits a wall (MEIN_VW) »« »

Not surprising at all. I think people have realized that beneath the unique and quirky exterior are cars with mediocre dynamic capabilities. The xA and xB were just awful in terms of ride, noise, and handling. I mean, it's an Echo, regarded as one of the greatest sports cars of all time next to the McLaren F1. The tC looks OK, but the handling is lackluster as well.

Toyota has yet to make a car that is fun to drive. The novelty of neon lights in the footwell and a car that looks like a toaster wears off after a few thousand miles given the poor platform they ride on. They just can't seem to figure that out, and that's why sales are down.



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 Re: Scion brand hits a wall (yo vanilla) »« »

Quote, originally posted by yo vanilla »
they didn't HAVE to make it 600 freaking pounds heavier.

People wanted a bigger car with more power.

I think the number one reason why Scion sales are falling is because its biggest seller, the tC, is starting to look boring. They haven't done enough to keep the tC looking hot. At thea least they should have changed the alloys after the first 2 years.



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 Re: Scion brand hits a wall (riceburner2) »« »

Quote, originally posted by riceburner2 »
The new Xb weighs 600lb more than the old one, I think they had to use a bigger engine for the model.

Correct, but to be all Toyota-y and ask the "5 Why's":

- Why does the xB get bad mileage? Because it has a bigger motor.
- Why does it have a bigger motor? Because it weighs 600lbs more.
- Why does it weight 600 lbs more? Because it's based on the Corolla platform, not the Yaris.
- Why's it on the corolla platform, not the yaris? So it could be bigger: 10" longer & 4" wider.
- Why did it NEED TO BE BIGGER? ____________________

anyone?




Quote, originally posted by JrodVW »
Out of my thread. That's not a time capsule. That's a fart away from the scrap heap.

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 Re: Scion brand hits a wall (sciroccohal) »« »

Quote, originally posted by sciroccohal »
Truthfully, The Marketing flacks have never been able to get a handle on their own product.

They thought that 'youth' (whatever THAT is) was going to be the big demographic for the XB....and it turned out that Boomers were their biggest demographic.

Then...they didn't realize that gas mileage was selling the old XB....so they redesigned it to be porky and get poor (er) gas mileage...and they can't figure out why the prior demographic doesn't want it
anymore???


Quote, originally posted by Article from first post »
"There are at least two Scion customer profiles," said Tom Libby, an analyst at J.D. Power and Associates. "One is just looking for the lowest price, and this Scion profile could be hurt by the subcompacts.

"The second profile is the young buyer who wants a Scion because it is cool," he said. "Their friends have one. For this customer, the Yaris and others have no impact. But this second customer profile is limited in size."


The gas mileage of xB was THE selling point. I don't understand how Toyota could have missed it... I think they were too caught up with the marketing and not enough analysis on the sale data. Why would anyone at Toyota think that a Corolla hatchback can ever replace the original xB? The "bigger is better" mantality was precisely opposite of what Toyota was trying to cultivate with Scion.





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