S3: Granted, not all S cars are out of place in the market. Take the Audi S3 for instance- it's a great car, probably the best hot hatch on the market, and it falls right in line with the BMW 130i in Europe. But say the S3 were sold here in America. It just wouldn't make any sense, given the high price of the Audi A3 3.2Q, which fully loaded could reach $45K. At that price, you might as well be buying a BMW 135i which has 50 more ponies and is a much sweeter car. The solution: replace the 3.2Q with the S3 with same pricing so people don't feel like they're getting ripped off for their $45K. That way, the S3 comes off as an upscale R32, the R32 retains its status as the sole V6 hatch on the market, and all of a sudden Audi has a much more credible competitor to the (also pricey) BMW 135i.

S4: Perhaps the entire reason I'm writing this post is because of this car right here, the B8 Audi S4. As you all know, the new S4 is the talk of Ingolstadt right now and for good reason: this is the first time since the S4's B5 iteration that it will be returning to a forced-induction V6. While some would call it a foolish move to ditch a perfectly solid V8 in favor of a supercharged V6, I look at the move as Audi's first attempt to catch on to the market. The B7 Audi S4 had no competitors; it stood awkwardly in the marketplace by itself as an Audi niche novelty. But the new S4 could have many competitors like the BMW 335i, the Infiniti G37, and the Lexus IS350 if priced correctly. The only problem with this situation is that Audi continues to produce the 3.2Q, which in terms of pricing seems like the more likely competitor to these vehicles. But it's not. The 3.2Q is underpowered, overpriced, and in my view, ready for extinction. So here's my solution: drop the 3.2Q from the model line. That way, there is a gap created between the 2.0T and the S4, forcing the S4 to drop in price to adjust itself to the price of it's competitors. Also, you end up with an A4, S4, and RS4 powered at 230 HP, 330-350 HP, and 450 HP. Perfect, right?

S6: The other day, I was looking at R&T's performance spec sheet that they have in the back of each one of their magazines. Looking at the performance figures of the Audi S6, I noticed it falls right in line with the performance of the BMW 550i, Merc E550, and Jaguar XF Supercharged. Yet for the longest time, all I read were comparisons between the Audi S6 and the BMW M5 and Merc E63 AMG. With the new RS6 on the scene and ready to rock the M5, the S6 has now lost both of it's "marketplace competitors"...according to the magazines at least. The reality of the situation is that the S6 is in exactly the same position as the S4, but Audi hasn't made the proper marketplace adjustments yet. So the solution is: Audi needs to drop the S6's V10 for the 390 HP twin-turbo V8 that's supposed to wind up in the next A7. That way, Audi has done what they did with the S4 in that they dropped to fewer cylinders, but the forced-induction would put the 390 HP S6 right up there with the 380 HP E550 and soon-to-be 400 HP twin-turbo 550i. Of course, with this engine swap would have to also come a price drop, like Audi needs to do with the S4, because currently both the S4 and the S6 are about $10K off from where they need to be to compete.

S8: Not much needs to be said about this vehicle. While not as confusing in the market place, this car still has a V12 and a V10 engine pumping out the same amount of horsepower. Audi argues that the A8 V12 is for comfort and the S8 V10 is for sportiness, but I think Audi would save itself a lot of money and potential overlap by combining the two. The solution: keep the V12 in the Audi A8, but throw on the sport suspension from the S8, and while you're at it go ahead and keep the S8 nameplate too. That way there's a V8 A8 and a V12 S8 (for those who want the extra power and performance).

Conclusion: $10,000 may not seem like a ridiculous amount of money. But literally, it's whats keeping many of Audi's S cars from being competitive in the marketplace with its rivals in the tier below it. If Audi follows the strategy I just laid out, they'd literally have the perfect lineup when you think about it:

A3: I4t, 200 HP
S3: I4t, 265 HP

A4: I4t, 230 HP
S4: V6s, 330-350 HP
RS4: V8, 450 HP

A6: V6s, 290 HP
S6: V8t, 390 HP
RS6: V10t, 570 HP

A8: V8t, 390 HP
S8: V12, 450-480 HP

Now of course I'm leaving out certain cars like the TTS and the Q models, but I'm just taking into account Audi's A-lineup. I feel like it's a shame that the S cars have become such oddities in the marketplace. That's not to say that they're not doing well in sales, but they don't really fit into any segment. Of course, that can all change. For the last decade, when compared to some of it's competitors like BMW and Mercedes, Audi has been considered overpriced and underpowered. Who says Audi can't be the power and performance leader BMW has been with its 3-series and 5-series? Certainly not me.

Quote, originally posted by GTI 20v »

I want to buy a dump truck, fill it with gravel, and then drive on the highway in front of other dump trucks and break their windshields.

Quote, originally posted by Fangoriously »

agree 100% nice right up

100% bad spelling.

Modified by WakeHead at 8:46 PM 6-21-2008

Quote, originally posted by redtrunks »

S3: Granted, not all S cars are out of place in the market. Take the Audi S3 for instance- it's a great car, probably the best hot hatch on the market, and it falls right in line with the BMW 130i in Europe. But say the S3 were sold here in America. It just wouldn't make any sense, given the high price of the Audi A3 3.2Q, which fully loaded could reach $45K. At that price, you might as well be buying a BMW 135i which has 50 more ponies and is a much sweeter car. The solution: replace the 3.2Q with the S3 with same pricing so people don't feel like they're getting ripped off for their $45K. That way, the S3 comes off as an upscale R32, the R32 retains its status as the sole V6 hatch on the market, and all of a sudden Audi has a much more credible competitor to the (also pricey) BMW 135i.

omg yes please.

The only thing Audi got going for it is the interior design. Unfortunately, most car enthusiasts consider performance being of primary importance.

edit - IBTAudiFanboiFlames

Modified by JunkStory at 6:05 PM 6-21-2008

Im a huge vw/audi fanboy, and i agree 100% with the OP

Interior and quite possibly exterior, audi is ahead of the competition, but they DEFINITELY suffer from being underpowered/overpriced compared to the others.

I just dont get their engine choices sometimes, and yes the 3.2 needs to go away

And I definitely agree about the 3.2. I don't see the appeal of that engine at all.

The A4 will actually get a price increase, according to a new release by Audi. So I doubt they will lower prices for the upcoming S4. The S5 will see a 9.8% price increase.

http://www.a5oc.com/forums/sho....html

I think we need to make a supply/demand curve and show Audi that they are probably not as close to equilibrium in this market as they should be. I understand that VWAG is not selling as strongly in their lower brands (proportionately to things like Bentley and Lamborghini, which relative to their traditional volumes are veritable explosions) as they could be. I understand that Audi would like to sell infinite vehicles at the highest price possible, and they are making a heck of a go at it, but reality just doesn't work that way. People want to get what they believe they are paying for, but sadly most people don't seem to believe that Audi is giving them that at their current prices. Now, the prices may seem healthy for their corporate image(a pricey product of high quality seems like a smart settup), but it is not healthy for their bottom line, which despite the "soul" of VWAG products, certainly needs to be addressed in order to keep them viable in this market. Look at Saab.

Modified by BattleRabbit at 10:08 PM 6-21-2008

The 356 build: starting soon!
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=4664268

Quote, originally posted by DarthVader »

I think even A-list celebs would put out if you had a F355 car bed. But only if you lower it.

Having base, S-Line, S, and RS models just seems to muddy the waters and create a lot of overlap in pricing.

I like the way Benz does it, they usually offer two different engines in each class and an AMG model for everything that they build.

-I think pricing does need to be lowered, but I think it'd be acceptable for a couple of thousand more than competitors because the Audis generally tend to have much nicer interiors

-with the A8, I have a couple of problems:
1. the A8 has a W12, not a V12.
2. the A8 W12 is the A8 L, hence the luxury designation. It competes with the 760Li.
3. the S8 with the V10 is the short wheelbase, making it much more acceptable as a sporty model. It competes with the 760i.

So, I think the A8/S8, their D-segment car, has found its place in the market.

The S4 was a competitor to the M3, but when Audi made the RS4, BMW decided to move the M3 upmarket with the E90 and left the gap where the S4 is now.

The lower models (read: S4, S6) I think need to have two fewer cylinders (as they are doing with S4) and forced induction. So a supercharged V8 for S6. Also, speed up the switch to the 3.0T in the S5, so the lines match up better.

As for the S3, I think they need the upcoming 2.5T detuned a bit from the TTR(S) to about 290-310 PS.

I think they need a legitimate competitor to the 6-series and CL, larger than the A5/S5.

And I think they should make an S1 with the 2.5T at the same tune as the S3 I proposed, to honor the famous Audi S1 quattro.

And I think that all the S models need manuals, including S8, since it's the sporty model and the W12 fills the rapid luxury segment.

And take a look at this; BMW is reviving the tii name to rival the S-cars, while they have moved up the M division to challenge RS.

http://forums.fourtitude.com/zerothread?id=3874822

The only thing about the Audi that beats the BMW is the interior design and the winter-friendliness of AWD. Other than that though, BMW makes better driving cars, period.

Excellent write-up BTW.

I don't need any coercing to come back to the vag.

Seriously.

"My faucets is MOEN!!" KOAB

SHARKS! ANGELS! CHARGERS!

Someone email this to Audi...actually, everyone email this thread to Audi.

Oh, and don't even get me started on the A5/S5 mess.

Modified by amerikanzero at 4:21 AM 6-22-2008

Agree on most counts.
What would you do with the A6 4.2? 290HP, 350Hp and 390HP would put them a little too close to one another. If you drop it, you might lose customers who just want the V8 power without the sporty suspension of the S6. I'm thinking upgrade the S6's 430HP V10 to 450HP as in the S8 and replace the NA 4.2 with the Turbo 4.2 V8. 290HP, 390HP, and 450HP. But on the flipside, I like your idea because a 450HP S6 might not be faster enough than a lighter Turbo V8 A6 to justify its purchase. Maybe they could make a higher-boost 4.2 with 450HP/430trq and less weight.

As for the S8 / A8 W12, I say keep the V10! The W12 is nothing more than heavy weight compared to the V10

Even back then, it was said that the S4 was no where near in performance to the M3. They said it was a pointless car.

To this day, Audi hasn't learned its lesson, and I doubt they will. You will see Audi cars underpowered and under sold for at least the next decade.

Some are saying that Audi will bring the S vehicles "down a little" with the upcoming S4. We will find out soon enough.

Modified by chewym at 9:46 PM 6-21-2008

http://killwithfire.blogspot.com/

The RS outperforms the competition's "outgoing" models.
In the next year, the competition will already beat the RS without a hefty premium.

Really bad timing by Audi, they release A/S, and by the time they release the RS, the competition will already have a new model change.

really? right is spelled wrong? thats actually what we call a grammar mistake.

nice try failure

Quote, originally posted by GTI 20v »

I want to buy a dump truck, fill it with gravel, and then drive on the highway in front of other dump trucks and break their windshields.

Which magazine is that? I think both Car and Driver and Road & Track found the S4 better. The S4 was somewhat slower. And you are comparing a sedan and a coupe.

http://killwithfire.blogspot.com/

TIt's a product cycle thing. The upcoming/already on sale in Europe RS6 will/has have significantly more performance than the current M5 and E63. Sure, in couple of years the next generation M5 or E class AMG will probably have a little more performance than the second gen RS6 for a little less. Then Audi will have the third gen RS6 that will outperform the M/AMG available at the time. This will go on until we are out of IC powered cars.

http://killwithfire.blogspot.com/

Except the M/AMG stays a lot longer in production than the RS.
And already kicking A/S around like kiddies until the RS arrives for like two years(and new, faster M/AMG will be revealed by this time).

RS is a limited (sales time and quantity) vehicles. Audi is working on getting RS cars out earlier. But it doesn't have plans for mass production of RS vehicles.

http://killwithfire.blogspot.com/

at least in the US u can have quattro for every model, in asia most of the time u can only get quattro for the top model, i've seen A4 (2.0 engine) FWD with cloth interior in shanghai, i was so grossed out i puked...

I wish they did.

Quote, originally posted by 1SICKLEX »

What could we learn from possibly the dumbest person in the history of the internet?

Seriously? Audi makes the most bland looking cars, and they all look the same, except the R8.

Quote, originally posted by Sporin »

there's a reason car manufacturers don't bother listening to TCL "wisdom."

RedWings 2008 Stanley Cup Champions

Also, the Infiniti interior is becoming better and better, so the whole argument that Audi's are worth more because of the interior, is becoming moot.

Modified by JunkStory at 2:22 AM 6-22-2008