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    Thread: Go ahead...ask those car questions you were always afraid to ask...

    1. Member
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      07-30-2019 05:50 PM #7276
      Quote Originally Posted by 2.0_Mazda View Post
      Just purchased a 2019 3 and noticed something I have trouble explaining. Anyone know how this could happen?

      Odometer :100km

      Trip A and B: 102.2km

      Thanks
      On the BMW factory tour, they told us that they are allowed to reset the odometer one time so long as it's below 20km or so, so that they can deliver a car without the factory dyno miles on the odometer. I'm guessing the 2.2km was on a dyno at the end of the assembly line, and the odo was reset but not the trip meter. Hard to say.

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    3. Member worth_fixing's Avatar
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      08-15-2019 08:44 AM #7277
      i've always wondered this

      so many of us would agree that some of the best shifting manual transmissions are the older Honda trans found in Integras and Civic Si's. But regardless of what you actually prefer, we can all agree that the older manual transmissions from Honda just felt so much better to shift than just about anything on the market today. (if I'm wrong, correct me since I haven't driven every manual car available to man).

      I understand engines needing serious change to cope with emissions regulations (thus losing character) but manual transmissions and clutch interaction should be pretty much completely unchanged, unless you're perfecting it. Having driven quite a few recent manual cars (including my Mazda3) it gets me wondering why every manual transmission ever produced today doesn't drive and feel as good as the best manual ever built.

      Why is that? Why do some manuals (engineered today) feel spongy, vague, lock you out of a gear on occasion, have "lazy" synchros, have long spongy clutch engagement, notchy crunchy shift feel...etc. Would manufacturers not have weeded out all of the things that didn't work well with their old manuals 20 years ago? Did they not drive a competitor's car at some point and say "oh sh!t, yeah that's nice lets do that". How come a brand new Corolla shifts like your cutting cheese cake with a wooden spoon, or a 2017 Subaru Impreza STILL shift like moving a spatula in a tuna can full of coins?

      and question 2; what hardware differences have the better transmissions had that made them so much better than the others?
      Last edited by worth_fixing; 08-15-2019 at 08:59 AM.
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    4. Member worth_fixing's Avatar
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      08-15-2019 01:47 PM #7278
      nothing yet, eh? no trans experts out there?
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      08-15-2019 01:56 PM #7279
      Quote Originally Posted by worth_fixing View Post
      nothing yet, eh? no trans experts out there?
      I'm with ya on this one, My 1995 Integra and 96 Miata were the two best shifting cars I've ever owned. Many newer manual transmission cars later from American/European manufacturers and nothing has come close.

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      08-15-2019 02:00 PM #7280
      Quote Originally Posted by worth_fixing View Post
      nothing yet, eh? no trans experts out there?
      I'll take a shot. Manufacturers invest in what makes money--if someone says, "hey, we could improve shift feel by investing $X million in new MT tooling and design", it's pretty easy for the execs to shoot down as it will be hard to profit. I don't think there's any technical limitations such as material scarcity/regulation etc. that have changed (it's mostly just steel, aluminum, and brass after all)-- but people lining up to buy them has.

      As far as what's different? A few things; if less money is spent, then less time is spent on getting the dimensions and materials just right, the parts aren't going to be built with the same precision, etc. Think about a rifle action; companies like Remington spend a lot of time and money getting those parts very precise and well engineered. Meanwhile, I could produce a similar motion with a dowel and a PVC pipe, but it wouldn't be nearly as well functioning.

      And FWIW the 6MTs in late-model Porsches and M-cars are still pretty good. Short throws, stiff clutches, and notchy in the right ways. Miata's probably isn't the best but it's not bad either.

    7. Member Bad Rabbit Habit's Avatar
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      08-15-2019 03:04 PM #7281
      Also a secondary theory for the crappier feeling shifters. Torque numbers are much higher than golden era Honda’s. For higher rated trans, all the moving parts have to be beefier.
      And for FWD applications, I believe most modern cars are cable shifters, instead of a linkage. I know with VWs, the shifter feel went downhill when they switched to cable. At least in my opinion. I am currently in the process of switching a later cable trans to rod linkage in my rabbit, and I am really curious how it’s gonna feel.
      -Jon
      ig:badrabbithabit Formerly known as: monoaural

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      08-15-2019 05:50 PM #7282
      Quote Originally Posted by Bad Rabbit Habit View Post
      And for FWD applications, I believe most modern cars are cable shifters, instead of a linkage. I know with VWs, the shifter feel went downhill when they switched to cable. At least in my opinion. I am currently in the process of switching a later cable trans to rod linkage in my rabbit, and I am really curious how it’s gonna feel.
      True. A linkage can have slop in it, but in general a cable will probably have a little more. That said, many great shifters such as 911s have cables to the rear transaxles.

    9. Senior Member UncleJB's Avatar
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      08-15-2019 06:06 PM #7283
      Quote Originally Posted by worth_fixing View Post
      nothing yet, eh? no trans experts out there?
      I agree with you. My '91 DX hatch (purchased new) still hangs in my memory as one of the smoothest shifting cars I've owned.

    10. Member MBrown's Avatar
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      08-15-2019 06:46 PM #7284
      I've had 17 cars. Sixteen of them had clutch pedals -- the outlier was a 2014 BMW M5 with the dual-clutch transmission. The first was a 1975 Oldsmobile Starfire (old dude here!). The 16 included one Toyota (1982 Supra), one Mercedes (1988 190e 2.3), eight BMWs (three of which were proper M cars [2002 e39 M5, 2008 e90 M3, 2014 f10 M5]), four VWs, and a Mazda. In general, the RWD cars have had the better shifters. I think they've been a mix of ZF and Getrag, although I think Mercedes actually built their own.

      The BMWs all had pretty good shifting action, though it got harder and harder to drive smoothly as HP ratings went up. The last manual BMW I had was a 2011 550i M Sport -- 400 HP, 400 lb-ft. My current Miata has a pretty nice, smooth gearbox, too, and all of 155 HP.

      But the car that still sticks out in my mind as having an amazingly sweet shift was -- of all things -- a 1985 Peugeot 505 Turbo.

      My BMWs had very nice shift knobs -- either leather or walnut or both. Relatively short throws, nicely weighted and sprung well for accurate shifting. The Peugeot had a long lever, and the knob was hard plastic. But the action was so perfectly weighted and sprung, and the knob so perfectly placed that the car could have been designed just for me. Start out in first; hands on the wheel at 9 and 3. Run up through first (waiting for the damn turbo to FINALLY spin up), let go of the wheel with my right hand and drop my arm, palm down. Open palm lands on the lever, shifting from first to second perfectly. Two to three was a light shove with the palm. Three to four, as easy and accurate as 1 - 2, four to five took a little more intent, but was still amazingly accurate.

      All these years later, I still remember how satisfying it was to shift that transmission.
      Current 1: 2018 Golf R, 6MT
      Current 2: 2017 Mazda Miata RF, Grand Touring, 6MT
      Previous: MkVII GTI, eight BMWs, two MkIV GTIs (both with VR6), a Mercedes, a Peugeot, a Toyota, and an Oldsmobile, all but one with manual transmissions

    11. Member worth_fixing's Avatar
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      08-15-2019 08:28 PM #7285
      Quote Originally Posted by MBrown View Post
      I've had 17 cars. Sixteen of them had clutch pedals -- the outlier was a 2014 BMW M5 with the dual-clutch transmission. The first was a 1975 Oldsmobile Starfire (old dude here!). The 16 included one Toyota (1982 Supra), one Mercedes (1988 190e 2.3), eight BMWs (three of which were proper M cars [2002 e39 M5, 2008 e90 M3, 2014 f10 M5]), four VWs, and a Mazda. In general, the RWD cars have had the better shifters. I think they've been a mix of ZF and Getrag, although I think Mercedes actually built their own.

      The BMWs all had pretty good shifting action, though it got harder and harder to drive smoothly as HP ratings went up. The last manual BMW I had was a 2011 550i M Sport -- 400 HP, 400 lb-ft. My current Miata has a pretty nice, smooth gearbox, too, and all of 155 HP.

      But the car that still sticks out in my mind as having an amazingly sweet shift was -- of all things -- a 1985 Peugeot 505 Turbo.

      My BMWs had very nice shift knobs -- either leather or walnut or both. Relatively short throws, nicely weighted and sprung well for accurate shifting. The Peugeot had a long lever, and the knob was hard plastic. But the action was so perfectly weighted and sprung, and the knob so perfectly placed that the car could have been designed just for me. Start out in first; hands on the wheel at 9 and 3. Run up through first (waiting for the damn turbo to FINALLY spin up), let go of the wheel with my right hand and drop my arm, palm down. Open palm lands on the lever, shifting from first to second perfectly. Two to three was a light shove with the palm. Three to four, as easy and accurate as 1 - 2, four to five took a little more intent, but was still amazingly accurate.

      All these years later, I still remember how satisfying it was to shift that transmission.
      I genuinely enjoyed reading that.
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    12. Member worth_fixing's Avatar
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      08-15-2019 08:29 PM #7286
      Quote Originally Posted by ghost03 View Post
      I'll take a shot. Manufacturers invest in what makes money--if someone says, "hey, we could improve shift feel by investing $X million in new MT tooling and design", it's pretty easy for the execs to shoot down as it will be hard to profit. I don't think there's any technical limitations such as material scarcity/regulation etc. that have changed (it's mostly just steel, aluminum, and brass after all)-- but people lining up to buy them has.

      As far as what's different? A few things; if less money is spent, then less time is spent on getting the dimensions and materials just right, the parts aren't going to be built with the same precision, etc. Think about a rifle action; companies like Remington spend a lot of time and money getting those parts very precise and well engineered. Meanwhile, I could produce a similar motion with a dowel and a PVC pipe, but it wouldn't be nearly as well functioning.

      And FWIW the 6MTs in late-model Porsches and M-cars are still pretty good. Short throws, stiff clutches, and notchy in the right ways. Miata's probably isn't the best but it's not bad either.
      that seems to make the most sense...but I still have a hard time grasping how much money would be needed engineer (or re-engineer?) a manual trans from ok to good, or from good to great. seems to me you find a good recepe and you stick to it for good (since so few things will need to change). it can't be millions of $ of R&D; they did it just fine ages ago.

      anyway, thanks a lot guys for pitching in.
      Last edited by worth_fixing; 08-15-2019 at 08:42 PM.
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    13. Member worth_fixing's Avatar
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      08-15-2019 08:39 PM #7287
      Quote Originally Posted by ghost03 View Post
      True. A linkage can have slop in it, but in general a cable will probably have a little more. That said, many great shifters such as 911s have cables to the rear transaxles.
      I know, right? it can't just be a rod vs linkage thing. i feel not all syncros are created equally. mine in my car don't feel half as good as the ones in my old 2001 Mazda Protege. You could punch any gear as hard as you wanted and it would always ALWAYS take it like a champ. My current 2014 Mazda3 sometimes can't even cope with the mildest of revv variations with the gentlest push...kinda of frustrating feeling a crunch when you know you did everything you could to make that shift as smooth as humanly possible. And so I wondered...
      Last edited by worth_fixing; 08-15-2019 at 08:41 PM.
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      08-15-2019 09:47 PM #7288
      Quote Originally Posted by worth_fixing View Post
      it can't be millions of $ of R&D; they did it just fine ages ago.
      Right, they definitely know how to produce good boxes. Presumably if costs are being avoided they are in QC, tooling, manufacturing processes, materials, etc.

      This is a purely hypothetical example that I'm making up to illustrate the idea, but let's say there's some expensive brass alloy that has just the right amount of zinc and the perfect grain structure for a great feeling shift. 20 years ago, a gearbox company could spend time and money chasing down suppliers of that alloy and negotiating a good volume discount. Today, they don't make enough MT's to qualify for the discount nor have enough time to negotiate it properly--and without discount the alloy is too expensive--so instead of raising prices on a unit with dwindling sales, they switch to a cheaper but inferior alloy.

    15. Member worth_fixing's Avatar
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      08-15-2019 10:12 PM #7289
      Quote Originally Posted by ghost03 View Post
      Right, they definitely know how to produce good boxes. Presumably if costs are being avoided they are in QC, tooling, manufacturing processes, materials, etc.

      This is a purely hypothetical example that I'm making up to illustrate the idea, but let's say there's some expensive brass alloy that has just the right amount of zinc and the perfect grain structure for a great feeling shift. 20 years ago, a gearbox company could spend time and money chasing down suppliers of that alloy and negotiating a good volume discount. Today, they don't make enough MT's to qualify for the discount nor have enough time to negotiate it properly--and without discount the alloy is too expensive--so instead of raising prices on a unit with dwindling sales, they switch to a cheaper but inferior alloy.
      ahhhh. well said.

      ok, makes sense actually. thanks a lor for your input.
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    16. Member fastinradford's Avatar
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      08-15-2019 10:33 PM #7290
      Quote Originally Posted by ghost03 View Post
      Right, they definitely know how to produce good boxes. Presumably if costs are being avoided they are in QC, tooling, manufacturing processes, materials, etc.

      This is a purely hypothetical example that I'm making up to illustrate the idea, but let's say there's some expensive brass alloy that has just the right amount of zinc and the perfect grain structure for a great feeling shift. 20 years ago, a gearbox company could spend time and money chasing down suppliers of that alloy and negotiating a good volume discount. Today, they don't make enough MT's to qualify for the discount nor have enough time to negotiate it properly--and without discount the alloy is too expensive--so instead of raising prices on a unit with dwindling sales, they switch to a cheaper but inferior alloy.
      hmmm interesting. i like your theory.

      I have the transmission out of a 1990 corrado in my rabbit pickup.

      I believe its never been apart. and it still shifts amazingly.

      and it explains why honda made such amazing manual transmissions, because they bought huge bulk of manuals.

      It sucks cars are designed by "bean counters"
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      08-16-2019 07:15 PM #7291
      Quote Originally Posted by worth_fixing View Post
      ahhhh. well said.

      ok, makes sense actually. thanks a lor for your input.
      Thanks, no problem.


      Quote Originally Posted by fastinradford
      and it explains why honda made such amazing manual transmissions, because they bought huge bulk of manuals.

      It sucks cars are designed by "bean counters"
      FWIW, I didn't mean it was materials necessarily, but the idea of volume paying dividends. And yeah, penny pinching can be a pain and I hate when it becomes obvious in the product, but at least cars are still somewhat affordable.

    18. Member 2.0_Mazda's Avatar
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      10-09-2019 12:18 PM #7292
      How long can I drive on this without it being dangerous. Car has 8500km, didn't even buy my damn winter tires yet and I need to replace my summer.

      I'm planning on installing my winter's in about a month and a half. I do about 500km per week so another 3000km until the summer's are off the car.

      Thanks

      Sent from a telephone while driving

    19. Geriatric Member ValveCoverGasket's Avatar
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      10-09-2019 01:04 PM #7293
      youll feel it bump around like a badly out of balance wheel, more and more, as you get closer to failure.

      i had one of those on a nearly new tire when we had our cla. it got worse and worse until i couldnt really stand it anymore and had to have it replaced.

    20. Member Elite_Deforce's Avatar
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      10-09-2019 03:48 PM #7294
      8500 km? Try the dealer see what they do?

      I wouldn't drive on that very long.
      Quote Originally Posted by Sonderwunsch View Post
      People have been complaining about modern BMWs lacking steering feel so they are adding torque steer.
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    21. Learning New Things Every Day. GreenandChrome's Avatar
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      10-09-2019 04:27 PM #7295
      Quote Originally Posted by 2.0_Mazda View Post
      How long can I drive on this without it being dangerous. Car has 8500km, didn't even buy my damn winter tires yet and I need to replace my summer.

      I'm planning on installing my winter's in about a month and a half. I do about 500km per week so another 3000km until the summer's are off the car.

      Thanks

      Sent from a telephone while driving
      you should have a tire warranty that would cover that defect.

      I've driven a couple hundred miles on a tire that had a bulge on the inside (towards inside the car, not inside the tire). I couldn't see it because my S-10 had a whopping 3" ground clearance up front. First day I had it I couldn't tell because we had a snowmageddon (3 hours to work, normally 45mins). Second day there was a slight vibration that I thought was compact snow and ice. I told my dad when I got home and he looked at it and found the bulge. My mom got angry with me, like a tire manufacturing defect was somehow my fault.
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    22. Senior Member AZGolf's Avatar
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      10-09-2019 04:59 PM #7296
      Quote Originally Posted by GreenandChrome View Post
      you should have a tire warranty that would cover that defect.

      ...

      My mom got angry with me, like a tire manufacturing defect was somehow my fault.
      You're saying defect, but that looks exactly like how a tire starts to fail after hitting a hard pothole or brick in the road and it damages the steel belts inside. I'm not even sure how someone would tell for sure without doing an X-Ray of the tire, and obviously nobody ever does that. How often to tire warranties get denied when they look like pothole damage? I've only had it happen once to me and I was reasonably close to needing new tires anyway so I just purchased new tires rather than try to get one covered.

    23. Member 2.0_Mazda's Avatar
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      10-09-2019 06:34 PM #7297
      Quote Originally Posted by Elite_Deforce View Post
      8500 km? Try the dealer see what they do?

      I wouldn't drive on that very long.
      I'll see if they're willing to replace it out of goodwill. I think I'll be sh!t out of luck

      Quote Originally Posted by GreenandChrome View Post
      you should have a tire warranty that would cover that defect.

      I've driven a couple hundred miles on a tire that had a bulge on the inside (towards inside the car, not inside the tire). I couldn't see it because my S-10 had a whopping 3" ground clearance up front. First day I had it I couldn't tell because we had a snowmageddon (3 hours to work, normally 45mins). Second day there was a slight vibration that I thought was compact snow and ice. I told my dad when I got home and he looked at it and found the bulge. My mom got angry with me, like a tire manufacturing defect was somehow my fault.
      Unfortunately not a tire defect. Road hazards... Montreal roads.

      Quote Originally Posted by AZGolf View Post
      You're saying defect, but that looks exactly like how a tire starts to fail after hitting a hard pothole or brick in the road and it damages the steel belts inside. I'm not even sure how someone would tell for sure without doing an X-Ray of the tire, and obviously nobody ever does that. How often to tire warranties get denied when they look like pothole damage? I've only had it happen once to me and I was reasonably close to needing new tires anyway so I just purchased new tires rather than try to get one covered.
      Bingo. I smacked a typical Montreal pothole. It was on the crest of a hill, had all of a few feet to avoid it. I might try to get them to warranty it anyways.

      Thanks guys for your help!

      Last edited by 2.0_Mazda; 10-09-2019 at 06:38 PM.

    24. Member Elite_Deforce's Avatar
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      10-09-2019 06:36 PM #7298
      Quote Originally Posted by 2.0_Mazda View Post

      Bingo. I smacked a typical Montreal pothole. It was on the crest of a hill, had all of a few feet to avoid it. I might try to get them to warranty it anyways.

      Thanks guys for your insights!

      If you do it right, you can claim that from the city.
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      People have been complaining about modern BMWs lacking steering feel so they are adding torque steer.
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      Quote Originally Posted by BRealistic View Post
      I find it ironic that long time Euro brand fans would assume long term reliability issues would destroy any love of a unique product.

    25. Member 2.0_Mazda's Avatar
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      10-09-2019 06:43 PM #7299
      Quote Originally Posted by Elite_Deforce View Post
      If you do it right, you can claim that from the city.
      Yeah... Quebec is good at not taking blame for their BS roads. For $200, don't want to spend too much time fighting the Ministère des Transports.

      I'll give my dealership a try and see how it works.

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      Q. My vehicle was damaged because of a hole in the roadway. What recourse do I have?

      The complaint must be submitted to the ministère des Transports, de la Mobilité durable et de l'Électrification des transports who will investigate. It must be demonstrated that the Ministère is at fault or was negligent.

      However, under section 30 of the Act respecting roads: “The Minister is not liable for damage caused by the state of the roadway to the tires or suspension system of a motor vehicle.”

    26. Member Elite_Deforce's Avatar
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      10-09-2019 07:39 PM #7300
      If they compensate you, it will be on a good will basis if it can be established on the balance of probabilities that the pothole was unavoidable. Also, you would be claiming to the VdeM, not the province (unless it was on a provincial highway).
      Quote Originally Posted by Sonderwunsch View Post
      People have been complaining about modern BMWs lacking steering feel so they are adding torque steer.
      Quote Originally Posted by Ernie McCracken View Post
      I don't trust the judgment of anyone who likes black wheels.
      Quote Originally Posted by BRealistic View Post
      I find it ironic that long time Euro brand fans would assume long term reliability issues would destroy any love of a unique product.

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