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    Thread: The unofficial Cluster Swap thread

    1. Member sdezego's Avatar
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      '90 Corrado | '62 Harley Panhead
      02-14-2007 10:21 PM #1
      EDIT: 5/10/2017 - I hope to be reorganizing this thread or creating a new one soon so consolidate info. This thread was initially created as a Work in progress and turned into to goto reference. So, your answer is in here, but you may have to sift.

      There have been tons of questions lately about cluster swaps. Since this was a final "todo" to complete my late interior swap into my '90, I decided to share my research and hopefully get some answers I still have. Hopefully, others will post up some fact on the swaps they did.
      Some facts (some obvious):
      1.) 89-90 G60 used Mechanical Speedometers
      2.) 89-90 Clusters have a VSS (Vehicle Speed sensor) right off the back of the speedo (speedo Cable plugs into this). This is a Hall Effect sensor used for Cruise, Spoiler and MFI (Later called MFA)
      3.) All 92- Clusters used a MAP sensor on the back of the cluster for Fuel Economy calcs. My Understanding (from the Bentley) is that these MAPs or at least what is referenced via the EEPROM is different between the G60 and SLC (Due to Boost and non Boost). This may just be a ref calc on the memory chip though and not the actual MAP sensor. For G60 you can set the MFA into Diagnostic mode and get vac/boost numbers right off the MFA display and can translate them into absolute pressures via the Bentley (I think most are well aware of this)
      4.) All Corrados 91+ used digital speedos and a VSS off of the "Speedo drive unit in the transmission". This VSS can screw directly onto and early drive unit in place of the speedo cable if you are swapping to digital.
      5.) 89-90 Clusters have most of the circuitry built into the gauges themselves. And there is no True "PCB" in the cluster per say.
      6.) All Corrado Clusters use physically the same plugs in the Cluster (T28) and U1 and U2 that plug into the Fuse Box. Wire Positions will vary though. You should use the cluster pig tail from the cluster you are installing! If not, then you will have to verify pins via the table below.
      7.) 89-90 had only one indicator light for Turn Signal courtesy. Later had 2 Arrows for left and right
      8.) 89-90 has an overheat and Coolant light built into the Temp Gauge and later had the LED across the bottom with the others. There was a coolant control unit on the 90 that looks like a relay. If you are swapping from 90 to digital you will have to correct this (see post in below thread on how to jump this) or else you will be stuck with a blinking coolant light

      Likely the Most Desirable:
      1.) The 93+ cluster that has the red needles, refaced gauges and "Corrado" insignia on the Tach.
      2.) 93+ clusters do not have a MAP and tie one wire into the ECU for an injector pulse signal to determine fuel economy. Change injectors or FPR and this will be inaccurate...
      3.) Contrary to the Bentley and the early clusters, all of the wires from the cluster to the Fuse box in the late style are ALL WHITE WIRES (with the exception of 4)
      4.) The Late Cluster (91+) uses a full PCB for it's circuitry and the gauges are in their rare form and just plug into the PCB.
      5.) The oil Temp and External Temp senders are different than G60's (form wise)

      All clusters have a wire for VSS out that drives the Spoiler Module, Cruise and MFA via Blue/White wires
      PINOUT:

      Pin 1 = +12v (G1/4 i.e. Coil +12v)
      Pin 2 = VSS Hall Signal (G1/11 -> U1/11 -> T28/27)
      Pin 3 = Grnd (factory 91 = G1/6)


      Now for the Good stuff
      I successfully transplanted the later 93+ SLC Cluster into my 90. I had to get to the point where everythgin is functioning correctly, so the following posts describe my work in progress. Just note: there are errors that I have already found
      Here is what happened initially after the swapt:
      - Everything is in and works!! ...but needed to iron a few things
      - The Tach Read low as I expected (going from a 6cyl to a 4). At about 900 I am ready about 600rpm. I may try to convert the signal and make it correct for the 4cyl via Megasquirt Tacho out or look at getting a later UK 16v tack with the higher redline. A Tach converter might work for others interested (momentum tuning, Dakota Digital or MSD).
      EDIT: I ended up getting the PCB from a 91/92 Corrado and plugged in the later looking gauge modules. This gave me a correct tach reading and also has the Map sensor built in for the G60 MFA diagnostic and fuel eco calcs.

      - i didn't have the Trans VSS from a 91-92 Corrado initially (and I am impatient), so I used the old Mech speed gauge only and soldered wires onto the VSS to drive the Late Speedo. The early gauge/VSS is driven via the cable obviously and is tucked out of site behind the late cluster. Works wonderfully
      - There was no MFA Fuel Economy reading. The Violet/White wire that goes to the later ECU is an injector pulse.
      - Outside Temp reads 122F when it should read ~80. Even though I tried both senders, both were bad. I used a new sender and this was corrected. Temp, I used and IAT sensor from and ABA as it had the same plug The reading was very close.
      Here is the Wiring Cross Reference.
      BE CAREFUL!!! If you follow the circuit diagrams in the Bentley, it shows that they swapped Pin 11 and 17 (Oil Temp Sender and + Term30) after '92. THIS IS WRONG and I think they mixed up the labels for T28/11 and T28/17 on the Cluster Diagram. I physically verified this is wrong and was the reason the Oil Temp was screwed.
      -T28 is the 28 Prong plug in the back of the cluster
      - U1 and U2 are the two blue plugs at the other end of the cluster pigtail that plugs into the Fuse box in said positions. i.e.: U1/2 would be Plug U1 and wire position #2, etc.
      - Still need to verify the functions of wires T28/26 (to ECU) and T28/28
      EDIT(s): Updated image to reflect Bentley being incorrect.

      removed some of my posts to clean things up, since the questions and answers are shown in responses.
      EDIT: 6/18/2008 Added pics.
      Click for Larger Pics
      '90 Cluster PCB


      '91+ Cluster PCB (Coil Pack- late '93+ looks the same except it does not have the Map sensor on the back for the MFA. Late one is actually pictured below even though the gauges have earlier faces)


      91+ Tach vs 90 style



      My Temp Hack job soldering wires onto the 90 Speedo's Speed sensor to drive the Digital speedo. It does work , but I got the VSS now


      91 Speedo vs Late 93+. Notice they appear interchangeable. Read threads below regarding this.







      Modified by sdezego at 9:29 PM 6-18-2008

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    3. Member sdezego's Avatar
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      '90 Corrado | '62 Harley Panhead
      02-14-2007 10:24 PM #2
      EDIT: Removed irrelevant content here. Place holder for possible Comprehensive Summary as time permits.

    4. 02-14-2007 11:20 PM #3
      Quote, originally posted by sdezego »
      BTW: if anyone has a VSS from a 91-92 G60 (AYL) trans, IM me. I am still trying to find out if they were different for G60 SLC.
      The final drives were different, so I assumed the VSS is different as well.

      i have swapped 16V ones with VR ones

    5. Member Shinny_G60's Avatar
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      02-15-2007 04:02 AM #4
      Am i going to have problems swapping an early style 93 rado cluster into my '90 when i do my vr swap? is the rpm's going to be correct....i didnt really think of this until now...damn

    6. Member sdezego's Avatar
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      '90 Corrado | '62 Harley Panhead
      02-15-2007 08:22 AM #5
      Quote, originally posted by Shinny_G60 »
      Am i going to have problems swapping an early style 93 rado cluster into my '90 when i do my vr swap? is the rpm's going to be correct....i didnt really think of this until now...damn

      RPM will be correct since the Cluster and Engine are Vr. You will have to make some wiring changes though as mentioned above, since the 90 cluster is different than the 93 (Mech vs Digital, Turn indicators, Coolant light etc).
      S

    7. 02-15-2007 10:31 AM #6
      Quote, originally posted by sdezego »
      Here is a silly question then. Does the VSS just screw onto the drive unit (Never had one apart before). Meaning, can I just unscrew (Or acquire) the VSS portion and screw it onto a mechanical Speedo Drive unit?
      S

      yes

    8. Member sdezego's Avatar
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      '90 Corrado | '62 Harley Panhead
      02-15-2007 10:34 AM #7
      Well, I should have went with my instinct in feeling that VW would have never swapped the Positive lead #30 with a sensor wire, but I cautiously trusted the Bentley. THE BENTLEY IS WRONG
      It you follow the circuit diagrams in the Bentley (pg 131, 164, etc), it shows that they swapped Pin 11 and 17 (Oil Temp Sender and + Term30) after '92. THIS IS WRONG and I think they mixed up the labels for T28/11 (U2/11) and T28/17 (U1/1) on the Cluster Diagram. I physically verified this is wrong and was the reason the Oil Temp was screwed. Luckily no damage resulted..

      I updated the diagram to reflect. This is Good though and it means that you can physically plug any cluster into any year (but need to wire up additional features for Late into early like VSS, TurnSignal LEDs changes, etc).


      Modified by sdezego at 10:36 AM 2-15-2007

    9. 02-15-2007 10:42 AM #8
      Quote, originally posted by sdezego »
      . This is Good though and it means that you can physically plug any cluster into any year (but need to wire up additional features for Late into early like VSS, TurnSignal LEDs changes, etc).

      that is what i have found also
      you need to have the correct harness with the cluster
      but they will plug in and work somewhat with the wrong harness

    10. 02-15-2007 10:49 AM #9
      Quote, originally posted by sdezego »
      [IMG]http://*****************.com/smile/emthup.gif[/IMG] I still need to see why the Ext temp is reading 122*F. I am assuming this is the max which means a grnd fault?? as mentioned, same thing with either ext sensor (G60 or Vr)

      i assume that's what it means, when mine is unplugged it goes to -40

    11. Member fstedie's Avatar
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      1992 Corrado SLC
      02-15-2007 11:28 AM #10
      what about the differences in going from a '92 VR6 to '93+ cluster?
      Everything I know about cars I learned by fixing things on my Corrado

    12. Member KMScorrado's Avatar
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      '95 M3, '14 Edition30 GLI
      02-15-2007 01:19 PM #11
      92 vr looks like a g60, white needles and lettering, 93+ is green lettering with orange needles and says "corrado" right on the dash which i love looking at personally...

    13. Forum Elder SLC4EVER's Avatar
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      02-15-2007 01:31 PM #12
      Quote, originally posted by KMScorrado »
      93+ is green lettering with orange needles and says "corrado" right on the dash which i love looking at personally...


      The lettering is white as well.
      Dak
      I drive waaay too fast to worry about my cholesterol.

    14. Member YellowZonker's Avatar
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      02-15-2007 02:26 PM #13
      I have 3. One "accedentally" came with the trans I had put in my car when we did the engine swap. I also have access to 3 C's in the salvage yard.
      I sent you email (PDF) of the findings I found when I experimented with a cluster similar.

    15. Member YellowZonker's Avatar
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      87 16V Scirocco, 90 G60 Corrado
      02-15-2007 02:28 PM #14
      The VSS does screw onto where the mechanical cable went.
      I found this out when I had no speedo, I thought I'd pull on it and it moved a little, so I unscrewed it and it came right off. The cable fits right on where the VSS used to be.

    16. Member the_mad_rabbit's Avatar
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      02-15-2007 03:37 PM #15
      Awesome!
      Thank you for that diagram- it will be used well
      All up in your harble, stealing your internets.
      "Life is like a bad margarita with good tequila, I thought as I poured whiskey onto my granola and faced a new day"
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    17. Member sdezego's Avatar
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      '90 Corrado | '62 Harley Panhead
      02-15-2007 03:51 PM #16
      I just checked the Cluster PDF that you sent and it is correct. It basically emulates the T28 (1-28 Pin) cluster plug in the Bentley for 91-92. There is a table that pretty much matches yours starting on page 90.2 (for '90) and 90.20 for 91-92. It does show that Pin 28 is typically used for the Trans Range Selection, so that might be the answer on that question that I had
      The problem is that the Bentley never published such a 1-28 table (as mentioned above) for the 93+ cluster (not even in the supplements) and I did not want to make the assumption that everything was the same. So, I was reliant on going through the Circuit diagrams and following the current paths from the cluster (T28) to the fuse box (plugs U1 and U2) and then to the sensors and such. This is where there is discrepancy in the Bentley.
      The pinouts/functions that I have posted above are correct and jive with your PDF and the Bentley for the 91-92 clusters.

    18. Member sdezego's Avatar
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      '90 Corrado | '62 Harley Panhead
      02-15-2007 03:55 PM #17
      Quote, originally posted by fstedie »
      what about the differences in going from a '92 VR6 to '93+ cluster?

      Just the looks really. You would also likely loose the the Fuel Mileage on the MFA unless you switched to Coil Pack and used the Coil Pack ECU. Remember the 92 still have the MAP on the back of the cluster.

      I'll Post a pic here in a bit just for reference.

    19. Member sdezego's Avatar
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      '90 Corrado | '62 Harley Panhead
      02-15-2007 04:02 PM #18
      Late Cluster

      Pic by AudiSnapr (who I bought it off and Good Seller by the way):

    20. Member ownerizer's Avatar
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      02-15-2007 05:17 PM #19
      I tried to figure this out, but is there a straight swap from a mechanical to digital cluster for G60s?

    21. Member sdezego's Avatar
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      '90 Corrado | '62 Harley Panhead
      02-15-2007 06:51 PM #20
      91-92 Corrado G60 Cluster into a 90 is about as straight as a swap as you can get. You still have to add and wire in the VSS and rearrange the Turn indicator LEDs.
      Shawn

    22. Member KMScorrado's Avatar
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      02-16-2007 12:59 AM #21
      Quote, originally posted by SLC4EVER »

      The lettering is white as well.

      yeah your right, i just envisioned it in my mind lit up at night....

    23. 02-16-2007 02:50 AM #22
      you need a 16v cluster so it reads till at least 7K, what year did they make those until?
      can I add the front light section from a B4 cluster so I have a CEL?

    24. Member sdezego's Avatar
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      '90 Corrado | '62 Harley Panhead
      02-16-2007 09:32 AM #23
      Quote, originally posted by all-starr-me »
      can I add the front light section from a B4 cluster so I have a CEL?

      The Front idiot Lights are just separate LEDs that plug right into the PCB. There is a plastic shroud that clip over the light banks and has little pop out plugs to hide the empty spots. The cluster may have provision for extra light(s) as the circuitry is there for some (if not all) of the empty slots. You could add your own and at worst case. Just add your own wires and run them out of the side or back of the cluster separately. I think some models of the era (maybe Europe) had an Oxy light and some may have even used a service light or Glowplug Light, so the provisions may be there and just need to add a lead to the T28 plug Pin#20 (based on the ref manual that YellowZonker sent me).
      I was actually going to look at this next because i want to add a KnockLight from KnockSense.
      Shawn

    25. Member sdezego's Avatar
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      '90 Corrado | '62 Harley Panhead
      02-17-2007 11:33 PM #24
      Quick update.
      1.) I added an extra Dash LED as we were talking about above. I will be using for KnockSense as a Knock indicator light. I verified that if you add a wire to T28/20 (position 20) it is the Negative trigger for the LED socket to the right of the Batt. Go to RadioShack and get an assorted pack of LEDs for a couple of bux and just plug in one of the long lead LEDs. They are directional as you may know.
      2.) Tapped the Blinker wires @ the fuse box for the Dash LEDs. The wires (Bk/G and Bk/W) are easy to get to on the back of the fuse box, since Plug "K" is right at the bottom. No Need to even drop the Fuse Box.
      3.) Connected up the Low Coolant Light. This was easier than I thought once I studied the Bentley a bit. If you have a '90 and are switching to any cluster 91+, you need to remove relay #5. The is the Low coolant relay only used on '90s. There is a spade connection labeled S2 or 2/S and is the only one oriented differently. You basically just need to plug a spade connector into the fuse box in this spot and run a wire T28/2 as shown on the table above.
      4.) Tested hooking up the the Fuel Consumption, but haven't checked to see if it is correct. Not really worried about this, but it is fun to play with
      Hope someone finds this crap useful besides me.
      S
      EDIT: Pic added to show LED and dead plug in LED shroud.
      Notice you can plug in an LED into the spot to the right of the Batt Idiot light? This is driven by the T28/20 as mentioned above.




      Modified by sdezego at 9:36 PM 6-18-2008

    26. 02-18-2007 10:29 AM #25
      Quote, originally posted by sdezego »
      3.) Connected up the Low Coolant Light. This was easier than I thought once I studied the Bentley a bit. If you have a '90 and are switching to any cluster 91+, you need to remove relay #5. The is the Low coolant relay only used on '90s. There is a spade connection labeled S2 or 2/S and is the only one oriented differently. You basically just need to plug a spade connector into the fuse box in this spot and run a wire T28/2 as shown on the table above.

      Hell yeah, i owe you a few [IMG]http://*****************.com/smile/emthup.gif[/IMG]
      That stupic coolant light has been flashing at me for years

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