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    Thread: check out this compressor map and tell me what you think

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      08-18-2008 11:33 AM #51
      That's very helpful. Let me see what I can do as far as building a map to your specs (2.0L 8000+ RPMs.)
      The Bible Teaches That Few are Saved. Why Hell Must Be Eternal. Scientific Evidence for God. "The perverse are hard to be corrected, and the number of fools is infinite." (Ecclesiastes 1:15).

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    3. 08-18-2008 11:42 AM #52
      Thanks a bunch. You basically made this one hell of a useful thread for the forum

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      08-18-2008 11:53 AM #53
      [IMG]http://*****************.com/smile/emthup.gif[/IMG] Glad to help. Working on your specs as we speak.
      The Bible Teaches That Few are Saved. Why Hell Must Be Eternal. Scientific Evidence for God. "The perverse are hard to be corrected, and the number of fools is infinite." (Ecclesiastes 1:15).

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      08-18-2008 12:22 PM #54
      Quote, originally posted by cincyTT »
      So im looking for the green one vs how it compares to the red plot. If you can compare the 2 with the specs above would be great

      Here is the green and red map overlaid with your flow requirements (82.5mm bore x 92.8mm stroke = 1.984cc). Both of these turbos are better suited to the 2.0L displacement. The (green map) turbo would be better with the stock limiter or even raised to 7200 RPMs. The (red map) turbo suits this setup quite nicely with the rev. limiter raised above 7200 RPMs and is good to about 8500 - 9000 RPMs.
      The Bible Teaches That Few are Saved. Why Hell Must Be Eternal. Scientific Evidence for God. "The perverse are hard to be corrected, and the number of fools is infinite." (Ecclesiastes 1:15).

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      08-18-2008 12:27 PM #55
      Quote, originally posted by cincyTT »
      this link has 3 varients of the hx40

      I will try to do the HX40 variants later today if I have the time. [IMG]http://*****************.com/smile/emthup.gif[/IMG]


      Modified by mainstayinc at 11:49 AM 8-18-2008
      The Bible Teaches That Few are Saved. Why Hell Must Be Eternal. Scientific Evidence for God. "The perverse are hard to be corrected, and the number of fools is infinite." (Ecclesiastes 1:15).

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      08-18-2008 02:53 PM #56
      very interested in hx40 comparison... [IMG]http://*****************.com/smile/emthup.gif[/IMG]
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      08-18-2008 03:05 PM #57
      how about a GT3582R on std stroke, 83mm bore.
      what would be the projected spool?
      thanks
      bil
      GT35R, Full-Race, DTA S60, SEM, WMI, 8 injectors, SQS Transmission, 1000kg car, >500bhp, Racecar (circuit)
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      08-18-2008 03:08 PM #58
      i can make a video of hx35 on a stock displacement 1.8t if you guys want it. my speedometer doesnt work but you can see the spool lol. it spools way better on pump gas though because i havent messed with the timing in unisettings yet. on pump i get 25psi by around 4700 and i pulls all the way to the limiter at 8200 even with stock cams.
      -87 Golf GT, built BT 1.8t [email protected] 1.96 60' [email protected] pump gas (sold/parted out)
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    11. 08-18-2008 03:14 PM #59
      ^ please!!

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      08-18-2008 03:17 PM #60
      Quote, originally posted by badger5 »
      how about a GT3582R on std stroke, 83mm bore.
      what would be the projected spool?

      Here is your custom map for an 83mm bore and 86.4mm (standard) stroke at 1870cc's overlaid to the GT3582R (aka GT35R). Projected spool will be a little later than the previous analysis of the 2.0L coming in around 3100 RPMs.




      Modified by mainstayinc at 12:48 PM 8-18-2008
      The Bible Teaches That Few are Saved. Why Hell Must Be Eternal. Scientific Evidence for God. "The perverse are hard to be corrected, and the number of fools is infinite." (Ecclesiastes 1:15).

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      08-18-2008 03:24 PM #61
      you guys better start paying this man

    14. 08-18-2008 03:47 PM #62
      Half these combinations are surge city or super late boost onset. Some are both and will boost really late and still require a programmable boost controller that can help prevent full spool to avoid surge.
      What % VE are you using to plot these RPM lines? It's probably worse than plotted if you are using just the displacement .

      Don't forget diesel turbos don't like high exhaust gas temperatures and the 1.8T will generate some seriously high EGT's.


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      08-18-2008 04:06 PM #63
      Thankyou Sir - you are a gent [IMG]http://*****************.com/smile/emthup.gif[/IMG]
      much appreciated
      GT35R, Full-Race, DTA S60, SEM, WMI, 8 injectors, SQS Transmission, 1000kg car, >500bhp, Racecar (circuit)
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      08-18-2008 04:07 PM #64
      Quote, originally posted by enginerd »
      What % VE are you using to plot these RPM lines? It's probably worse than plotted if you are using just the displacement .

      I am using a VE of 0.95, which is an accurate estimation for a 5 valve engine. With positive pressure (boost), volumetric efficiency can exceed 1.0.
      The spreadsheet calculates the air flow requirements for the specified displacement at different RPMs and P2/P1 values. It's actually very simply math, as you probably know. Then, I convert CFM to lbs./min or whatever you want to see. I can also convert to M^3/sec., which is common in Europe (Germany). The maps are absolutely acurate as to the air flow requirements (RPM lines).
      Quote, originally posted by enginerd »
      Half these combinations are surge city or super late boost onset. Some are both and will boost really late and still require a programmable boost controller that can help prevent full spool to avoid surge.

      If you read some of the previous responses, I point that out and recommend increasing displacement or rev. limiter, especially with the Holset and GT35R. This is also why I will be installing nothing larger than a GT28R, since I don't plan on increasing bottom end or rev. limiter.


      Modified by mainstayinc at 2:31 PM 8-18-2008
      The Bible Teaches That Few are Saved. Why Hell Must Be Eternal. Scientific Evidence for God. "The perverse are hard to be corrected, and the number of fools is infinite." (Ecclesiastes 1:15).

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      08-18-2008 04:09 PM #65
      Quote, originally posted by badger5 »
      Thankyou Sir - you are a gent
      much appreciated

      No problem. [IMG]http://*****************.com/smile/emthup.gif[/IMG]


      Modified by mainstayinc at 1:11 PM 8-18-2008
      The Bible Teaches That Few are Saved. Why Hell Must Be Eternal. Scientific Evidence for God. "The perverse are hard to be corrected, and the number of fools is infinite." (Ecclesiastes 1:15).

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      08-18-2008 04:28 PM #66
      Quote, originally posted by enginerd »
      Don't forget diesel turbos don't like high exhaust gas temperatures and the 1.8T will generate some seriously high EGT's.

      Since diesels produce much higher cylinder pressures (as compared to spark ignition), exhaust gas temps will be similarly high. This shouldn't be a concern. Also, the turbos on diesel engines are designed for much higher boost pressures since there is no practical limit to the amount of boost you can make in a diesel. If anything, putting a diesel turbo on your spark ignition will give you some insurance.
      Also, a lot of these guys run water-methane injection (I plan to anyway). This will help keep EGTs down.
      The Bible Teaches That Few are Saved. Why Hell Must Be Eternal. Scientific Evidence for God. "The perverse are hard to be corrected, and the number of fools is infinite." (Ecclesiastes 1:15).

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      08-18-2008 05:36 PM #67
      Quote, originally posted by hyperformancevw »
      very interested in hx40 comparison... [IMG]http://*****************.com/smile/emthup.gif[/IMG]

      Here is the HX40-B8554M. Please note that this map is overlaid with air flow requirements for a 2.0L (82.5mm bore x 92.8mm stroke) for a total of 1984 CCs. Comparison with the HE35 to come.

      EDIT: Here are the two Holsets compared and overlaid with the above flow requirements (1984 CCs). Please note that there are two other versions of the HX40 with different compressor maps. I will do these in the future when I get some time.

      The HE35 is larger up top as compared to the HX40.


      Modified by mainstayinc at 2:31 PM 10-10-2008
      The Bible Teaches That Few are Saved. Why Hell Must Be Eternal. Scientific Evidence for God. "The perverse are hard to be corrected, and the number of fools is infinite." (Ecclesiastes 1:15).

    20. 08-19-2008 08:47 AM #68
      Quote, originally posted by mainstayinc »
      Since diesels produce much higher cylinder pressures (as compared to spark ignition), exhaust gas temps will be similarly high. This shouldn't be a concern. Also, the turbos on diesel engines are designed for much higher boost pressures since there is no practical limit to the amount of boost you can make in a diesel. If anything, putting a diesel turbo on your spark ignition will give you some insurance.
      Also, a lot of these guys run water-methane injection (I plan to anyway). This will help keep EGTs down.

      Diesel engines run 400F lower EGT's. They don't like the 1700 - 1800F EGT's that the 1.8T can generate. The burn takes place in the cylinder rather than partially in the exhaust. Generous EGR (water cooled on new tier 4 engines), and excessive airflow cool the egt's on a diesel.
      I regularly see 1750 EGT's pre turbo on my stg III+ at the track and even touched over 1800 when running a bit lean. Water / meth does little for exhaust temps (I have an aquamist kit), high concentrations of methanol can actually increase EGT's.
      regardless of pressure ratio the bearing sections on the turbos are not designed to run these high temperatures and will suffer a seal or bearing failure prematurely compared to a borg warner or garret turbo designed for 1850 - 1900F temperatures.
      You guys can try to build cheap turbo kits with massively oversized and mis matched turbos but you will end up with mediocre setups hitting boost 1000 rpm later than desired, and top ends limited by the balance of your setup. It's worth the extra money for a better matching turbo. You will enjoy driving it more.

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      08-19-2008 10:10 AM #69
      Quote, originally posted by enginerd »
      Diesel engines run 400F lower EGT's. They don't like the 1700 - 1800F EGT's that the 1.8T can generate. The burn takes place in the cylinder rather than partially in the exhaust. Generous EGR (water cooled on new tier 4 engines), and excessive airflow cool the egt's on a diesel.

      Turbo diesels can be pushed to very high boost levels and, therefore, can experience very high EGTs. Your statement may be true for non-turbocharged diesels, but does not apply to boosted applications. Also, technology to reduce EGTs in diesel engines has more to do with emmisions control and reducing oxides of nitrogen that form at higher combustion temps. than with efficient operation. The fact is that diesels run more efficiently at higher operating temps. The hotter the better.
      Quote, originally posted by enginerd »
      regardless of pressure ratio the bearing sections on the turbos are not designed to run these high temperatures and will suffer a seal or bearing failure prematurely compared to a borg warner or garret turbo designed for 1850 - 1900F temperatures.

      Holset designs their turbos with generously sized bearings, watercooled housing options and a variety of turbine housing materials to suit different temperature demands (see below). The fact is that Holset designs their turbos to run at high temperatures without premature seal or bearing failure. I contacted Holset in the UK and asked them about safe temperature ranges which their turbos may operate. Their response should address the concerns you raised.
      http://www.holset.co.uk/files/...0.php
      Quote, originally posted by Holset HX40 »
      Developed for 7 to 10 litre engines operating in the medium/light heavy automotive sector this Holset turbocharger has many of the features found in the Holset heavy-duty range of products.
      Generously sized bearings with watercooled housing options for applications with highly cyclic operations support a recently upgraded set of aerodynamic components.
      STANDARD FEATURES:
      Choice of turbine housing materials to cover a wide range of temperatures.
      High pressure ratio capability

      Quote, originally posted by enginerd »
      I regularly see 1750 EGT's pre turbo on my stg III+ at the track and even touched over 1800 when running a bit lean. Water / meth does little for exhaust temps (I have an aquamist kit), high concentrations of methanol can actually increase EGT's.

      Please provide empirical data on your setup comparing WAI on v. WAI off and correct for differences in boost levels. It is a known fact that WAI can reduce EGTs by upwards of 200 degr. F.
      Quote, originally posted by enginerd »
      You guys can try to build cheap turbo kits with massively oversized and mis matched turbos but you will end up with mediocre setups hitting boost 1000 rpm later than desired, and top ends limited by the balance of your setup. It's worth the extra money for a better matching turbo. You will enjoy driving it more.

      If you look at the compressor maps on page one (1) of this thread, you will see that the HE35 is comparable to the GT35R. Further, the HE35 has been proven (on page 2 of this thread) to be on the larger side of the Holsets. The HX40 would be less than comparable (smaller) than the GT35R. Also, no one intends to run the HE35 without either increasing displacement or rev. limit. The compressor maps with the RPM lines and the discussion thread clearly prove that.


      Modified by mainstayinc at 7:44 AM 8-20-2008
      The Bible Teaches That Few are Saved. Why Hell Must Be Eternal. Scientific Evidence for God. "The perverse are hard to be corrected, and the number of fools is infinite." (Ecclesiastes 1:15).

    22. 08-19-2008 11:10 AM #70
      my god, this man is a legend.
      How about a Gt2871 on a 92.8x35mm stroke bore 2008cc engine?
      would love to see what it looks like as I guessed at efficiency based on the 1.8 map.
      thanks

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      08-19-2008 11:38 AM #71
      Quote, originally posted by jc_bb »
      How about a Gt2871 on a 92.8x35mm stroke bore 2008cc engine?
      would love to see what it looks like as I guessed at efficiency based on the 1.8 map.

      Since you didn't specify the trim level, I will post the 48, 52 and 56 trim version of the GT2871, since I already have those on file. Also, I assume that you mean 92.8mm stroke x 83mm bore (2008 CCs).



      At this displacement and with stock rev. limiter, the 52 or 56 trim turbo would be a better choice. The 48 trim peak efficiency at this displacement (at about 4100 RPMs) is too low to comfortably get you into the higher revs.
      EDIT: The 52 trim would be the best choice for this setup, since you get good spoolup down low and plenty up top. It also has the highest P2/P1 (boost) potential out of all the GT2871s. Hope this helps.


      Modified by mainstayinc at 9:09 AM 8-19-2008
      The Bible Teaches That Few are Saved. Why Hell Must Be Eternal. Scientific Evidence for God. "The perverse are hard to be corrected, and the number of fools is infinite." (Ecclesiastes 1:15).

    24. 08-19-2008 12:08 PM #72
      yeah, 83mm (doh!)
      i have a .56 trim.
      that looks great, thanks for that

    25. 08-19-2008 12:11 PM #73
      how does the difference in the height of the graph on the 52 vs 56 trim (taking it higher on the pressure ratio axis) affect the output?

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      08-19-2008 12:15 PM #74
      Quote, originally posted by jc_bb »
      yeah, 83mm (doh!)
      i have a .56 trim.
      that looks great, thanks for that

      Pretty good choice for having to guess at your setup. Although I would have chose the 52 trim, the 56 trim is a little more efficienct up top (notice how the lines to the right of the peak efficiency line **dotted vertical line** are flatter on the 56 as compared to the 52).


      Modified by mainstayinc at 9:23 AM 8-19-2008
      The Bible Teaches That Few are Saved. Why Hell Must Be Eternal. Scientific Evidence for God. "The perverse are hard to be corrected, and the number of fools is infinite." (Ecclesiastes 1:15).

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      08-19-2008 12:22 PM #75
      Quote, originally posted by jc_bb »
      how does the difference in the height of the graph on the 52 vs 56 trim (taking it higher on the pressure ratio axis) affect the output?

      It only effects output indirectly. Even though the 56 cannot produce as much maximum boost, it can produce more corrected air flow than the 52. What matters is the amount of corrected air flow (moving to the right of the map) and not the amount of boost (moving upward).
      If you look at the vertical red line below, you will notice that it intersects with the x-axis (corrected air flow) at about 34 lbs./min. The horizontal lines depict the speed of the compressor. The 52 is capable of producing 34 lbs./min of corrected air flow (about 340 hp) at each of the compressor speeds. However, it produces this amount most efficiently where it intersects the **dotted vertical line** which is not at the highest speed line (maximum boost).



      Modified by mainstayinc at 10:50 AM 8-19-2008
      The Bible Teaches That Few are Saved. Why Hell Must Be Eternal. Scientific Evidence for God. "The perverse are hard to be corrected, and the number of fools is infinite." (Ecclesiastes 1:15).

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