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    Thread: check out this compressor map and tell me what you think

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      08-26-2019 10:26 AM #801
      Quote Originally Posted by crousti View Post
      I was interested in a comparison of the g25 660 and the g30 660 too . Same compressor, (way) bigger turbine ?

      G25 660 turbine flow:
      https://www.garrettmotion.com/wp-con...ow-G25-1-1.jpg


      Atp has the g30 660 turbine flow:
      https://www.atpturbo.com/info/g30turbineflowmap.jpg


      Basically the biggest g25 is just around 20lb/min at 1.5 pressure ratio, which is the same as the second smaller g30 660 (.83) does. And then, it comes in 1.01 and 1.21 A/R flavor .

      The biggest difference i can see in these maps is that the G25 kind of chokes at 1.5 ratio, while it does not happen before a 2.5 ratio on the g30.

      My conclusion is that the g25 660 is a 60lbs turbo for small engines (up to 2.5L), while the g30 is for bigger engines (3L+ ).


      This is only my reading based on what i know about turbos, so i'd be happy if someone could confirm it (or explain why it is wrong)
      Thanks for the info. Talking about turbine maps, it's interesting to note that turbine efficiency is lower for the new G-Series turbos (G30-660, G30-770, G30/35-900 and G35-1050) as compared to the "RS" turbine of the slightly older GTX3584RS at 74% vs. 78% maximum efficiency (see below). That means that the "RS" turbine is able to extract more power out of the exhaust energy to drive the compressor as compared to the new G-Series. However, the new G-Series compressors are more efficient than the GTX3584RS.

      New G-Series turbine map:



      GTX3584RS turbine map:

      The Bible Teaches That Few are Saved. Why Hell Must Be Eternal. Scientific Evidence for God. "The perverse are hard to be corrected, and the number of fools is infinite." (Ecclesiastes 1:15).

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    3. 09-04-2019 07:42 PM #802
      Quote Originally Posted by mainstayinc View Post
      Awesome! Love that torque curve. The WMI should give you a nice increase in torque and HP. Thanks for posting.
      Hi mate. Just want to check your opinion about how much increase in gains I would have if I change my existing G25-660 (92ar) to the new Garret G30-770 (83ar) if I do it as plug and play, of course do some software correction but overall?


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      09-05-2019 08:36 AM #803
      Quote Originally Posted by matheria View Post
      Hi mate. Just want to check your opinion about how much increase in gains I would have if I change my existing G25-660 (92ar) to the new Garret G30-770 (83ar) if I do it as plug and play, of course do some software correction but overall?


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      Let me check into that. You are 2480 CC's, correct?
      The Bible Teaches That Few are Saved. Why Hell Must Be Eternal. Scientific Evidence for God. "The perverse are hard to be corrected, and the number of fools is infinite." (Ecclesiastes 1:15).

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    6. 09-05-2019 09:09 AM #804
      Quote Originally Posted by mainstayinc View Post
      Let me check into that. You are 2480 CC's, correct?
      Yes if you remember my post about G25 - 660 vs K16 and after I also post a Dyno on G25-660 (92) on 2.5 TFSI


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    7. 09-05-2019 09:10 AM #805
      Quote Originally Posted by mainstayinc View Post
      Awesome! Love that torque curve. The WMI should give you a nice increase in torque and HP. Thanks for posting.
      That’s post


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      09-05-2019 04:40 PM #806
      Hello mainstayinc, not gonna lie searching for info on comparison between G25-660 and EFR's brought me here.

      Long story short: I'm building a Nissan for a local Touring car championship and I'm trying to decide what Turbo to run.

      The engine is Nissan SR20 with a VVL(similar to Hondas VTEC) head from a JDM car.
      Capacity is 1998cc, the cams are I264/E268 E10,7/E10,3.
      Will run on E85 with CR of 9.5:1.
      The goal is to run reliable 500hp without pushing the turbo too much with room for higher horsepower if you remove the restrictor ~600hp.
      Intake is restricted with a 50mm restrictor not further than 47mm from the impeller if the impeller size is larger than 48mm, see below.



      Planning to have a twin scroll T4 Manifold or a V-band manifold

      I'm undecided between these options:

      T4 Manifold
      Garrett G25-660 877895-5012S A/R0.92 with IWG welded shut
      BorgWarner EFR7670 179392 A/R1.05 EWG
      BorgWarner EFR7670 179390 A/R0.90 IWG welded shut

      V-Band Manifold
      BorgWarner EFR7163 A/R0.85
      Garrett G25-660 871389-5011S A/R0.92

      Pro's of a Twin Scroll slightly faster spool, but wouldn't be as much of a deal since road racing still is mostly up high in the revs.
      Pro's of a V-band, takes up less space, easier to work on.

      I would appreciate your input on these turbos, or maybe even there is some turbo that suits this setup even better that I have forgotten about.

      Not a brilliant picture of a car in not a brilliant state of build.

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      09-05-2019 04:41 PM #807
      Quote Originally Posted by matheria View Post
      Hi mate. Just want to check your opinion about how much increase in gains I would have if I change my existing G25-660 (92ar) to the new Garret G30-770 (83ar) if I do it as plug and play, of course do some software correction but overall?


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      Below I overlaid the G25-660 and G30-770 on 2.5L displacement. As you can see, the surge line (left side of map) comes in 200 to 400 RPMs later for the G30-770 as compared to the smaller G25-660. I marked a point corresponding to P2/P1=2.8 or about 26 psi and 7000 RPMs producing about 70 lbs. of air per minute or 700 HP on pump/race gas. So, if you are willing to give up a few hundred RPMs in spoolup, you can gain an additional 100 to 150 HP with the G30-770 on 2.5L displacement without too much effort. IMO I would upgrade to the G30-770 over the G25-660 at your displacement.

      The Bible Teaches That Few are Saved. Why Hell Must Be Eternal. Scientific Evidence for God. "The perverse are hard to be corrected, and the number of fools is infinite." (Ecclesiastes 1:15).

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      09-07-2019 11:29 AM #808
      Quote Originally Posted by waldmenz View Post
      Hello mainstayinc, not gonna lie searching for info on comparison between G25-660 and EFR's brought me here.

      Long story short: I'm building a Nissan for a local Touring car championship and I'm trying to decide what Turbo to run.

      The engine is Nissan SR20 with a VVL(similar to Hondas VTEC) head from a JDM car.
      Capacity is 1998cc, the cams are I264/E268 E10,7/E10,3.
      Will run on E85 with CR of 9.5:1.
      The goal is to run reliable 500hp without pushing the turbo too much with room for higher horsepower if you remove the restrictor ~600hp.
      Intake is restricted with a 50mm restrictor not further than 47mm from the impeller if the impeller size is larger than 48mm, see below.



      Planning to have a twin scroll T4 Manifold or a V-band manifold

      I'm undecided between these options:

      T4 Manifold
      Garrett G25-660 877895-5012S A/R0.92 with IWG welded shut
      BorgWarner EFR7670 179392 A/R1.05 EWG
      BorgWarner EFR7670 179390 A/R0.90 IWG welded shut

      V-Band Manifold
      BorgWarner EFR7163 A/R0.85
      Garrett G25-660 871389-5011S A/R0.92

      Pro's of a Twin Scroll slightly faster spool, but wouldn't be as much of a deal since road racing still is mostly up high in the revs.
      Pro's of a V-band, takes up less space, easier to work on.

      I would appreciate your input on these turbos, or maybe even there is some turbo that suits this setup even better that I have forgotten about.

      Not a brilliant picture of a car in not a brilliant state of build.
      Sorry I missed your post. Let met look into this and post back later today or Monday.

      -John (mainstayinc)
      The Bible Teaches That Few are Saved. Why Hell Must Be Eternal. Scientific Evidence for God. "The perverse are hard to be corrected, and the number of fools is infinite." (Ecclesiastes 1:15).

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      09-07-2019 07:08 PM #809
      Quote Originally Posted by waldmenz View Post
      Hello mainstayinc, not gonna lie searching for info on comparison between G25-660 and EFR's brought me here.

      Long story short: I'm building a Nissan for a local Touring car championship and I'm trying to decide what Turbo to run.

      The engine is Nissan SR20 with a VVL(similar to Hondas VTEC) head from a JDM car.
      Capacity is 1998cc, the cams are I264/E268 E10,7/E10,3.
      Will run on E85 with CR of 9.5:1.
      The goal is to run reliable 500hp without pushing the turbo too much with room for higher horsepower if you remove the restrictor ~600hp.
      Intake is restricted with a 50mm restrictor not further than 47mm from the impeller if the impeller size is larger than 48mm, see below.


      Planning to have a twin scroll T4 Manifold or a V-band manifold

      I'm undecided between these options:

      T4 Manifold
      Garrett G25-660 877895-5012S A/R0.92 with IWG welded shut
      BorgWarner EFR7670 179392 A/R1.05 EWG
      BorgWarner EFR7670 179390 A/R0.90 IWG welded shut


      V-Band Manifold
      BorgWarner EFR7163 A/R0.85
      Garrett G25-660 871389-5011S A/R0.92


      Pro's of a Twin Scroll slightly faster spool, but wouldn't be as much of a deal since road racing still is mostly up high in the revs.
      Pro's of a V-band, takes up less space, easier to work on.

      I would appreciate your input on these turbos, or maybe even there is some turbo that suits this setup even better that I have forgotten about.

      Not a brilliant picture of a car in not a brilliant state of build.
      I think any of those turbos can achieve your HP goals. I guess it comes down to preference for either a twin-scroll T4 setup or a V-band setup. I personally like twin-scroll setups because they increase engine volumetric efficiency. Less exhaust back pressure equals more room for fuel and air to fill the cylinder. It also means less heat in the cylinder. This allows for more timing, boost and lower octane. If done correctly, you an even increase your spool, mid-range and top end. Correctly means keeping the runners short even if they are not equal length. Some people may debate this last point, but this is the formula that I stand by. However, in your case, you are running E85 which is very tolerant of boost and timing. This mitigates some of the advantages of a twin-scroll setup.

      Below I overlaid the G25-660 (single scroll) and the EFR 7163 (twin scroll) with 2.0L displacement (86mm bore x 86mm stroke = 1998 CC's). Both turbos are capable of producing 60 lbs. of air per minute or 600 HP on pump/race gas and over 700 HP on E85. As you can see, the surge line (left side of map) for the EFR 7163 is 500 RPMs further to the left as compared to the G25-660. You can expect the twin-scroll EFR 7163 to spool 500 RPMs quicker than the single-scroll Garrett. However, expect the surge line for the T4 twin-scroll G25-660 (P/N 877895-5012S) to slightly out-perform the EFR 7163 due to the fact that it has a smaller compressor wheel and is probably lighter than the EFR 7163. I don't have a separate map for the T4 twin-scroll G25-660 but you get the idea.

      I marked two (2) points corresponding to the following:

      P2/P1=2.4 or about 20.3 psi at 6500 RPMs producing 45 lbs. of air per minute or 500+ HP on E85.
      P2/P1=2.75 or about 25.4 psi at 7000 RPMs producing 55 lbs. of air per minute or 600+ HP on E85



      Below I overlaid the G25-660 and the EFR 7670 with 2.0L displacement for comparison (both single scroll). The EFR 7670 is capable of just under 65 lbs. of air per minute or 650 HP on pump/race gas and 750+ HP on E85/ethanol and is one size too large IMO for your HP goals.



      In conclusion, I recommend either the G25-660 or the EFR7163 in T4 twin-scroll or even the V-band turbine housing (with the twin-scroll housing being the preferred option). Any one of these configurations will achieve your HP goals.
      The Bible Teaches That Few are Saved. Why Hell Must Be Eternal. Scientific Evidence for God. "The perverse are hard to be corrected, and the number of fools is infinite." (Ecclesiastes 1:15).

    12. 09-08-2019 05:44 PM #810
      Quote Originally Posted by mainstayinc View Post
      Below I overlaid the G25-660 and G30-770 on 2.5L displacement. As you can see, the surge line (left side of map) comes in 200 to 400 RPMs later for the G30-770 as compared to the smaller G25-660. I marked a point corresponding to P2/P1=2.8 or about 26 psi and 7000 RPMs producing about 70 lbs. of air per minute or 700 HP on pump/race gas. So, if you are willing to give up a few hundred RPMs in spoolup, you can gain an additional 100 to 150 HP with the G30-770 on 2.5L displacement without too much effort. IMO I would upgrade to the G30-770 over the G25-660 at your displacement.

      Thanks mate. Already buy one. Would change and post the Dyno


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      09-08-2019 06:17 PM #811
      Quote Originally Posted by matheria View Post
      Thanks mate. Already buy one. Would change and post the Dyno


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      Nice! Looking forward to dyno numbers.
      The Bible Teaches That Few are Saved. Why Hell Must Be Eternal. Scientific Evidence for God. "The perverse are hard to be corrected, and the number of fools is infinite." (Ecclesiastes 1:15).

    14. 09-11-2019 05:07 PM #812
      Hello mainstayinc,

      I am new to this forum.

      I have read all the pages, may you give me some advise?

      I would like to buy G25 for my 2.2L engine and it is limited to run around 15.7psi due to the 2 bar sensor.

      1. I want a quicker spool turbo, either smaller A/R or twin scroll can have quicker spool, but for 0.72 A/R Vband single scroll and 0.92 A/R T4 twin scroll, which one has quicker spool?

      2. And As you mentioned before, G25-550 have 400rpm faster spool than G25-600, how much peak power will be sacrificed by running G25-550 at 15.7psi boost?

      3. Should I go for external wastegate for better torque?

      Thank you in advance

      Regards,
      Batata
      Last edited by cipbatata; 09-11-2019 at 05:09 PM.

    15. 09-11-2019 05:10 PM #813
      Quote Originally Posted by mainstayinc View Post
      Nice! Looking forward to dyno numbers.
      Hello mainstayinc,

      I am new to this forum.

      I have read all the pages, may you give me some advise?

      I would like to buy G25 for my 2.2L engine and it is limited to run around 15.7psi due to the 2 bar sensor.

      1. I want a quicker spool turbo, either smaller A/R or twin scroll can have quicker spool, but for 0.72 A/R Vband single scroll and 0.92 A/R T4 twin scroll, which one has quicker spool?

      2. And As you mentioned before, G25-550 have 400rpm faster spool than G25-600, how much peak power will be sacrificed by running G25-550 at 15.7psi boost?

      3. Should I go for external wastegate for better torque?

      Thank you in advance

      Regards,
      Batata

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      09-11-2019 07:31 PM #814
      Quote Originally Posted by cipbatata View Post
      Hello mainstayinc,

      I am new to this forum.

      I have read all the pages, may you give me some advise?

      I would like to buy G25 for my 2.2L engine and it is limited to run around 15.7psi due to the 2 bar sensor.

      1. I want a quicker spool turbo, either smaller A/R or twin scroll can have quicker spool, but for 0.72 A/R Vband single scroll and 0.92 A/R T4 twin scroll, which one has quicker spool?

      2. And As you mentioned before, G25-550 have 400rpm faster spool than G25-600, how much peak power will be sacrificed by running G25-550 at 15.7psi boost?

      3. Should I go for external wastegate for better torque?

      Thank you in advance

      Regards,
      Batata
      Thanks for your interest.

      1. I don't have separate compressor maps for single scroll and twin scroll or even different A/R's for the same turbo. So, to answer your question, someone will have to do a back-to-back test to see which of those setups spools quicker.
      2. At P2/P1=2 or about 14.5 psi, the G25-550 maxes out at 46 lbs. per minute or 460 HP on pump/race gas at 7250 RPMs. You won't gain any more horsepower with the G25-660 unless you rev past 7250 RPMs. In that case, the G25-660 is able to produce 56 lbs. of air per minute or 560 HP on pump/race gas at 9000 RPMs. So, unless you plan to rev past 7250 RPMs, stick with the G25-550.
      3. For 14.5 psi boost, internal wastegate is fine. Anything above that I recommend external wastegate.
      The Bible Teaches That Few are Saved. Why Hell Must Be Eternal. Scientific Evidence for God. "The perverse are hard to be corrected, and the number of fools is infinite." (Ecclesiastes 1:15).

    17. 09-15-2019 05:32 AM #815
      Hello..

      I wonder what's the difference in spool and power between the gtx3076 already used now and the new garrett g30=900 that I'm think to upgrade.
      My car is an 2.0 Evo x and the engine Revving to 9200rpms.
      The turbine ex size is the same as I saw for both Turbos 55mm 60mm I wonder how is possible with only a bigger inducer the power climb so high...

      Thanks

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      09-16-2019 10:21 AM #816
      Quote Originally Posted by Evoxlimited View Post
      Hello..

      I wonder what's the difference in spool and power between the gtx3076 already used now and the new garrett g30=900 that I'm think to upgrade.
      My car is an 2.0 Evo x and the engine Revving to 9200rpms.
      The turbine ex size is the same as I saw for both Turbos 55mm 60mm I wonder how is possible with only a bigger inducer the power climb so high...

      Thanks
      Thanks for your interest. Below I overlaid the second generation GTX3076R and the new G35-900 on 2.0L displacement (86mm bore x 86mm stroke = 1998 CC's). Both turbos have a 76mm compressor exducer. As you can see, the surge lines (left side of map) are virtually identical for both turbos ranging from about 2000 to 3000 RPMs. So, you can expect both turbos to spool about the same with the second generation GTX3076R being slightly better. However, the choke line (right side of map) is way better for the G35-900 with maximum output at 82.5 lbs. of air per minute versus 67.5 for the GTX3076R. That's an additional 15 lbs. of air per minute for the G35-900 or 150 HP on pump/race gas for the same size 76mm compressor. I marked a point corresponding to P2/P1=3.0 or about 29 psi at 9200 RPMs producing 79 lbs. of air per minute on 2.0L displacement or about 790 HP on pump/race gas or 900+ HP on E85/ethanol.

      NOTE: The G30-900 and G35-900 have the same compressor map.

      The Bible Teaches That Few are Saved. Why Hell Must Be Eternal. Scientific Evidence for God. "The perverse are hard to be corrected, and the number of fools is infinite." (Ecclesiastes 1:15).

    19. 09-24-2019 05:12 AM #817
      I currently have a G30-900 0.83 on the way. looking at the post above comparing gtx3076 gen 2 and the G30-900. you compared the 35-900 instead of the G30-900 requested. I have a Mazda 6 MPS that is 2.4L I wondering how the 3076 compares to the G30-900 and how the G30-900 compares with G35-900. my redline is going to be set at 7800RPM. any advice on what I'd expect the spooling characteristics and max power is also appreciated

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      09-24-2019 09:52 AM #818
      Quote Originally Posted by yaji View Post
      I currently have a G30-900 0.83 on the way. looking at the post above comparing gtx3076 gen 2 and the G30-900. you compared the 35-900 instead of the G30-900 requested. I have a Mazda 6 MPS that is 2.4L I wondering how the 3076 compares to the G30-900 and how the G30-900 compares with G35-900. my redline is going to be set at 7800RPM. any advice on what I'd expect the spooling characteristics and max power is also appreciated
      As mentioned above, the G30-900 and G35-900 have the same compressor map.

      Quote Originally Posted by mainstayinc
      NOTE: The G30-900 and G35-900 have the same compressor map.
      You probably missed that from my previous post. So, unfortunately, there is no way to compare the G30-900 and the G35-900 at this time. What is the bore and stroke of your Mazda 6 MPS 2.4L? I was only able to find a reference to the 2.3L MZR I4 engine.
      The Bible Teaches That Few are Saved. Why Hell Must Be Eternal. Scientific Evidence for God. "The perverse are hard to be corrected, and the number of fools is infinite." (Ecclesiastes 1:15).

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      09-24-2019 11:31 AM #819
      Hey John.

      I know precision likes to keep maps hush hush, but do you have a map for a 6466

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      09-24-2019 11:51 AM #820
      Quote Originally Posted by Pat @ Pitt Soundworks View Post
      Hey John.

      I know precision likes to keep maps hush hush, but do you have a map for a 6466
      Hey Pat. Nice to hear from ya! The Precision 6466 looks like a pretty potent turbo. I checked around the internet and couldn't find any compressor maps or even the compressor exducer size (has 64mm inducer). Anyone have any more info on this turbo?
      The Bible Teaches That Few are Saved. Why Hell Must Be Eternal. Scientific Evidence for God. "The perverse are hard to be corrected, and the number of fools is infinite." (Ecclesiastes 1:15).

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      09-24-2019 12:01 PM #821
      Yeah they really don't like giving out details about their turbos. Is been out for about 5 years now, so I was hoping something surfaced.

      Compressor Wheel Exducer: 86.61mm
      Compressor Wheel Inducer: 64.39mm
      Compressor Housing Connections:
      Inlet: 4.0″ Hose Coupler (CCS)
      Outlet: 2.5″ Hose Coupler (CCS)
      Turbine Specifications
      Turbine Wheel Exducer: 66mm
      Turbine Wheel Inducer: 74.17mm

      The thing makes anywhere from 500-900whp on various engine displacements with full spool around 4000-4500 on 2.8-3l

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      09-24-2019 12:38 PM #822
      Quote Originally Posted by Pat @ Pitt Soundworks View Post
      Yeah they really don't like giving out details about their turbos. Is been out for about 5 years now, so I was hoping something surfaced.

      Compressor Wheel Exducer: 86.61mm
      Compressor Wheel Inducer: 64.39mm
      Compressor Housing Connections:
      Inlet: 4.0″ Hose Coupler (CCS)
      Outlet: 2.5″ Hose Coupler (CCS)
      Turbine Specifications
      Turbine Wheel Exducer: 66mm
      Turbine Wheel Inducer: 74.17mm

      The thing makes anywhere from 500-900whp on various engine displacements with full spool around 4000-4500 on 2.8-3l
      That's about one size above the GTX3584RS with a slightly larger compressor exducer (86.61mm vs. 84mm) and larger turbine wheel. Looks like that might be a good option in that HP range. Too bad no compressor map, though.
      The Bible Teaches That Few are Saved. Why Hell Must Be Eternal. Scientific Evidence for God. "The perverse are hard to be corrected, and the number of fools is infinite." (Ecclesiastes 1:15).

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      09-24-2019 02:08 PM #823
      I would bet they're pretty comparable in exhaust flow given the 3584rs is the latest aero and the 6466 was precision's gen2 exhaust aero. So slightly bigger turbine, slight bit laggier, but similar overall performance.

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      09-24-2019 04:43 PM #824
      Quote Originally Posted by Pat @ Pitt Soundworks View Post
      I would bet they're pretty comparable in exhaust flow given the 3584rs is the latest aero and the 6466 was precision's gen2 exhaust aero. So slightly bigger turbine, slight bit laggier, but similar overall performance.
      Cool. Impressive dyno results for the 6466 here.
      The Bible Teaches That Few are Saved. Why Hell Must Be Eternal. Scientific Evidence for God. "The perverse are hard to be corrected, and the number of fools is infinite." (Ecclesiastes 1:15).

    27. 09-25-2019 08:16 PM #825
      Hello!! I asked a while ago about choosing a turbo for my vw 2.0tsi gen2. I went as you recommended, with GTX3071r gen2 with twin scroll configuration and a short cast manifold. But I’m having trouble choosing the turbine AR. There is not much info about this, everyone telling me to go with the one in the middle, just to make things easier. But the fact is that I would like to know a little more about choosing the right AR. My goals are about 500 to 550 crank hp, and spinning 7k to red line. The options are .61, .78 or .84 for twin scroll and T3 flange. Any info would be priceless! Thanks you! Juan

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