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    Thread: check out this compressor map and tell me what you think

    1. Member
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      09-09-2008 11:32 AM #101
      Quote, originally posted by enginerd »
      regardless of pressure ratio the bearing sections on the turbos are not designed to run these high temperatures and will suffer a seal or bearing failure prematurely compared to a borg warner or garret turbo designed for 1850 - 1900F temperatures.
      You guys can try to build cheap turbo kits with massively oversized and mis matched turbos but you will end up with mediocre setups hitting boost 1000 rpm later than desired, and top ends limited by the balance of your setup. It's worth the extra money for a better matching turbo. You will enjoy driving it more.

      UPDATE: Limit Engineering, a Garrett performance distributer, returned my inquiry about the maximum operating temperature of Garrett ball bearing turbos. He states:
      Quote, originally posted by John C. Craig »
      There is not a pat answer to your question. There are many variables. The material that the turbine wheel and turbine housing are made, is it water cooled, the application. As a rule of thumb, for continuous operation with a GMR235 turbine wheel, we do not recommend that you exceed 1400 F.

      Regards,

      John C. Craig
      Limit Engineering, Inc.
      Performance Turbochargers
      928-453-7321
      928-453-0789 (FAX)
      Garrett Performance Distributor

      So, accoring to John at Limit Engineering, you should not exceed 1400 degr. F while using a Garrett turbo. This happens to be the same maximum operating temp. advised by Holset for their diesel turbos:
      Quote, originally posted by James Moorhouse »
      The maximum operating temperature of our turbochargers varies but they should not under any circumstances exceed 760° Celsius.
      If you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to ask
      Thank you
      James Moorhouse
      Marketing Co-ordinator
      Cummins Turbo Technologies Ltd
      St Andrew's Road
      Huddersfield
      HD1 6RA
      United Kingdom
      Tel +44 1484 832637
      Fax +44 1484 440385
      cummins.com/turbos

      760 degr. C is 1400 degr. F. So, based on the above statements, there is no difference in the recommended maximum operating temperature between the Holset and Garrett turbos. Therefore, the concerns you raised about using a diesel turbo on the 1.8T are a non-issue as far as bearing failure, etc. due to the high temps. that the 1.8T generates. Also, it is not true that Garrett turbos are designed for 1850 - 1900F temperatures, as the above statement makes clear.
      Quote, originally posted by enginerd »
      Diesel engines run 400F lower EGT's. They don't like the 1700 - 1800F EGT's that the 1.8T can generate. The burn takes place in the cylinder rather than partially in the exhaust. Generous EGR (water cooled on new tier 4 engines), and excessive airflow cool the egt's on a diesel.
      I regularly see 1750 EGT's pre turbo on my stg III+ at the track and even touched over 1800 when running a bit lean. Water / meth does little for exhaust temps (I have an aquamist kit), high concentrations of methanol can actually increase EGT's.

      EGT logs, please. Would like to verify.
      The Bible Teaches That Few are Saved. Why Hell Must Be Eternal. Scientific Evidence for God. "The perverse are hard to be corrected, and the number of fools is infinite." (Ecclesiastes 1:15).

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    3. Member TooLFan46n2's Avatar
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      09-09-2008 12:24 PM #102
      Would it be possible to post up a plot of a T3/T4 50 trim configuration. Preferably one with a smaller AR like .48 if you have the map. I'm looking for a T series with more a lil more top end than a super 60.
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      09-09-2008 12:39 PM #103
      Not a problem. I will search around for a compressor map later this afternoon and post.
      The Bible Teaches That Few are Saved. Why Hell Must Be Eternal. Scientific Evidence for God. "The perverse are hard to be corrected, and the number of fools is infinite." (Ecclesiastes 1:15).

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    6. 09-09-2008 01:04 PM #104
      Quote, originally posted by mainstayinc »
      Before I draw the same conclusion I would like to hear back from Garrett on this issue and see if they can verify your 1850 to 1900 degr. F range for thier GT turbos. Unfortunately, ATP Turbo was not helpful when I contacted their tech. deptartment.

      Apparently you havent dealt with ATP much if you're suprised about that

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      09-09-2008 01:50 PM #105
      No, I haven't dealt with them a lot in the past. When I tried to contact them about the max. op. temps., they were totally useless. Also, when I purchased my GT28R with T31 turbine housing last month, they sent me the wrong turbine housing. I had to send back and exchange for the correct housing. My project was, consequently, pushed back for three weeks because of their mistake.
      The Bible Teaches That Few are Saved. Why Hell Must Be Eternal. Scientific Evidence for God. "The perverse are hard to be corrected, and the number of fools is infinite." (Ecclesiastes 1:15).

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      09-09-2008 03:02 PM #106
      Quote, originally posted by TooLFan46n2 »
      Would it be possible to post up a plot of a T3/T4 50 trim configuration. Preferably one with a smaller AR like .48 if you have the map. I'm looking for a T series with more a lil more top end than a super 60.

      Here is the map you requested with standard displacement (81mm bore x 86.4mm stroke).

      Peak efficiency ranges from 3800 RPMs to 5500 RPMs depending on the pressure ratio. Surge line varies from 2000 RPM at P2/P1=1.6 (about 8.8 psi) to above 4000 RPMs. This turbo would not be an appropriate fit IMO at standard displacement or rev. limiter. Increase the rev. limiter and this turbo is good to about 8500 RPMs.

      Increase displacement to 2.0L (82.5mm bore x 92.8mm stroke) and you improve the surge limit by about 460 RPMs. Rev. limiter lowers to about 7500 RPMs.

      The T04E-50 is most closely related to the GT2876, which is not a very popular GT series turbo.

      Below is the T04E-40 AND T04E-46 for comparison.


      At standard displacement and rev. limiter, you may want to go with the T04E-40 or T04E-46 since it will give you a little more top end than the T3 Super 60 (see page 3 of discussion thread for map of the Super 60).


      Modified by mainstayinc at 12:06 PM 9-9-2008
      Last edited by mainstayinc; 11-11-2017 at 06:28 PM.
      The Bible Teaches That Few are Saved. Why Hell Must Be Eternal. Scientific Evidence for God. "The perverse are hard to be corrected, and the number of fools is infinite." (Ecclesiastes 1:15).

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      09-09-2008 03:19 PM #107
      bookmarked [IMG]http://*****************.com/smile/emthup.gif[/IMG]

    10. 09-09-2008 04:39 PM #108
      I run an EGT gauge on my stock turbo 1.8t. I'm running 18 PSI with a manual boost controller and all the bolt ons except an after market intercooler. The EGT's never get above 1200F, and that is running wide open throttle. Cruising, It is usually around 1100. Fully warmed up idle it rests around 850-900F.
      Also, I have a water/meth injection and it absolutely makes a difference in EGT's. If I'm spraying the meth, EGT's won't go over 1100 even after repeated abuse.
      I have VAG COM as well, so I can log EGT on that, but the sensor is no where near the exhaust manifold. My EGT probe is in the exhaust manifold, so I know I'm getting a good signal.



      Modified by middiesman at 4:44 PM 9-9-2008

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      09-09-2008 05:07 PM #109
      Quote, originally posted by middiesman »
      Also, I have a water/meth injection and it absolutely makes a difference in EGT's. If I'm spraying the meth, EGT's won't go over 1100 even after repeated abuse.

      That would confirm what I have read about water methanol. Enginerd claims that water/meth injection can actually increase EGTs in certain situations, but I have never heard this before.
      Quote, originally posted by enginerd »
      I regularly see 1750 EGT's pre turbo on my stg III+ at the track and even touched over 1800 when running a bit lean. Water / meth does little for exhaust temps (I have an aquamist kit), high concentrations of methanol can actually increase EGT's.

      Quote, originally posted by middiesman »
      I run an EGT gauge on my stock turbo 1.8t. I'm running 18 PSI with a manual boost controller and all the bolt ons except an after market intercooler. The EGT's never get above 1200F, and that is running wide open throttle. Cruising, It is usually around 1100. Fully warmed up idle it rests around 850-900F.

      That makes me think that even with Stage III+ running at, say 25 psi, 1750 to 1800 degr. F is highly unlikely. Perhaps someone with Stage III+ can verify enginerd's temps.
      The Bible Teaches That Few are Saved. Why Hell Must Be Eternal. Scientific Evidence for God. "The perverse are hard to be corrected, and the number of fools is infinite." (Ecclesiastes 1:15).

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      09-09-2008 05:22 PM #110
      Below are some comparisons of the T04E-40 and the T04E-46 with standard displacement. The T04E-40 is most closely compared to the 48 trim GT2871R.

      The T04E-46 is most closely compared to the 52 trim GT2871R.

      Notice, however, that in both cases the GT turbos are better in all categories, such as lower surge line and higher top end (see page 3 of discussion thread for maps of GT2871R 48 and 52 trim without overlay. Please note, however, that the maps on page 3 are for 2.0L displacement.)


      Modified by mainstayinc at 3:59 PM 12-12-2008
      The Bible Teaches That Few are Saved. Why Hell Must Be Eternal. Scientific Evidence for God. "The perverse are hard to be corrected, and the number of fools is infinite." (Ecclesiastes 1:15).

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      09-10-2008 10:47 AM #111
      Below is a comparison between the T04E-40 and GT28RS with standard displacement.

      Notice how both turbos have similar top ends (36 lbs/min for the RS and 37.2 bls/min for the 40). However, the surge line for the RS is 1100 RPMs lower at P2/P1=2.5 (about 22 psi) as compared to the 40.
      Despite the lower surge line, the RS still has a higher peak efficiency line (blue dotted line running upward to the right). This means that as the 40 passes its peak efficiency line (from about 3200 to 4200 RPMs), the RS can handle another 900 to 1000 RPMs before it reaches it's peak efficiency (from about 3500 to 5000 RPMs.
      It should be clear that the RS has a wider range of usable power as compared to the 40. Although the 40 is capable of producing higher boost levels (and nominally higher top end), it has a narrower band of usable power as compared to the RS.


      Modified by mainstayinc at 3:54 PM 10-29-2008
      The Bible Teaches That Few are Saved. Why Hell Must Be Eternal. Scientific Evidence for God. "The perverse are hard to be corrected, and the number of fools is infinite." (Ecclesiastes 1:15).

    14. Member AudiA4_18T's Avatar
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      09-23-2008 12:43 AM #112
      did anyone ever run this turbo?

    15. 09-24-2008 10:16 PM #113
      bookmarked [IMG]http://*****************.com/smile/emthup.gif[/IMG]

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      09-25-2008 10:29 PM #114
      Still taking requests. Please specify turbo and displacement (i.e.: standard displacement, 82.5mm x 92.8mm etc.). I can overlay different maps for comparison. Will check this thread periodically.
      The Bible Teaches That Few are Saved. Why Hell Must Be Eternal. Scientific Evidence for God. "The perverse are hard to be corrected, and the number of fools is infinite." (Ecclesiastes 1:15).

    17. 10-09-2008 09:59 PM #115
      looking for compressor map of a holset hx35/40 hybrid not sure where to find the map but i would like to see it plotted with stock bore and stroke motor revving to no more than 8000 rpms


      Modified by 50trim S at 7:01 PM 10-9-2008

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      10-10-2008 04:29 PM #116
      Quote, originally posted by 50trim S »
      looking for compressor map of a holset hx35/40 hybrid not sure where to find the map but i would like to see it plotted with stock bore and stroke motor revving to no more than 8000 rpms

      I did some research on the Holset HX35/40 hybrid and came up with the following information:

      Want to make your dodge into a fire breathing monster, try our Dodgezilla Hybrid the best of both worlds. The Dodgezilla Hybrid Turbo features the largest HX-40 compressor side avaliable allowing your turbo to flow more air. The Dodgezilla uses an upgraded HX-35 turbine housing, allowing you flow more air while avoiding the cost of a expensive downpipe and the weaker shaft of the HX40. You will notice the dodgezilla turbo spools up quicker and stays in its effective range much longer. The increased air flow will increase your low end throttle response, reduce your EGT and reduce the amount of smoke at low throttle. Dyno results are avaliable.
      http://www.citydiesel.net/dodg...32_34
      Is this the turbo you are referring to?


      Modified by mainstayinc at 1:30 PM 10-10-2008
      The Bible Teaches That Few are Saved. Why Hell Must Be Eternal. Scientific Evidence for God. "The perverse are hard to be corrected, and the number of fools is infinite." (Ecclesiastes 1:15).

    19. 10-10-2008 04:57 PM #117
      these maps need to be in the FAQ
      ░░░░░░ .. R13 5
      ▓▓▓▓▓▓▓ .. ╚╬╬╝
      ░░░░░░ .... 24

    20. Member IAmTheNacho's Avatar
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      10-10-2008 05:49 PM #118
      How about mapping a t3 60-1 .63A/R
      Quote Originally Posted by VDub Dan-O View Post
      I am in the process of going FrankenTurbo and pretty much got my dick slapped because I wasn't thinking BT.

    21. 10-10-2008 05:51 PM #119
      Quote, originally posted by IAmTheNacho »
      How about mapping a t3 60-1 .63A/R

      and one with a 2008cc engine

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      10-10-2008 05:59 PM #120
      Quote, originally posted by 50trim S »
      looking for compressor map of a holset hx35/40 hybrid not sure where to find the map but i would like to see it plotted with stock bore and stroke motor revving to no more than 8000 rpms

      Below I have listed all of the HX40 compressor maps with standard displacement overlaid (81mm bore x 86.4mm stroke). There are three of them. The smallest is an 8-blade design. There is also a 7 and 6 blade design. The hybrid HX35/40 turbo referring to the "largest HX-40 compressor side" mentioned above is either referring to the 7 blade (HX40-B8574M) or 6 blade (HX40-B8584M) design. See below.





      Modified by mainstayinc at 5:09 PM 12-15-2008
      The Bible Teaches That Few are Saved. Why Hell Must Be Eternal. Scientific Evidence for God. "The perverse are hard to be corrected, and the number of fools is infinite." (Ecclesiastes 1:15).

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      10-10-2008 06:02 PM #121
      Quote, originally posted by IAmTheNacho »
      How about mapping a t3 60-1 .63A/R

      I'll check into that on Monday and post with standard displacement and 2008 CCs (CincyTT). I think that I already have that one on file. I'm about to leave the office.[IMG]http://*****************.com/smile/emthup.gif[/IMG]


      Modified by mainstayinc at 3:06 PM 10-10-2008
      The Bible Teaches That Few are Saved. Why Hell Must Be Eternal. Scientific Evidence for God. "The perverse are hard to be corrected, and the number of fools is infinite." (Ecclesiastes 1:15).

    24. Member IAmTheNacho's Avatar
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      10-10-2008 06:27 PM #122
      Quote, originally posted by mainstayinc »
      I'll check into that on Monday and post with standard displacement and 2008 CCs (CincyTT). I think that I already have that one on file. I'm about to leave the office.[IMG]http://*****************.com/smile/emthup.gif[/IMG]

      Modified by mainstayinc at 3:06 PM 10-10-2008
      [IMG]http://*****************.com/smile/emthup.gif[/IMG]
      Quote Originally Posted by VDub Dan-O View Post
      I am in the process of going FrankenTurbo and pretty much got my dick slapped because I wasn't thinking BT.

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      10-13-2008 11:14 AM #123
      Quote, originally posted by IAmTheNacho »
      How about mapping a t3 60-1 .63A/R <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="https://www.vwvortex.com/vwbb/biggrin.gif" BORDER="0">

      Below is the map you requested with standard displacement (81mm bore x 86.4mm stroke) and rev. limiter raised to 11,000 RPMs. Please note that valvehead upgrades are needed for this RPM range. I have also listed 4 other Garrett turbos with similar flow rates for comparison.





      Below are the same compressor maps with 2008CC displacement (83mm bore x 92.8mm stroke)-Cincy TT. The T61 fits this combination well, considering its excellent surge line and high end capability. It's maximum efficiency line (not depicted on the map but right around 6000 RPMs) is 500 to 2000 RPMs lower compared to the T3 60-1 and it still produces more airflow than the T3 60-1. In the 600 to 700 HP range, the T61 is the better choice according to the maps.




      Last edited by mainstayinc; 11-11-2017 at 06:26 PM.
      The Bible Teaches That Few are Saved. Why Hell Must Be Eternal. Scientific Evidence for God. "The perverse are hard to be corrected, and the number of fools is infinite." (Ecclesiastes 1:15).

    26. Banned 20aeman's Avatar
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      10-13-2008 11:37 AM #124
      I can see why the honda guys love those things so much...

    27. 10-13-2008 01:44 PM #125
      None of those turbos are going to make power to 11k lololol. Also, even on a 2.1L, a 35r isn't going to spool up anywhere near 3100 rpm. I used to run that compressor wheel in a journal bearing setup and made full boost around 48-4900k (on a 2L). The guys running ball bearing full 35r's make boost around 4600 or so.
      You can't read the spoolup off the compressor map- plain and simple. You can tell if the turbo is going to surge or not if it WAS forced to spool then, but the spoolup is going to be constained by the turbine wheel, turbine housing, and amount of gas flow from the engine (displacement & ve)
      Hell, the difference between a .63 and a .82 T3 housing is a good chunk of spool- 3-400 rpm easily depending on the wheel- how is that reflected in the compressor map? Or that there are 4-5 different turbine wheels available for some of these turbos.
      Also, the statement about the eliminator housing not hurting spoolup is just plain wrong. The eliminator 2871r spool about 500rpm later then a standard full t25 gt2871r. You need to deliver the pressure TO the turbine wheel, not choke it all upstream.

      I don't want to hate, but compressor maps should be used for nothing more then picking a compressor that will shine in your intended powerband on your engine- and they are sketchy even at that as we are guessing the VE. There is just no physical way to tell when a turbo is going to spool up based on the compressor map with any kind of accuracy.


      Modified by rodney_dubs at 10:46 AM 10-13-2008

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