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    Thread: 3.2 VR6 OEM+ intake manifold project.

    1. 08-16-2013 09:15 PM #576
      Flanges are already available. What's your goal with this design?

      BTW, I'm looking for a cheap stock intake mani for scanning. It doesn't have to be pretty or functional, but it does need to be intact and not hacked up.

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    3. 08-16-2013 09:16 PM #577
      Quote Originally Posted by need_a_VR6 View Post
      Almost any design that will fit without cutting half the front apart isnt anywhere near optimal.
      Can you elaborate what you mean here? I don't follow..


      Quote Originally Posted by need_a_VR6 View Post
      The hpa runners with a larger plenum could be intersting.
      That and three more long runners. ;-)

    4. Geriatric Member need_a_VR6's Avatar
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      08-16-2013 11:44 PM #578
      Yes for pulse tuning effects the runners need to be very long. For optimum high rev performance you need a decent plenum and runner diameter. With stock packaging (hood, radiator/fans) the "right stuff" won't fit.
      -Paul
      1992 Corrado - ALL MOTOR Drag Project [email protected] and falling
      KPTuned - Official MegaSquirt: Sales - Repair - Installation - Tuning

    5. 08-18-2013 01:19 AM #579
      Quote Originally Posted by need_a_VR6 View Post
      Yes for pulse tuning effects the runners need to be very long. For optimum high rev performance you need a decent plenum and runner diameter. With stock packaging (hood, radiator/fans) the "right stuff" won't fit.
      The stock runners fit. Yes, I know.. restriction. Are you saying there is no room for larger diameter runners in the stock length and position? Of course, larger diameter affects pulse tuning as well.. What we need to start with is a 3D scan of the stock mani in a format someone can use to do a flow analysis. From there design differences can be explored. I've asked before about a 3D model and all I get back is "don't to it", "too expensive", etc.. which I'll have to translate as, "nobody has done this yet."

      A web search comes up with numerous shops doing full 3D scans into whatever file format you wish. I have no cad/flow tools, so what is the preferred file for flow analysis?

    6. Senior Member PowerDubs's Avatar
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      08-18-2013 12:20 PM #580
      Quote Originally Posted by zippy_109 View Post
      I've asked before about a 3D model and all I get back is "don't to it", "too expensive", etc.. which I'll have to translate as, "nobody has done this yet."


      Actually, the correct translation means 'time to open your own wallet if you want something done'.
      -Josh

      1-12-5-8-3-10-6-7-2-11-4-9

    7. 08-19-2013 09:00 PM #581
      Quote Originally Posted by PowerDubs View Post
      Actually, the correct translation means 'time to open your own wallet if you want something done'.
      Could be. But it felt more like, "I wasn't willing to open my wallet, so you better not be either!" ;-)

      No, I know you've bled over the NA VR more than anyone. But I'm now willing to bleed also. You just don't seem willing to believe it.

    8. Geriatric Member need_a_VR6's Avatar
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      08-19-2013 10:50 PM #582
      Stock runners do fit, but a huge restriction. You can 3d scan the outside, but the inside is problematic. From a design standpoint a clean slate is needed. The resonance points with the changeover can be approximated but not calculated exactly with the stock geometry.

      Bleed green and you will get somewhere.
      -Paul
      1992 Corrado - ALL MOTOR Drag Project [email protected] and falling
      KPTuned - Official MegaSquirt: Sales - Repair - Installation - Tuning

    9. 08-20-2013 12:06 AM #583
      Quote Originally Posted by need_a_VR6 View Post
      Stock runners do fit, but a huge restriction. You can 3d scan the outside, but the inside is problematic.
      It would have to be cut apart and scanned in pieces.

      Quote Originally Posted by need_a_VR6 View Post
      From a design standpoint a clean slate is needed. The resonance points with the changeover can be approximated but not calculated exactly with the stock geometry.
      Without a dynamic model of the unit, everything would be guess work.

      Quote Originally Posted by need_a_VR6 View Post
      Bleed green and you will get somewhere.
      No doubt.

    10. Geriatric Member need_a_VR6's Avatar
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      08-20-2013 09:03 AM #584
      A really good dynamic model is big time/$. The basic physical dimensionin is the easy part. To do dynamic flow as the cyls interact/pulse is going to take quite awhile to model.

      I know Josh cut that one manifold off to document the choke point past the plugs, but I dont remember an area measurement of it. Thats a good place to start.
      -Paul
      1992 Corrado - ALL MOTOR Drag Project [email protected] and falling
      KPTuned - Official MegaSquirt: Sales - Repair - Installation - Tuning

    11. 08-20-2013 02:43 PM #585
      If I were you, I would not spend my resources chasing time accurate CFD results (and this is coming from a guy who runs CFD for a living and writes CFD for fun). I would start with 1D hand calcs to try to get in the ball park on runner lengths, cross sectional area targets, etc. These will tell you if your design is even feasible.

      If/when you get into CFD use it to optimize plenum shapes, plenum to runner transitions, runner to flange transitions, and so on.

      Section cuts every few inches on a stock intake manifold would be a great way to quickly identify short comings.

    12. 08-20-2013 03:04 PM #586
      Quote Originally Posted by leebro61 View Post
      If I were you, I would not spend my resources chasing time accurate CFD results (and this is coming from a guy who runs CFD for a living and writes CFD for fun). I would start with 1D hand calcs to try to get in the ball park on runner lengths, cross sectional area targets, etc. These will tell you if your design is even feasible.
      True. Even as a starting point, IF there's room to increase the long runner cross section, this by itself will raise the resonant point. To bring it back down to the stock RPM peak, we'd have to increase length - so is there even room for that?? If the answer is 'yes' and 'yes', then a model may be worth doing.

      Quote Originally Posted by leebro61 View Post
      If/when you get into CFD use it to optimize plenum shapes, plenum to runner transitions, runner to flange transitions, and so on.
      But once I'm into CFD, I'm into CFD. ;-) So having the stock unit fully modeled could be invaluable.

      Quote Originally Posted by leebro61 View Post
      Section cuts every few inches on a stock intake manifold would be a great way to quickly identify short comings.
      Powerdubs did slice n' dice his, but it looks too hacked to be used to scan. I think the stock long runners were uniform size over the length of the flat/straight bits. Not sure once it curves down into the head.

      So you run CFD for a living? Have you ever modeled a Helmholtz resonator on an intake?

    13. 08-20-2013 05:14 PM #587
      Quote Originally Posted by zippy_109 View Post
      True. Even as a starting point, IF there's room to increase the long runner cross section, this by itself will raise the resonant point. To bring it back down to the stock RPM peak, we'd have to increase length - so is there even room for that?? If the answer is 'yes' and 'yes', then a model may be worth doing.



      But once I'm into CFD, I'm into CFD. ;-) So having the stock unit fully modeled could be invaluable.



      Powerdubs did slice n' dice his, but it looks too hacked to be used to scan. I think the stock long runners were uniform size over the length of the flat/straight bits. Not sure once it curves down into the head.

      So you run CFD for a living? Have you ever modeled a Helmholtz resonator on an intake?
      I do aerodynamic design work for a living, and running CFD is a huge part of that. The majority of the CFD we run is time average (or "steady state"). We will eventually migrate to time accurate solutions, but for right now the computational cost is still much too high (among other concerns). I have not done any resonance modelling myself, but I would guess it involves an unsteady CFD starting solution and then some sort of linearized approach to solving multidimensional wave equations and lots of assumptions/approximations in between.

      What I'm hoping to convey is, you'll get the most bang for your buck from a quick hand calc. You may find some additional performance from a reduced order, steady state CFD to optimize certain regions of the manifold. I don't think you will get any benefit from chasing resonance modelling or time accurate boundary conditions (valves opening and closing). That kind of work is better suited for academia where people can spend years of their life trying to correlate a single CFD model to a lab test result.

      The problem with a 3d scan of the stock manifold is that the model won't be parametric, so it won't be much help to you when you go to create an updated design. You would also likely have to simplify the geometry considerably to go from a 3d scan to a CFD grid.

    14. Geriatric Member need_a_VR6's Avatar
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      08-20-2013 05:32 PM #588
      Changing the diameter doesn't change the resonance point (rpm). It will change the bulk velocity and profile, but that's it.
      -Paul
      1992 Corrado - ALL MOTOR Drag Project [email protected] and falling
      KPTuned - Official MegaSquirt: Sales - Repair - Installation - Tuning

    15. 08-20-2013 05:44 PM #589
      Quote Originally Posted by need_a_VR6 View Post
      Changing the diameter doesn't change the resonance point (rpm). It will change the bulk velocity and profile, but that's it.
      Okay, just went back to the book to confirm. That being the case, we may get most of what we're after by replicating the stock dimensions with larger ID long runners. So first order of biz is to have the valve portion of the mani fab'd in Aluminum. Got a WTB for a mani out. Nothing yet..

    16. Geriatric Member need_a_VR6's Avatar
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      08-21-2013 10:06 AM #590
      From a practical standpoint I would:

      Make a "high rpm" long runner manifold and make sure it meets those needs. Modify/redesign as needed.
      Then try and add the resonance chamber using the stock design as a starting point.

      Unless you get the high rpm part working, why do anything at all...
      -Paul
      1992 Corrado - ALL MOTOR Drag Project [email protected] and falling
      KPTuned - Official MegaSquirt: Sales - Repair - Installation - Tuning

    17. 08-21-2013 02:51 PM #591
      Quote Originally Posted by need_a_VR6 View Post
      From a practical standpoint I would:

      Make a "high rpm" long runner manifold and make sure it meets those needs. Modify/redesign as needed.
      Then try and add the resonance chamber using the stock design as a starting point.

      Unless you get the high rpm part working, why do anything at all...
      The long runners lower the peak RPM. The resonant chamber it attached to shorter runners to give a short pulse return path to move the torque peak to the high RPM range. But I'm willing to be wrong.

    18. Geriatric Member need_a_VR6's Avatar
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      08-22-2013 12:27 AM #592
      No you are right.

      http://www.volkspage.net/technik/ssp/ssp/SSP_212.pdf

      Its all in there.

      Making the torque pipes flow and adding the resonance chamber later seems tough. I would still figure out the right high flow design from a length and plenum perspective then go back and try and make a chambered manifold.
      -Paul
      1992 Corrado - ALL MOTOR Drag Project [email protected] and falling
      KPTuned - Official MegaSquirt: Sales - Repair - Installation - Tuning

    19. 12-04-2013 04:31 AM #593
      I will throw this data in

      Few variables to consider....



      .:R32T, Stock Internals
      PT6265, SRI, 268/272, UM Tune @ 20PSI

    20. 12-04-2013 10:15 AM #594
      Interesting, what is the source of the data... guessing academia? Definitely need more details before drawing conclusions, although I will say the general trend of the runner length and runner diameter plot agree with my expectations. Thanks for sharing

    21. 04-24-2017 10:17 AM #595
      You might revisit this now that 3d printers are all over the place. A "hacker space" would love to work on something like this and ford uses 3d printers for its prototype intakes because they're cheap and fast, so the plastics must be strong enough.
      I came to the party late so i cant see the pictures since they're missing.

      Also what is the likely hood that the Performance Port Valve fails to open or close in the current manifold? Being its vacuum based and doesn't seem to have a electrical value to monitor (that i can tell), any obstruction or slight leak could keep it closed or open.
      The real world dyno results show the effects of each and its a bit scary.

    22. n00b
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      11-29-2019 03:02 AM #596
      Some news since this time?

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