Thanks for this. I had the same thoughts about some points so it's nice to see others that think the same.
My personal experience is slightly different from what you are describing for the portion of waiting at a red light.
It appears to me that while sitting still in D, S or manual mode, the clutches are still partly engaged because the creep is immediate (unless pointing uphill).
Also, if you look in the MFD, the immediate fuel consumption (in my 2014 TDI) in neutral is 0.7 litres / hour while in D, S or manual, it's 0.9 (that's pretty wasteful if you ask me.. 25% more fuel for nothing).
Clearly, something is working harder unless you put the DSG in neutral.
I read somewhere (can't remember where) that in Europe, the DSG completely disengages (IE puts itself in neutral) after a short delay while standstill and reengages as soon as you release the brake pedal (which makes total sense to me... similar to a stop-start system on some cars). I guess North American driving habits (or the fear from VW corporate of some stupid lawsuit) made them change the coding in the DSG?
What's your opinion on that?
Anyone heard something about the European DSG? Anyway to reprogram ours to behave like that?
I arrived here because soon after we acquired a new Skoda Roomster with the 1.2TSI engine and the 7 speed DQ200 DSG for my wife, it became obvious that whilst you can attempt to drive the DSG like a slush box, and it will work, more or less, it clearly isn't one and there are certain habits that people who drive slush-autos have that are really not good for the DSG at all. So I have been trying to figure out the best way to use (and look after) the DSG box.
The one thing the manual does tell us, or at least ours does, is NOT to hold the car on the accelerator on a hill. Now I guess a lot of auto drivers will use the creep, and a bit of gas if necessary, for this and may well carry this habit to the DSG. Especially once they find that it overcomes the launch lag!
However the reason it's bad is obvious - the clutch is slipping all the time that this is happening, unlike the slush box which would just be churning fluid.
What the manual doesn't tell you explicitly is that holding on the brake disengages the clutch. This also explains the lag, because when you release the brake pedal the clutch comes to the bite point. Some power will then allow the clutch to engage fully as the car starts to move. This also means that, as already noted above, anticipating the brake release slightly will mean that when the time to launch comes the clutch is ready and off you go.
The other thing that the manual doesn't tell you in so many words is that only the footbrake has this clutch-releasing function. If you leave the car in gear, but hold it on the handbrake, the clutch is again at the bite point and slipping. Hence the value of hill hold control - when the foot is on the brake, the clutch is disengaged, release the brake pedal and the brakes stay on for up to two seconds but will gradually release as the accelerator is pressed.
This applies whether using auto or sequential - I'm pretty sure this is how it works on our car, with it's manual parking brake, but can't be sure if it also applies to cars with an automatic parking brake.
Sorry if this is blindingly obvious already - it's certainly consistent with what others have said above, but was not explained clearly in the manual.
Incidentally - the reason that the DQ200 has so little oil is that it is only in the gearbox proper - the clutches are (a) single plate, and (b) completely dry and not in any sort of oil bath. So they do need to be looked after, as you would a 'proper' clutch!
Last edited by Sea Cow; 08-17-2014 at 05:59 PM.
Great thread, lot of help sorting out my DSG...a couple of questions:
1. If I'm in 'D', and switch over to M, is the gear 'accurate'? Meaning, one time I went to M and it was in 4th, at 2200RPM, 32mph, up a grade...this just seems like a really tall gear to be in for that circumstance - or perhaps I'm just not accustomed the GTI's torque curve?
2. When entering/exiting a corner, when have you found to be the best time to downshift to accelerate out? I think I read somewhere else that the DSG will rev match for you...
3. How many of you use 1 from a complete stop? It seems that even under moderate to light acceleration, I'm at 4K very fast and am quickly upshifting. Do you just start from 2 unless on an uphill grade?
'11 GTI DSG, Black Pearl
2. Do your downshifting before the curve. It's a front wheel drive car and the weight shift mid-corner from the change in acceleration during a shift could upset the handling.
3. The DSG won't let you start in anything above 1st gear. My thought is that this is done to limit clutch slipping and excessive heat generation, but I don't have any documentation to back that up.
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Thank you for this thread! I bought my GLi just 2 weeks ago now, and I've been teaching myself the little nuances between driving clutched manuals and cpu controlled ones. It's been fun, but I still had some of the old habits which I didn't realize were hurting me until this thread.
Time to go for a drive....for science
I've followed the advice here and have been trying for months to get to a smooth stop on a '12 TDI Jetta. I've done it maybe once. Does the above still apply to the diesels? I've gotten to the point where I just let the dsg automatically downshift from 2nd to 1st
Just wanted to say a couple of things, the first of which was thank you OP for this thread. I just switched over to a GLI with DSG after owning nothing but regular manual transmission cars for all of my 23 years of driving experience. Just reading this thread has already helped me figure this thing out.
Also wanted to say I am definately learning the DSG is not like a traditional manual or a traditional automatic, and is its own beast.
I really do wish the DSG would get the RPMs out of the basement and drive normally. The engine is always under 2,000 rpms, which I never really was when driving regular manual transmission cars. Then of course Sport is useless for DD and should just be called "track" or "crazy, can't use ever, high rpm lunatic" mode. Why VW could't throw in a middle ground or just simply set the regular D setting to be decent is beyond me.
I'm finding that having to give it gas to downshift instead of lifting is oddly hard coming from previous practices. I had my first "DSG WTF" moment yesterday after only having the car since last Thursday. Switched to manual mode while getting on the highway to try things out a little. Pulled the paddle for a change down one gear, which went fine, then went into the on-ramp, where I then when to accelerate and pulled the paddle again for another downshift and........nothing. Then all of a sudden, a very harsh/poor downshift to what I think was 2nd, the engine raced and the situation scared the crap out of me. I forgot I had slid the shifter into manual mode, so I waiting for the transmission to shift up, but of course it didn't. I ended up accidentally letting the rpms get to like 6,200 before I let off the gas to end things and it finally shift up. I felt like I had not driven a car before......
This is going to take more getting used to than I had expected. Not sure what I think about the DSG so far. Coming from only driving regluar manuals, I don't feel like I can get the gear I want, when I want it, which was what I was expecting from the DSG. I wouldn't even mind it taking a little time to shift, but the changes are far less smooth than I was with a regular manual, which is disappointing.
I came from nothing but standard cars and after 2 years... I still dont get this tranny. Its just poorly programmed. I drive around in manual mode if Im doing anything but puttering about because it is always... ALWAYS in the wrong gear. Sport is a joke. Useless. drive demands that you drive to save fuel and then will randomly rev to 4000rpm at a quarter throttle. The most annoying thing to me is the pause while taking off and the hesitation before coming to a stop. Id love to get a dsg tune but the thought of killing the warrantee on the most expensive thing on the car kills me inside.
That is correct, it is silky smooth when you press the accelerator then request a downshift. At least hold the throttle steady with a lil load on it, and it's been silk for me. I've come a LONG way since buying mine back in August (well the last 3 days of it anyway lol). I've got just under 17k in that time so I drive a lot a lot, and it's very smooth for me if you drive it right.
I always owned traditional manual cars up until this one I decided to try out, and it's definitely a learning experience, but just a few tweaks early on makes a huge difference, and I can say that this gearbox is awesome!
Getting a DSG tune..........utter greatness, and the cure for the overly eager shifts in D mode you mentioned. S mode becomes usable too and a lot of fun when you wanna go have a good time without shifting yourself. Manual mode is excellent of course as well.
^That's no biggie, it's magically delicious and part of a balanced breakfast BUT the gearbox is still very good once you're used to it. I switch up between driving in D or M depending on how I feel all the time. Sometimes I'll go weeks of using M mode exclusively, and sometimes I'll just put it in D and ride with an occasional override. S gets used sometimes on the Interstate when there is the traffic to warrant it (putting the car into cruise control while in S mode makes it like D basically...until you touch the throttle at all to accelerate then BAM! let's go, then as long as you didn't touch the brakes.....goes right back to cruising for fuel economy, sweeeeeeeet).
Other times, I'm going out to have a fun drive in S mode (a billion times better than the stock S mode since you can actually relax because it'll upshift to at least 4th at 50mph instead of 50mph in 2nd lol).
Give it time, it's a great system, you'll like it once you learn how to drive it, just like when you first learned to drive with a clutch.
Also, the hesitation at take off is Hill Control, which is something you can turn off....
Even of you don't, you can also 'pre stage' the car to take off at a light by your throttle position. Think of how you learned the bite point on a manual clutch. Do the same thing with the throttle, you'll feel that we you start to let off the throttle slowly, you'll feel a point where it's JUST LIKE when you do the same thing with a clutch and the engine engages but you're not moving just yet. It's a very very easily felt point if you look for it, release any further, the car moves 'now'. It only hesitates if you're fully on the brake the whole time.
Defeating Hill control takes away another thing, but that's just the simple totally easy free thing you learn first. You don't wait for the light to turn before you press the clutch at all, you get ready just before it turns...same thing, other pedal lol.