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    Thread: #2 high pressure line again? 1.9NA

    1. Member mokoosh's Avatar
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      10-16-2016 12:25 PM #1
      So... I have blown a high pressure fuel line three times since I put in this 1.9L NA running the 1.6L pump. Once three years ago: newer steel one #2 cylinder. Once two months ago: The old stock used one that I put in to replace the first one that blew on #2 cylinder. The one I bought from MK1autohaus two months ago, just blew. The last two times it was just a pin hole. This time the line is completely severed.

      Should I be looking for a higher quality part or could this be an underlying problem developing with my pump? too much pressure in #2?

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    3. Member mokoosh's Avatar
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      10-16-2016 02:11 PM #2
      Clogged injector causing excess pressure? Ordering another new line from a different vendor. Partsplace or AutohausAZ.

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      10-23-2016 04:05 AM #3
      #2 fuel line is the easiest/most often to break. The underlying reasons are usually:
      1) you rotated the pump and did not loosen and tighten-back-up-again EACH fuel line at both ends.

      2) all four of your fuel line securing bolts are either not in place or not sufficiently tightened.

      3) you are running the fuel lines without the neat fuel line anti-vibration binding devices that they come with at the factory. No...I don't have a picture of them. Go find it yourself. The lines tend to vibrate under each firing pulse and that eventually cracks the line.....with #2 being the most vulnerable.

      At any rate, the problem is more of a "you" thing than an "it" thing.
      Working to make American great again. Americanism NOT globalism.

    5. Member mokoosh's Avatar
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      10-25-2016 02:36 PM #4
      Thanks for the 'no nonsense' reply Prairie,

      Good news really. I could blame myself, but I prefer to blame the part:

      1) I did not rotate the pump at all when I installed the new line 2 months ago. I did not have to bend the line at all for fitment; it was perfect.

      2) my lower bolt and nut rattled out over the summer. I replaced them with non-standard hardware, but it's tight and this was before the new line was installed 2 months ago. Changed my kick-down a little when I put in the bolt.

      3) I am using the two small AVB devices that bind two lines each. I am not using the one that binds all four because the replacement lines are of a slightly larger outside diameter than the originals and I could not get them all to fit. I do ensure that there is no metal on metal contact between the lines. maybe there is room for improvement on this one, I will give it some thought.

      I will be installing the AutohausAZ line ($15) today. I will keep the Partsplace line ($26) as a spare.

    6. Member mokoosh's Avatar
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      02-19-2017 02:22 PM #5
      Since the last post:

      I did a yearly maintenance on the truck including checking (but not adjusting) the injection pump timing at 276,855 on the dial. I checked and tightened all four IP securing bolts, with the high pressure lines removed, as I was replacing glow plugs at the time. Then I reinstalled all four high pressure lines from pump to injectors. I got the other anti-vibration device (the one that binds all four) back on there along with the two smaller ones that bind two lines each. I thought I was looking good.

      I should have checked the mileage at the last #2 line failure/replacement, but I estimate that it was around 276,500. Current mileage: 277,477. The #2 high pressure line from AutohausAZ ($15) blew a pin hole in the inside of the tight bend. It happened on the driveway as I downshifted to first, I could smell it and noticed a slightly rough idle.

      Nothing like a coat of diesel to clean up the engine compartment:



      and it's snowing/raining/snowing...again.

      I will install the Part's Place #2 high pressure line ($26) and see how far I get. And I will order another spare.

      Assuming that this is a vibration issue...maybe I can reinforce the bend in the #2 line or otherwise further reduce vibration either for this line or for the entire engine. (insert contemplative head scratch emoticon here) Maybe tool-dip or some kind of tape-wrap on the bend in the line? I have one of those front bumper anti-vibration devices from the VW dealership, but it's meant for a stock bumper. You know, the one that's a 5lb piece of iron on a bracket. I won't be installing that.

      If this a known problem for #2 line why doesn't someone come up with a flexible line? That seems like it would solve my problem. maybe I can have one made locally. Anyone running non-stock or flexible high pressure lines on an otherwise stock setup?
      Last edited by mokoosh; 02-19-2017 at 02:24 PM.
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    7. Member mokoosh's Avatar
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      02-22-2017 04:15 PM #6
      I sanded the bend area a bit in hopes of reducing rigidity and installed the Partsplace line. It wasn't a perfect fit, so I stretched it by hand. Back on the road.

      For next time: maybe I could anneal the bend by heating it with a propane torch and slowly cool it in some wood ashes.

    8. Member mokoosh's Avatar
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      10-29-2018 07:52 PM #7
      Always the #2 line. Always cracked in the same place:

      https://youtu.be/0yV1qvMVKF0

      This almost doesn't bother me anymore; Just another quirk of this truck. Odometer is currently 283,010. That's 5533 Odometer miles since the last occurrence of this phenomenon. my odometer under-reports by 12%, so actual miles: 6197. Almost worth it failing for that good feeling of knowing that you have the parts, tools and know-how to fix your daily driver when it breaks. 20 minutes in the parking lot after work and back in business.



      I didn't do anything special to this one. Just bent it slightly to fit. This does have me wondering about making my own custom lines again. Maybe I can use brake-line to make myself some custom lines with curly Qs for a steam-punk look? I'll get over it. I have some used-old-stock spares now. I'll have to add one to my on-board-spare-parts bag.
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    9. Member fastinradford's Avatar
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      11-04-2018 01:42 PM #8
      make sure the end of the pump is secured via the bracket under the lines, not just on the 3 mount bolts.

      for my rover one I had to build a custom one, it would make random seals leak, put on bracket, and its much happier
      smiles per gallon in a tdi rabbit are unreal

    10. Member mokoosh's Avatar
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      01-13-2019 12:03 AM #9
      #2 again.

      https://youtu.be/Hw7avcRhMQY

      Cracked almost all the way through on the inside of the curve, just like always...

      If I keep doing the same repair, how can I expect different results? Therfore:

      https://youtu.be/79JJrZloI_M

      I decided that it was time for me to start making my own lines: I don't see how I could do worse.





      In the end I bound the other three and left the franken-line independent for the test drive.



      Put 20 miles on it. Seemed fine. No leaks.

      I also cleaned up an old stock #2 line for a spare. If this setup lasts a couple of weeks, I may make set and try to make-em-pretty. Curious about the importance of uniformity of length between the lines. Also the thick wall/ small ID vs my new high volume line.
      Last edited by mokoosh; 01-13-2019 at 12:17 AM.
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    11. 01-13-2019 08:05 AM #10
      I'm certainly not VW diesel expert but my guess is that it will not last long. Time will tell what happens. I just cannot imagine the thinner wall tubing is as strong or stronger than the thicker stock one. Again, we shall see.

      I would swap injectors with a different cylinder. Why? Because it's simple to do and it's not right that the injector line keeps breaking the way it does. Maybe it's the vibrations, but I'm thinking it's more of a harsh hydraulic pressure. With all the German diesels I have worked on, I have never run across this in the past.

    12. Member mokoosh's Avatar
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      01-13-2019 10:16 AM #11
      Quote Originally Posted by Butcher View Post
      I'm certainly not VW diesel expert but my guess is that it will not last long. Time will tell what happens. I just cannot imagine the thinner wall tubing is as strong or stronger than the thicker stock one. Again, we shall see.

      I would swap injectors with a different cylinder. Why? Because it's simple to do and it's not right that the injector line keeps breaking the way it does. Maybe it's the vibrations, but I'm thinking it's more of a harsh hydraulic pressure. With all the German diesels I have worked on, I have never run across this in the past.
      That's a solid practical suggestion to swap injectors around. I may try that at some point.

      I wonder if a full set of old-stock lines would solve my problem. After playing with them yesterday, I think the old lines are more flexible, less rigid, less stainless. I flexed one back and forth to try to break it, and it wouldn't break.
      Less carbon in the steel?
      Last edited by mokoosh; 01-13-2019 at 10:22 AM.
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    13. 01-14-2019 10:10 AM #12
      Again, It does not make any sense to me. If you were my client and the lines were only lasting a short time, at some point I would stop blaming the lines. That is why I thought of swapping the injectors. If they still break, then I would think about the pump. Sadly, it just does not make any sense to me. Especially when there are so many others out there without problems.

      Maybe the opening pressure is way too high for that injector. The injector pump only delivers fuel to the injector. The pressure in the line is built up by the opening pressure in the injector. If the injector only opened at 20 psi, then there would only be 20 psi in the line. I do not recall the opening pressure of the old school injectors but I do remember they told us never to stick your finger under the injector when pressure testing. It will inject fuel under the skin. I think is was about 350 bar.

      If the injector opening pressure is too high, then the weakest link may be the line.

      Just thinking out loud. Most people do not have an injector tester in their tool box but I did at one time. If I had that issue and the injectors were at specs, I would probably try removing some of the shims to have the opening pressure drop a bit. I do not think if you dropped it 10% it would change things much. You could always talk to a diesel shop and see if they could do that for you. If you were a real butcher, you could disassemble the injector and remove the shim yourself. http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/...aning-diy.html

      The pressure does not regulate fuel flow. That's done by the pump. It should not change the fuel delivery at all. Again, we are not making a huge pressure difference. Maybe just low enough for the line not to break.

      I'm just thinking out loud, not saying it would work, but certainly all you would do is waste some time. Should be cheap to do.
      Last edited by Butcher; 01-14-2019 at 10:18 AM.

    14. Member mokoosh's Avatar
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      01-14-2019 03:15 PM #13
      Sadly, time is in short supply as I am scattered between too many projects. Not only can I not throw anything away, I try to DIY everything. I've been building a timber frame house for a decade, I rebuilt my Onan CMM 7000 last week, and built a composter because the old one rotted out.

      Thanks for the input though. Your points are all valid and I appreciate the help.
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    15. 01-14-2019 08:41 PM #14
      I look forward to the eventual answer. It may help me in the future too.

    16. 01-20-2019 03:59 PM #15
      I appreciate this post as well. My 1.6 has been breaking #1 injector lines albeit at a slower rate. Been about 10k miles and three years since the last time. I removed the rubber lined clamps that tie the lines together because the new lines didn't fit in the clamps very easily. Right now I'm looking for a set of the clamps.

      Sent from my E6810 using Tapatalk

    17. Member mokoosh's Avatar
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      02-15-2019 09:47 PM #16


      Success, sort of: different results achieved. The custom line started leaking at the pump connection after about 100 miles.



      I am very seriously considering doing an injector swap to see if it makes a difference, however price of heat shields and risk of doing damage to the head, has me backing off for now, I've decided that I need a pop tester to check pattern and pressure if I'm taking them out. Maybe best to wait. I'm planning on taking this engine out in another 25K miles for various tasks anyway. One of those tasks is to replace the motor mounts (contributing source of vibration?), they're 12 years and 80k miles old.

      So, for now, I spent a little more time cleaning up, shaping and sanding a used line and added a fourth binder (see above photo). That was one thing that I did to the line that I got 6k miles out of recently: sanded the inside of the bend where it cracks. Back on the road, kicking the can on down.
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    18. 02-16-2019 02:59 AM #17
      Again.....a case for missing logic (have I ever said THAT before....hmmmm):
      AAZ engine has a longer stroke. Even though you are running a 1.6 fuel pump....and probably 1.6 single-stage injectors....you STILL have to accommodate for the taller block.

      Soooooo…..if I were YOU....I would find at least a #2 true AAZ injector line to run. Or, find an entire set.

      Did it not seem odd that you had to "bend" the #2 when you went to install it?

      Where will you find a set of AAZ lines....I don't know. Maybe parts place on this one?
      Write to burn_your_money on this forum. Put forth a concise explanation of your problem....make it quick and easy for him to understand. He is a stellar guy and may well know where to score some longer aaz fuel lines.

      I have never owned an aaz as they just were NOT in my part of the world. But, they are, overall, 1/2 inch taller as I recall. And, my guess, you stretched that fuel line open approx. 3/8 to 1/2 inch to fit....right?

      logic logic logic logic logic

      Edit: and two things about home-made fuel lines:
      1) you can NOT duplicate the original flair and 2) working around this thin-wall line is about as dangerous as it gets. You could lose your eye sight. You could inject into tissues anywhere else.

      The #2 fuel line is the most sensitive to vibration, etc. THAT is why they break more often. It is a matter of placement I guess. In 1.7 million miles of driving, I have only had two #2 lines fail. But, I ALWAYS carry a full set in the trunk at all times none-the-less.
      Last edited by Muldermutt; 02-16-2019 at 03:04 AM.

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      02-16-2019 09:33 AM #18
      In my Case, every time that I had the Passenger side engine mount go, if I didn't attend to it quickly, the number 2 line on my 1.6 would spring a leak at the
      radius of the second bend from the line nearest the Vacuum Pump.

      I had over 300K on it and went through about 3 of those lines. So if your mounts aren't new then you can have excessive vibration causing the issue.

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      02-20-2019 08:59 PM #19
      AAZ lines won’t be a perfect fit, but they’ll be better. I’m also running this engine with a 1.6 based IP.

      One of my lines snapped at the union, at the IP. After a bit of searching, I found a set of AAZ lines. The AAZ injectors are taller, meaning instead of being drastically bent upwards, the lines will need to be slightly tweaked downwards. The latter was less stressful, and the shape of the AAZ lines cleared the aneroid, with ease. The aneroid was always contacting the line, after setting timing, with the NA 1.6 lines.

      Time will tell if this is the true fix.... I barely drive my pick up. Still on the hunt for the proper injectors...

      -Todd

    21. Member mokoosh's Avatar
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      02-20-2019 10:55 PM #20
      Called up and chatted about these not long ago. He says that "to spec" means passing emissions in Europe. He basically talked me out of them; says that they won't improve my performance and thinks 1.6L injectors are just fine.

      http://www.qualitygermanautoparts.co...l%20Components

      top
      Article # Bar 150

      $ 229.00
      Bar 150
      VW 1900 Turbo Diesel AAZ Engine Set of injectors
      This is a used set of 4 injectors VW 1900 Turbo Diesel AAZ Engine. These are the taller injectors with the dual springs. You could use 1600 injecotrs in an AAZ engine but if you want the engine to perform to spec this is the set of injectors you need. We checked the injectors for spray pattern and pop tested them for 150 Bar pressure. Injectors come with 30 day exchange warranty. We also have used injector lines and other components available please inquire. 760-241-9504

      file photo

      I had no issues for the first 50k with this setup: 1.6L everything on a new 1.9L longblock. two lines ago I got 6k, that was an acceptable rate of failure for the next 25k, then new motor mounts as well as possible reinforcement or other modification of the pump mounting brackets, injectors out and tested. Just acquired a set of 4 new injector nozzles for rebuild purposes as part of a larger deal including another running (120k) 1.9L na with correct pump and original lines, never broken, also running a set of new (30k or less) 1.6L injectors.

      Anyway, I currently think that I have just slightly excessive vibration as my main issue and the solution will be taking the motor out for a serious 100k check-up and improve on the whole setup. Until then I might just change the oil and filters once a year and carry a spare old stock 1.6L line.
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      02-21-2019 02:18 PM #21
      Hello,

      So I did some research to further clarify my answer to the question you asked me the other day about injector line length and inner diameter. Ultimately it is all to do with timing. While the engine may still run and run well, it is engineered with very tight tolerances and this means the injector lines were as well. For the short time, a different length and diameter line will certainly function but is not ideal. As he states, You'll be off by as much as 3° on that one cylinder thereby having a little more power and working it harder.

      This gentleman explained it much much better than I can.

      All that said though...I would do as you're doing to some degree. Making my own line is great but I'd try to keep to the dimensions of the original.

      Quote Originally Posted by
      Rob Lion, mechanical engineer with wide-ranging interests

      In a combustion cycle, the timing of the fuel injection pulse is critically important. When the valve in the injector pump opens, the high-pressure pulse propagates through the tube at the speed of sound of fuel, which is (very rough order of magnitude) about 1000 m/s.

      Picking some more rough numbers to calculate an example, let’s say your longest injector tube is 0.50 meters long, and your shortest injector tube is 0.25 meters long. The fuel pulse will thus propagate through these tubes in 500 µs and 250 µs, respectively. A diesel engine revved up to 2000 RPM will be rotating at 12,000 degrees per second. In the time it takes the fuel to propagate through our two different-length tubes, the crankshaft will rotate 6° for the longer tube, and only 3° for the shorter tube, so in order for the fuel pulse to arrive at the same point in each cylinder’s cycle, the injector valve would need to be opened at a slightly different amount of time in advance. As you may know from discussions of valve timing or ignition timing in combustion engines, even a variation of 1° in timing can make a significant difference in the performance characteristics of an engine — which we clearly want to have consistent across all of the cylinders.

      Theoretically, this propagation delay could be accounted for in the design of the cam mechanism that drives the injector valve opening. However, this component is complicated and expensive, and would have to be unique for each engine layout (set of tube lengths) that might otherwise share an identical injector valve mechanism. It’s far easier and cheaper to use an injector valve that has the valve opening triggers equally spaced, and then spend a few cents on a bit of extra tube length to equalize the fuel timing.

      Modern engines, of course, have electronically-driven fuel-injector valves, where this timing compensation can be easily set and adjusted in the engine computer’s firmware.

      --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

      Other answers to this question mention equalizing the fuel pressure between cylinders. While this might play a small role, I believe that the volume of fuel flowing through those pipes is not nearly enough for the pressure to vary a significant amount. These pipes are under periodic pulsed-flow conditions, not continuous-flow conditions, so some of the underlying assumptions of the rules of thumb for head-loss in pipes are likely to be invalid.
      https://www.quora.com/Why-does-the-h...ar-to-the-pump

    23. Member mokoosh's Avatar
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      02-21-2019 04:24 PM #22
      Quote Originally Posted by frankinstyn View Post
      Hello,

      So I did some research to further clarify my answer to the question you asked me the other day about injector line length and inner diameter. Ultimately it is all to do with timing. While the engine may still run and run well, it is engineered with very tight tolerances and this means the injector lines were as well. For the short time, a different length and diameter line will certainly function but is not ideal. As he states, You'll be off by as much as 3° on that one cylinder thereby having a little more power and working it harder.

      This gentleman explained it much much better than I can.

      All that said though...I would do as you're doing to some degree. Making my own line is great but I'd try to keep to the dimensions of the original.



      https://www.quora.com/Why-does-the-h...ar-to-the-pump
      So, if I understand, it's more about the relativity of time and distance than the logic (mut) of pressure being equal in a hydraulic system: good enough for brakes but not good enough for engine timing.
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      02-21-2019 04:26 PM #23
      Quote Originally Posted by mokoosh View Post
      So, if I understand, it's more about the relativity of time and distance than the logic (mut) of pressure being equal in a hydraulic system: good enough for brakes but not good enough for engine timing.
      That about sums it up. Brakes don't matter as much I guess. Who cares about the 1/100th of a second between the left front and right front brake applying but that 1/100th of a second difference in the timing at 3000rpm really matters.

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      02-21-2019 06:19 PM #24
      Quote Originally Posted by mokoosh View Post
      Called up and chatted about these not long ago. He says that "to spec" means passing emissions in Europe. He basically talked me out of them; says that they won't improve my performance and thinks 1.6L injectors are just fine.

      My point wasn’t performance based; it was “less stress on the lines” based.

      I forgot to mention that I needed to find long delivery valves, too. I’m currently running Cummins 4BT DVs, but the orfice is too big, and I can’t get the idle down, as low as I’d like. I recently found a long set of 1.6 DVs, but haven’t taken the time to install them.

      If I can find a decent set of AAZ injectors, my lines would be stress free.

      -Todd

    26. Member mokoosh's Avatar
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      82 Rabbit Pickup 1.9D, 06 MK4 Golf TDI, 2 81 Diesel Sandstone Caddys, 82 Jetta 1.6L NA, 80 1.9D 5DR
      03-08-2019 11:58 AM #25
      I got the truck into the 'shop' for yearly maintenance. Revved her up a few times and noticed a rattle at a mid-range RPM, that I hadn't heard before. Sounded like a 10mm wrench had fallen behind the injection pump. Got in there with a magnet and a flashlight, couldn't find anything. As I was hand feeling around back there, I came across a hole with my pinky.

      Sure enough, it was a bolt hole. One of the two bolts from the lower rear pump support bracket to the block was missing. The bracket seemed snug, but if you really ganked it, it had enough play to move maybe a mm or two. Assuming this was a major source of pump vibration and had finally gotten to a point of being audible. Found a nice replacement in my extra bolts can along with lock washer. 5 minute job.

      So, how long has it been missing? I thought I checked this at least once since I have had this #2 fuel line issue, but upon consideration; my recent system of checking this bracket has only consisted of visually inspecting the main rear pump to bracket bolt (I've lost that one before: engine raced rather than idled), and lightly hand tugging the bracket to check for snugness. You can't really see the bolt easily from the top, and you can't see the hole (without a bolt in it) at all.

      So either:

      All my problems are solved and I have just been an idiot for not delving deeper into my lower bracket, sooner.

      Or:

      The missing bolt was a symptom of the same vibration that breaks the line.

      Here's to hoping that I'm an idiot. <img src="https://www.vwvortex.com/Anthony/Smilies/embeer.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Beer" class="inlineimg" />

      Oh well, I am just a hobbyist and always learning. Lucky for me that old VWs don't mind running a few thousand miles with a few missing bolts. <img src="https://www.vwvortex.com/Anthony/Smilies/biggrin_upper.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Big Grin Animated" class="inlineimg" />
      Probably not the only one. If I make it 100K on this setup without having to remove the engine, it will be a minor miracle. On the other hand, the truck is awesome to drive and makes me happy. The more I wrench, the more I love it. <img src="https://www.vwvortex.com/Anthony/Smilies/peace.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Peace" class="inlineimg" />
      Last edited by mokoosh; 03-08-2019 at 02:54 PM.
      Quote Originally Posted by rabbitnothopper View Post
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