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    Thread: A Peek at the TDI Dumping Grounds in Normal, Illinois

    1. Member TigerinColorado's Avatar
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      03-22-2017 05:36 PM #76
      Quote Originally Posted by spoonie View Post
      Weird, I see a bunch of cars, not 'victims'.



      I'm amazed they're not allowed to simply take them out of the USA and sell them somewhere less discerning.

      In other countries they might just disappear in the middle of the night (into parts, shipping containers, etc.). This is a highly publicized case, so maybe not. There were some shenanigans with Cash 4 Cluckers though!

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    3. Member BUJonathan's Avatar
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      03-22-2017 05:46 PM #77
      Quote Originally Posted by Triumph View Post
      You're also missing my point. You stated something as fact, when in fact, it is not. See?
      What I stated is a fact. One emits more NOx than the other (even in EPA test mode). And within the framework of what the EPA is allowed to regulate (environmental air quality), NOx is widely accepted as a key contributor to poor air quality and human health. As one example, NOx reduction has been a key contributor to reducing smog in our cities.

      As a tree hugger, I would love it if the EPA also had authority to regulate impacts to climate change (e.g. CO2). I said in the first post the current regulatory situation wasn't logical. But we can't even get law makers to agree with scientists that climate change is real and caused by CO2. And it's certainly not going to change in the next 4 years.
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    4. 03-22-2017 05:47 PM #78
      Quote Originally Posted by Triumph View Post
      "So, in light of the EPA's viewpoint or authority to regulate vehicle emissions, a TDI is in fact worse for the environment than a Ford Raptor that gets 12 mpg. "

      Smog is not the only measure of environmental impact. So a TDI IS NOT "in fact" worse for the environment than a Ford Raptor. From one VERY NARROW point of view it is worse. Sorry.
      Forget Ford Raptors for minute, put that on a shelf. Now, VW sold vehicles that were suppose to meet certain environmental standards. When it was discovered that the vehicles didn't meet those standards, standards that other car makers too must pass, those noncompliant VW vehicles had to be either fixed or taken off the road. It was VW that surmised that it was too costly to bring these cars up to standard and replacement was the path forward.

      Okay, so we can't go and say that the EPA should do anything at this point, they did their part and VW can't make these cars right due to the costs. It is a false argument to say that these VWs are more or less pollutant than another vehicle, they cannot be brought to a proper condition to pass the test made for them. That's key, they have to pass the test designed for them, not a standard for another vehicle in another class, that is irrelevant to the case.

      So, VW can't profitably make the vehicles right and the EPA has no right to change the standard/test for these cars. Other car makers have to pass this test, they can't change the rules just for VW. That would open a door that other makes would try and go through in the future.

      Lastly, look at the pictures of all of those cars. That's VW's fault, a fault of leadership and they should and will bare the burden of what to do with them. The ship has sailed as far as getting them back on the road. VW confirmed that wasn't a good idea from the get go, so I would let that notion go, it's an unworkable path.

    5. Member BUJonathan's Avatar
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      03-22-2017 06:01 PM #79
      Quote Originally Posted by Burnette View Post
      Forget Ford Raptors for minute, put that on a shelf. Now, VW sold vehicles that were suppose to meet certain environmental standards. When it was discovered that the vehicles didn't meet those standards, standards that other car makers too must pass, those noncompliant VW vehicles had to be either fixed or taken off the road. It was VW that surmised that it was too costly to bring these cars up to standard and replacement was the path forward.

      Okay, so we can't go and say that the EPA should do anything at this point, they did their part and VW can't make these cars right due to the costs. It is a false argument to say that these VWs are more or less pollutant than another vehicle, they cannot be brought to a proper condition to pass the test made for them. That's key, they have to pass the test designed for them, not a standard for another vehicle in another class, that is irrelevant to the case.

      So, VW can't profitably make the vehicles right and the EPA has no right to change the standard/test for these cars. Other car makers have to pass this test, they can't change the rules just for VW. That would open a door that other makes would try and go through in the future.

      Lastly, look at the pictures of all of those cars. That's VW's fault, a fault of leadership and they should and will bare the burden of what to do with them. The ship has sailed as far as getting them back on the road. VW confirmed that wasn't a good idea from the get go, so I would let that notion go, it's an unworkable path.
      This. Blaming the EPA is like blaming the victim -- not cool. VW knew the rules, they tried to get around them and got caught. The EPA simply held VW to the same standard they held Chevy to for the Cruze Diesel. In fact, the EPA extended an olive branch and compromised on partial compliance to NOx limits. It took VW like 18 months to come up with a fix to the partial NOx limits, and even then it's only for the most recent gen TDIs. It's likely they will never be able to bring earlier LNT-based cars into compliance.
      Last edited by BUJonathan; 03-22-2017 at 06:03 PM.
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      03-22-2017 06:21 PM #80
      Quote Originally Posted by BUJonathan View Post
      What I stated is a fact. One emits more NOx than the other (even in EPA test mode). And within the framework of what the EPA is allowed to regulate (environmental air quality), NOx is widely accepted as a key contributor to poor air quality and human health. As one example, NOx reduction has been a key contributor to reducing smog in our cities.
      I think what you and he are saying is the same thing -- i.e. that there is more to pollution than NOx, and that NOx is just one little narrow part of it. (But it's the only part the EPA is lawfully allowed to regulate)
      Let them eat cake...

    7. Member Volkl's Avatar
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      03-22-2017 06:38 PM #81
      Quote Originally Posted by Honda_Appliance View Post
      This. I can't believe there is a single TDI driver that was disappointed that their NOx emissions were out of spec. Of all the ways that consumers have been screwed over, why did this get some much traction? I think there is more to the story that we will never know, i.e., some lobbyist persuaded the right person.

      I don't blame anyone for taking the buyout. Who's going to say to no to what was basically a free car for a few years? Still doesn't mean the gov't did the right thing.
      TDI owner here, and I'm rather disappointed that my car was not emissions compliant. I bought the car because I drive 20K+ miles a year, and the fuel economy, torque and 6 speed manual transmission was a nice combination. And I bought into the "Clean Diesel" marketing. I do care about the environment, but I don't think hybrid batteries are any better, so I decided to go with a diesel.

      Plus, when I bought mine in 2015, they were offering nice discounts on the TDIs since gas had dropped so much, people didn't care as much about fuel economy.

      I agree that penalties against VW are stiff, but I don't think they are out of line. They defrauded a lot of people, intentionally. People like to bring up the GM ignition recall, and how it killed people. While that too is awful, GM did not set out to create a faulty ignition, they made a cost/benefit analysis of the issue once it was discovered, and people died as a result. I feel GM should have been punished more, but it does not compare to what VW did.

      Does this all make me want to walk away from the car? I still haven't decided, but right now, I am leaning towards the fix on mine. There is not a single car on the market that can offer everything my Golf wagon does.

    8. Member Triumph's Avatar
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      03-22-2017 07:10 PM #82
      I don't think the guy has any idea of what "in fact" means. A TDI is not "in fact" worse for the environment than a Ford Raptor.
      -Triumph, the Insult Comic Dog

      I saw this in a movie about a bus that had to speed around the city, keeping its speed over fifty, and if its speed dropped, the bus would explode! I think it was called, "The Bus That Couldn't Slow Down."

    9. Member BUJonathan's Avatar
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      03-22-2017 07:25 PM #83
      Quote Originally Posted by Triumph View Post
      I don't think the guy has any idea of what "in fact" means. A TDI is not "in fact" worse for the environment than a Ford Raptor.
      Uhh, I have a name, it's Jonathan. I'm not some some random "guy". And no need to insult people because they don't support your narrative. The EPA has a great document on NOx and why it's regulated:

      https://www3.epa.gov/ttncatc1/dir1/fnoxdoc.pdf

      Again, I explained several times what the EPA is legally allowed to do isn't always logical since they can't directly regulate CO2, and expanded my comments on CO2 later on so you could better understand where I'm coming from. I'm not saying CO2 emissions are unimportant. But the EPA can't regulate them directly, so it's a moot point for discussion. CAFE regulations however do restrict how many gas guzzlers an OEM like Ford can produce. If you have more to respond to or need clarification on what I wrote, please do it over PM.
      Last edited by BUJonathan; 03-22-2017 at 08:55 PM.
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    10. Member sebasEuRo's Avatar
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      03-22-2017 07:36 PM #84
      Wow, I always wondered where they are taking them...such a sad thing to look at. There are some awesome cars in that yard but not good enough for the US consumer. I hope they take them all to Europe and make a nice profit from selling them or their parts, except the US Passat, they can go ahead and burn that.
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    11. Member robr2's Avatar
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      03-22-2017 08:43 PM #85
      Quote Originally Posted by sebasEuRo View Post
      Wow, I always wondered where they are taking them...such a sad thing to look at. There are some awesome cars in that yard but not good enough for the US consumer. I hope they take them all to Europe and make a nice profit from selling them or their parts, except the US Passat, they can go ahead and burn that.
      That would require changing headlights, taillights, bumpers, added wiring, etc. to make them Euro safety compliant. These cars are headed to Africa, Asia, or the crusher.

    12. Senior Member Jettavr666's Avatar
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      03-22-2017 08:47 PM #86
      Quote Originally Posted by BUJonathan View Post
      What I stated is a fact. One emits more NOx than the other (even in EPA test mode). And within the framework of what the EPA is allowed to regulate (environmental air quality), NOx is widely accepted as a key contributor to poor air quality and human health. As one example, NOx reduction has been a key contributor to reducing smog in our cities.

      As a tree hugger, I would love it if the EPA also had authority to regulate impacts to climate change (e.g. CO2). I said in the first post the current regulatory situation wasn't logical. But we can't even get law makers to agree with scientists that climate change is real and caused by CO2. And it's certainly not going to change in the next 4 years.
      Im much more of a centrist when it comes to environmental policy, but I do agree that VW had to right a wrong. Where I disagree is that taking 500k vehicles off the road is going to make a big difference. Dont get me wrong I know the vehicles have flaws, But exporting them to other nations, or crushing good cars that produce much less Co2 than the average american car seems to make little sense, even if the have high Nox emissions. Like you said, and its something I agree with, I think regulating co2 is a much better idea.

    13. Member BUJonathan's Avatar
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      03-22-2017 11:25 PM #87
      Quote Originally Posted by Jettavr666 View Post
      Im much more of a centrist when it comes to environmental policy, but I do agree that VW had to right a wrong. Where I disagree is that taking 500k vehicles off the road is going to make a big difference. Dont get me wrong I know the vehicles have flaws, But exporting them to other nations, or crushing good cars that produce much less Co2 than the average american car seems to make little sense, even if the have high Nox emissions. Like you said, and its something I agree with, I think regulating co2 is a much better idea.
      Agreed, it's unfortunate most cars will be scrapped. Retrofits would've been better for all involved (customers, VW, and the environment). The problem is, I can't think of another example where a manufacturer blatantly designed, built and certified a vehicle with basically no intention of meeting US emissions. Past CAA violations I can think of were minor in comparison, sometimes accidental, and could generally fixed with software reflashes or minor hardware updates.

      If our government had consensus that CO2 causes global warming we would have a wider adoption of BEVs and PHEVs, and a stronger push at the federal level to invest in charging infrastructure. Ironically, that's perhaps the best thing to come out of Dieselgate: VW is being forced to spend money on "green" vehicle technologies, so they're rolling out charging stations. Since VW uses the SAE standard plug, a wider range of BEV owners should be able to use the stations.
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      03-23-2017 03:21 AM #88
      Same thing in Tampa

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      03-23-2017 01:00 PM #89
      It appears the city of Pontiac is fining the owner of the Silverdome for not getting the proper permits to park thousands of VW TDI's. Ooops!!

      http://www.freep.com/story/money/bus...gens/99506732/

    16. Member Ryan1981's Avatar
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      03-23-2017 03:53 PM #90
      Quote Originally Posted by CruznMalibu View Post
      It appears the city of Pontiac is fining the owner of the Silverdome for not getting the proper permits to park thousands of VW TDI's. Ooops!!

      http://www.freep.com/story/money/bus...gens/99506732/
      Who knew that you needed a permit to park cars....in a parking lot.

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      03-23-2017 04:08 PM #91
      Quote Originally Posted by Ryan1981 View Post
      Who knew that you needed a permit to park cars....in a parking lot.
      Yes you do.

      You also need a permit to cook in a kitchen, if you're a restaurant.

      Or to sell homes if you're a real estate agent.

      Or to sell cars if you're a dealership.

      Business licenses, they exist you know.

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      03-23-2017 04:16 PM #92
      so, with such a large parking lot, what do they do with the keys and other car related documents? Do they leave them in the car? do they put them under the fender? is there a safety box outside where all the keys are held like at a valet place?

      I can't wait to see some VWs fixed and back on the road, so I can buy a few for cheap

    19. Member G60 Carat's Avatar
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      03-23-2017 04:20 PM #93
      Quote Originally Posted by spoonie View Post

      I'm amazed they're not allowed to simply take them out of the USA and sell them somewhere less discerning.
      Wish they would.

      What is to become of these cars? Are they being made compliant? Or dismantled?
      Last edited by G60 Carat; 03-24-2017 at 08:07 AM.
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      03-23-2017 04:21 PM #94
      Quote Originally Posted by Dubveiser View Post
      Yes you do.

      You also need a permit to cook in a kitchen, if you're a restaurant.

      Or to sell homes if you're a real estate agent.

      Or to sell cars if you're a dealership.

      Business licenses, they exist you know.
      Thanks for the business lesson. Nice work on picking up on the sarcasm of my comment.

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      03-23-2017 04:46 PM #95
      The last time I drove by that Mitsu plant in Normal, IL. was back in the DSM days. IIRC, they had a brand new 1998ish Eclipse GSX parked out front on a concrete pedestal. It's been nearly 20 years. My, how time flies.
      Quote Originally Posted by cockerpunk
      this is due to your inexperience with performance driving . . . you really do have to take a car to a performance driving event, track day, autocross, ice race etc to get a feel for how a car actually performs. and you have to have the knowledge and skill to be able to manipulate the car in such a way as to get it and keep it at the edge.

    22. 03-23-2017 09:37 PM #96
      Quote Originally Posted by Lucian1988 View Post
      so, with such a large parking lot, what do they do with the keys and other car related documents? Do they leave them in the car? do they put them under the fender? is there a safety box outside where all the keys are held like at a valet place?
      It would be a logistical nightmare to do anything other than leave everything in the car. Probably unlocked, too ... hence the security. Every one of those cars is going to have a dead battery by the time this plays out!

      Quote Originally Posted by G60 Carat View Post
      What is to become of these cars? Are they being made complaint? Or dismantled?
      No one yet knows, because none of these cars has a fully approved fix yet. The Gen 3 models (2015) only have phase one of a two-part fix approved ... the second part is still the better part of a year away, and they're not going to be able to sell any of them until they're ready to be fully fixed. And, it is widely suspected that VW is under orders to fix all the cars that are out there on the road (for owners who want a "fix" and keep driving the car) before they even think about fixing and selling cars that they own (whether buyback or never sold in the first place).

      If everyone stayed on the originally stated schedule, it should be known if there is a Gen 1 fix approval (which affects most of the bought-back cars) a week from now, although the drop-dead deadline isn't until sometime in 2018. I suspect reality will be somewhere in between - a couple months from now.

      If VW has dreams of fixing and reselling all or most of these cars, they've got a hard lesson in supply and demand coming. I strongly suspect that only the later and lower-mileage models in good condition (the ones with the highest foreseen resale value) will ever be fixed and sold. The rest will be crusher food.

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      03-29-2017 03:00 PM #97
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      03-29-2017 04:47 PM #98
      Quote Originally Posted by Deltac View Post
      I don't know why but this made me really sad.

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      03-29-2017 05:31 PM #99
      Quote Originally Posted by Dubveiser View Post
      Yes you do.

      You also need a permit to cook in a kitchen, if you're a restaurant.

      Or to sell homes if you're a real estate agent.

      Or to sell cars if you're a dealership.

      Business licenses, they exist you know.
      Also driving on a driveway or parking on a parkway. Frowned upon otherwise.

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      03-29-2017 08:04 PM #100
      Quote Originally Posted by Deltac View Post
      This reminds me of the scene in Who Killed the Electric Car? with the EV1s. Kinda sad.
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