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    Thread: Who else hates the start/stop systems?

    1. Member Form Ocean's Avatar
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      12-23-2018 04:24 PM #51
      At least put the disable switch in a sensible location.


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    3. Geriatric Member BRealistic's Avatar
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      12-23-2018 04:35 PM #52
      Quote Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
      My F150 has the "feature" and there is a program that you can download called Forscan that allows you to disable it. I took care of that last year and haven't thought about the setting for quite a while.
      Would Forscan possibly void the warranty?

    4. Member Engineer90's Avatar
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      12-23-2018 05:11 PM #53
      Quote Originally Posted by scsuh View Post
      i don't mind it. i don't find the start/stop in my golf r to be obtrusive. also, i live in a city where the conditions for stop/start are pretty ideal: there isn't a lot of stop-and-go traffic, but there are a ton of 8-way intersections where one's car just idles for several minutes at a time. if i do hit stop-and-go traffic, i just turn the start/stop feature off.
      Ah ok so that answers it. Didn't know GTIs and Golf Rs had a feature to turn it off.

      On my GTI, the engine sputters a little when I'm on idle. I'm guess less fuel/air since it's idling, but doesn't turn off at all.
      2016 GTI S 6MT 2door

    5. Geriatric Member BRealistic's Avatar
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      12-23-2018 05:14 PM #54
      Again, I would love to see some real world data showing just how much a start/stop system saves in fuel.
      I bet it's pennies.
      And while saving fuel is good, we need to balance that with the investment.
      Start/stop systems require added equipment on a vehicle (redesigned starter/flywheel teeth/battery capacity), which also cost resources.
      Especially if they end up needed service/repairs sooner than "the old way".
      Last edited by BRealistic; 12-23-2018 at 05:16 PM.

    6. Senior Member Sporin's Avatar
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      12-23-2018 06:03 PM #55
      Ford Forscan.

      There’s a bris joke here somewhere.

    7. Member TangoRed's Avatar
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      12-23-2018 06:24 PM #56
      Quote Originally Posted by BRealistic View Post
      Again, I would love to see some real world data showing just how much a start/stop system saves in fuel.
      I bet it's pennies.
      And while saving fuel is good, we need to balance that with the investment.
      Start/stop systems require added equipment on a vehicle (redesigned starter/flywheel teeth/battery capacity), which also cost resources.
      Especially if they end up needed service/repairs sooner than "the old way".
      SAE said it can make up to an 8% difference. https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-car...-fuel-savings/
      Quote Originally Posted by Doug Butabi View Post
      And on the tenth day of the two thousand fifteenth year, TCL finds out about rich people.

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      12-23-2018 06:33 PM #57
      saving fuel at the expense of reliability definitely not a smart option for me.
      “I am not a Mac user unless under duress.” - John Carmack

    9. Member Engineer90's Avatar
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      12-23-2018 06:56 PM #58
      Quote Originally Posted by TangoRed View Post
      SAE said it can make up to an 8% difference. https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-car...-fuel-savings/
      "start-stop can see a car's fuel economy improve by over eight percent in heavy traffic"

      8% seems high, these studies can be flawed and sometimes sponsored by those who benefit from it. Highly doubt it's 8%. Even in idle, most modern cars burn maybe pennies worth of gasoline in heavy traffic. Not only that, but the emissions in most modern cars are very low at idle.

      Think about it this way though; heavy traffic would require hundreds of cycles in one commute. That's the starter starting, fuel pump/s starting, injectors, battery, belts, fans, alternators... the list goes on and on. Reliability will be a huge compromise, no doubt. I would not like to invest in a new car knowing in the back of my head that in let's say 5-6 years when the car reaches 100k miles I'll have problems. This is a big one for me because I do a lot of outdoor activities which make me drive hundreds of miles every weekend, plus I commute to work about 44 miles a day. I might be in the market for a Wrangler next year or the next, the ESS that comes with the Pentastar V6 can be disabled but I'll just get the computer plug-in that disables it permanently. Good thing most cars do have the option to disable, but most people probably don't use it and will regret it. Unless they lease which it wouldn't be of any concern to them.
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    10. Member TangoRed's Avatar
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      12-23-2018 07:31 PM #59
      Quote Originally Posted by Engineer90 View Post
      "start-stop can see a car's fuel economy improve by over eight percent in heavy traffic"

      8% seems high, these studies can be flawed and sometimes sponsored by those who benefit from it. Highly doubt it's 8%. Even in idle, most modern cars burn maybe pennies worth of gasoline in heavy traffic. Not only that, but the emissions in most modern cars are very low at idle.

      Think about it this way though; heavy traffic would require hundreds of cycles in one commute. That's the starter starting, fuel pump/s starting, injectors, battery, belts, fans, alternators... the list goes on and on. Reliability will be a huge compromise, no doubt. I would not like to invest in a new car knowing in the back of my head that in let's say 5-6 years when the car reaches 100k miles I'll have problems. This is a big one for me because I do a lot of outdoor activities which make me drive hundreds of miles every weekend, plus I commute to work about 44 miles a day. I might be in the market for a Wrangler next year or the next, the ESS that comes with the Pentastar V6 can be disabled but I'll just get the computer plug-in that disables it permanently. Good thing most cars do have the option to disable, but most people probably don't use it and will regret it. Unless they lease which it wouldn't be of any concern to them.
      Yeah the Benz engineer I talked to years ago was talking more in the 1-2% range. Regardless, this has technology has been in place for almost a decade now in Europe and I haven’t been hearing of widespread failure of related components. I think that fear is extremely overblown.

      Even in the U.S. this started appearing in many models around 2014. Haven’t heard much on this side of the pond either and many of the family SUVs with this tech are getting up there in miles.
      Last edited by TangoRed; 12-23-2018 at 07:33 PM.
      Quote Originally Posted by Doug Butabi View Post
      And on the tenth day of the two thousand fifteenth year, TCL finds out about rich people.

    11. Member BUJonathan's Avatar
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      12-23-2018 07:39 PM #60
      Quote Originally Posted by Engineer90 View Post
      "start-stop can see a car's fuel economy improve by over eight percent in heavy traffic"

      8% seems high, these studies can be flawed and sometimes sponsored by those who benefit from it. Highly doubt it's 8%. Even in idle, most modern cars burn maybe pennies worth of gasoline in heavy traffic. Not only that, but the emissions in most modern cars are very low at idle.

      Think about it this way though; heavy traffic would require hundreds of cycles in one commute. That's the starter starting, fuel pump/s starting, injectors, battery, belts, fans, alternators... the list goes on and on. Reliability will be a huge compromise, no doubt. I would not like to invest in a new car knowing in the back of my head that in let's say 5-6 years when the car reaches 100k miles I'll have problems. This is a big one for me because I do a lot of outdoor activities which make me drive hundreds of miles every weekend, plus I commute to work about 44 miles a day. I might be in the market for a Wrangler next year or the next, the ESS that comes with the Pentastar V6 can be disabled but I'll just get the computer plug-in that disables it permanently. Good thing most cars do have the option to disable, but most people probably don't use it and will regret it. Unless they lease which it wouldn't be of any concern to them.
      What does SAE have to benefit? And what objective data do you actually have?

      You said you hate start/stop systems. And that's fine. You're entitled to your own oppinion. But don't shoot data down unless you have your own.
      =

    12. Geriatric Member BRealistic's Avatar
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      12-23-2018 08:00 PM #61
      Quote Originally Posted by TangoRed View Post
      SAE said it can make up to an 8% difference. https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-car...-fuel-savings/
      I guess it depends on your driving situations.
      My driving is mostly short in town or long distance commute (highway).
      The redlights here are quick, so if the engine stops.. it's only off for like 10-20 seconds.
      Exactly how much fuel does 20 seconds of idling use?
      Seems stupid for my driving cycle.

    13. Member cuppie's Avatar
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      12-23-2018 08:41 PM #62
      Quote Originally Posted by BRealistic View Post
      I guess it depends on your driving situations.
      My driving is mostly short in town or long distance commute (highway).
      The redlights here are quick, so if the engine stops.. it's only off for like 10-20 seconds.
      Exactly how much fuel does 20 seconds of idling use?
      Seems stupid for my driving cycle.
      You're thinking small scale (micro.) Think large scale (macro.)


      Let's do numbers. Say you (and the average driver around you) does 10,000 miles per year. And, you (and everyone) averages 25mpg in mixed driving. Then, Start/Stop saves you (and everyone) 5% fuel consumption.


      10,000 miles / 25mpg = 400 gallon burned in a year.

      400 * .05 = 20 gallons saved. Just for you. Over a tank a year, yes?


      20 gallons * 1,000,000 vehicles (again, a rough number for a metro area - admittedly, probably small) = twenty million gallons of fuel that was not used that year. In one metro area alone.


      To the naysayers about 'added wear':
      Starters are far more robust. Frankly, I have yet to replace a starter on a Start/Stop BMW; older starters, well.....
      How's the fuel system negatively impacted?
      "Roughness" is going away. Shutdown timings are being optimized (BMW, for example, now kills the engine in the moment before the car stops, masking the shutdown vibration in the car's own stop); also, the engine can now be restarted within 2 revolutions(!). Hell, they can even restart while the engine is still spinning down - again, added smoothness, and faster response time.
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    14. Senior Member Iroczgirl's Avatar
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      12-23-2018 08:44 PM #63
      Quote Originally Posted by Engineer90 View Post
      Same here. Imagine having start/stop with a manual?
      Holy carp! Yeah, I can't imagine.

      Not to mention a loss of longevity, for the sake of a hint of better fuel mileage.
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    15. Member cuppie's Avatar
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      12-23-2018 09:02 PM #64
      Quote Originally Posted by Iroczgirl View Post
      Holy carp! Yeah, I can't imagine.

      Not to mention a loss of longevity, for the sake of a hint of better fuel mileage.
      It's actually better with a manual - engine doesn't stop unless the trans is in neutral, AND the clutch is up (BMW as example; other carmakers may vary.)
      Engine restarts when you're pressing the clutch down - it's running again before you can get the pedal down and the box back in gear.
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    16. Geriatric Member BRealistic's Avatar
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      12-23-2018 09:07 PM #65
      Quote Originally Posted by cuppie View Post
      You're thinking small scale (micro.) Think large scale (macro.)


      Let's do numbers.

      Yes, start stop has the potential to save fuel.
      Thinking large scale, what are the total upfront costs for the heavy duty starter, revised electrical systems, and added electric pumps?
      Taking advantage of start stop means stopping and staying stopped (not creeping, which once started again these systems require a speed to reset and activate again), and NOT using your climate control system in warm weather ( how do they handle this? Most vehicles run the a/c a lot now on most settings to keep moisture off the glass).
      I do admit it can save fuel, but I suspect real world use(all drivers) is more like 1% not 5%.
      Remember, you are saving idling fuel use not driving fuel use.
      Most modern vehicles require several hours at idle to burn even one gallon.
      And the people that drive the most miles usually stay away from traffic light traffic.
      Last edited by BRealistic; 12-23-2018 at 09:09 PM.

    17. Member BUJonathan's Avatar
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      12-23-2018 09:26 PM #66
      Quote Originally Posted by BRealistic View Post
      Yes, start stop has the potential to save fuel.
      Thinking large scale, what are the total upfront costs for the heavy duty starter, revised electrical systems, and added electric pumps?
      Taking advantage of start stop means stopping and staying stopped (not creeping, which once started again these systems require a speed to reset and activate again), and NOT using your climate control system in warm weather ( how do they handle this? Most vehicles run the a/c a lot now on most settings to keep moisture off the glass).
      I do admit it can save fuel, but I suspect real world use(all drivers) is more like 1% not 5%.
      Remember, you are saving idling fuel use not driving fuel use.
      Most modern vehicles require several hours at idle to burn even one gallon.
      And the people that drive the most miles usually stay away from traffic light traffic.
      The benefit is greater for urban and suburban drivers due to longer stop times in the real world versus the EPA fuel economy trace.

      Also, a 1% fuel savings is huuuuge to an automaker. The real savings are in the range of 2-10%, which is significant. One automaker cited up to 12% in the real world. That's phenomenal in engineering terms -- regardless of what the TCL says.

      https://www.edmunds.com/car-reviews/...save-fuel.html
      Last edited by BUJonathan; 12-23-2018 at 09:38 PM.
      =

    18. 12-23-2018 10:31 PM #67
      Quote Originally Posted by BRealistic View Post
      ... and NOT using your climate control system in warm weather ( how do they handle this? Most vehicles run the a/c a lot now on most settings to keep moisture off the glass).
      These systems are smarter than you make them out to be.

      The heater can continue to operate on the stored heat in the coolant for the short periods of stoppage typical of these systems. Generally the climate control system is monitored in the system, and if the time spent stopped is long enough that the heater runs out of stored heat, the engine will start up again.

      Likewise for the air conditioning. Few seconds stopped, you'll never notice. If stopped long enough that the climate control isn't keeping up, engine restarts. And that's assuming the air conditioning compressor is driven by the engine. There's a move towards operating the a/c compressor with an electric motor independently of the engine. The 48V mild hybrid systems that are starting to show up, make that easy to do.

      Battery voltage low? Engine keeps running to keep the alternator charging. Cold engine? engine keeps running to let it continue to warm up. (This covers the window-defrost situation.)

    19. Don't be me. Don't be a 'Rick' Cabin Pics's Avatar
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      12-24-2018 01:08 AM #68
      Quote Originally Posted by TangoRed View Post
      SAE said it can make up to an 8% difference. https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-car...-fuel-savings/
      If I drive 30,000 miles a year and average 27MPG and buy premium fuel at $2.40/gallon, 8% saves me $4.10 per week.

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      12-24-2018 07:21 AM #69
      Doesn’t really bother me. If I want it deactivated in really heavy stop and go traffic, I hit the button.

      But most of the time I just use pedal force to either activate it or leave the car running at a light or stop sign.

      (Maybe years of using wah pedals has given me good foot control).

    21. Geriatric Member BRealistic's Avatar
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      12-24-2018 01:47 PM #70
      Since this seem to be the future (and the vehicles are designed for this without added wear), I will stop deactivating my S/S system.
      Might as well get used to it.

    22. Member what's Avatar
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      12-25-2018 09:59 AM #71
      I've had two cars with start/stop:

      2016 Volvo V60. Left me stranded in the middle of the intersection while making a turn when the starter died at ~1k miles Memorial Day weekend. Didn't have my car for four days and no loner. Never heard a peep from Volvo Cars USA when I called to lodge a complaint. It also had the engagement described by OP. Needless to say, not a fan.

      2017 Audi A4 manual transmission. I leave it on in the Audi. It only engages in neutral with the clutch out, and fires back up as the clutch goes it. It's smoother than the Volvo's system and there's no delay as the car is on by the time the clutch is in. Also if I see a light changing I can just put the clutch in to fire it up (does not start again until you've moved). In traffic, I can just kill my throw out bearing to keep the car on (last part was sarcastic).

      One thing about the Audi I question, start stop will begin as soon as coolant is warm (which is really quickly). However, I usually wait until the oil is at operating temperature before pushing the car and I feel like the engine should be on until the oil is at normal operating temp, not just coolant.
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    23. Member child_in_time's Avatar
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      12-25-2018 03:11 PM #72
      Newer Subarus display fuel savings when ASS is used to further convince consumers to leave it on. I also think it's a gimmick with very minute fuel savings, but manufacturers get $$ from government for having it in their cars and more importantly having it on as default and not allowing user to disable permanently.
      Last edited by child_in_time; 12-25-2018 at 03:24 PM.

    24. Member BUJonathan's Avatar
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      12-25-2018 03:56 PM #73
      Quote Originally Posted by child_in_time View Post
      Newer Subarus display fuel savings when ASS is used to further convince consumers to leave it on. I also think it's a gimmick with very minute fuel savings, but manufacturers get $$ from government for having it in their cars and more importantly having it on as default and not allowing user to disable permanently.
      I wish people would stop spreading falsehoods. The government does not give money for implementing start/stop technology. It provides EPA credits. The reason is because the real world benefit is larger than what is calculated in the EPA fuel economy test cycle.
      =

    25. Member child_in_time's Avatar
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      12-25-2018 04:22 PM #74
      Quote Originally Posted by BUJonathan View Post
      I wish people would stop spreading falsehoods. The government does not give money for implementing start/stop technology. It provides EPA credits. The reason is because the real world benefit is larger than what is calculated in the EPA fuel economy test cycle.
      Automakers get incentives (i said $$, ok) from EPA for having this tech in their cars. Last time I checked, EPA was a government agency...

    26. Member Icantdrive65's Avatar
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      12-25-2018 04:23 PM #75
      My wife's Atlas has it. I turn it on and off while I'm driving, anticipating when I will be idling for a while or if I will I need to accelerate quickly. If you use it like that, it is not annoying. I have always driven manual transmission cars, so operating a push-button as needed becomes intuitive.

      I was skeptical about the system until I watched this video. It breaks down real-world gas consumption with and without the system. If you are at all concerned about the subject, spend the 7 minutes watching the Engineering Explained video.
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