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    Thread: Tesla Model Y Compact Crossover EV Unveil Set For March 14th

    1. Geriatric Member spockcat's Avatar
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      03-15-2019 01:28 PM #226
      Quote Originally Posted by Mazda 3s View Post
      But wouldn't an X3-like design seriously erode efficiency? The Model Y is already about 10 percent or so less efficient than the Model 3 with respect to range. They really dialed in the aero on this thing. If you make it a brick, then you're gonna lessen the range even more, which blunts one of Tesla's key advantages over its EV rivals.
      Is it ironic that the X3 has better fuel efficiency than the same engine X4?

      X3:
      Fuel Economy (city/hwy/combined)
      22 / 29 / 25 mpg

      X4:
      Fuel Economy (city/hwy/combined)
      20 / 28 / 23 mpg

      PS: How efficient is it that you may need to add a roof box or some kind of rack to the X4 to carry the cargo that would have fit inside the X3?
      Last edited by spockcat; 03-15-2019 at 01:31 PM.

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    3. Senior Member AZGolf's Avatar
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      03-15-2019 01:34 PM #227
      Quote Originally Posted by TangoRed View Post
      Wow. Making it look like this would've been an excellent idea. The Model Y will sell great regardless, but I have to think this was a missed opportunity.
      Everybody has been ripping on the Jaguar X-Pace for its low range, but that low range is due to the poor aerodynamics of using a typical SUV shape. If the Model Y came out with 20% less range than what they showed last night and said "But it has a high roofline in the back for when you're loading a dishwasher in the back with the seats up," it wouldn't have had as much appeal. I think they made the right choice.

    4. Member Ark6's Avatar
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      03-15-2019 02:06 PM #228
      Quote Originally Posted by GoFaster View Post
      Not the same body. To me it looks like the vertical axis has been scaled up by about 15%, which of course changes every single body panel and the windows.

      Also: Look at the cut-line of the rear door. The Y has it go down to the black piece and then follows the edge of the black piece (which is a good design, it makes the tolerances on that edge less critical while still looking okay). The 3 has the door cut-line entirely separate from the wheel arch.

      Also: Hatch versus sedan. Changes everything back there.

      Also: The provision for the third row of seating probably means the floor pan is different. Perhaps in the course of redesigning this, they accommodated Sandy Munro's suggestion to simplify the structure in that area.

      It's possible that the headlights and taillights are shared. It's possible that the instrument (?) panel is shared. Front-row and maybe second-row seats have a good chance of being shared. As far as the body in white is concerned, to me it looks like every exterior panel will be different because of that (roughly) 15% scale-up in the vertical axis, and a good part of the floor pan will be different because of the third row of seats.

      It probably shares subframes, suspension parts, drive motors and gear reducers, hubs, brakes, wheels, battery pack, and all the minor bits and pieces under the skin to make it all work.
      What's the wheelbase? If the wheelbase is the same, then it's likely that the floorpan, and the battery case is the same. And most of the interior is likely shared to cut down production costs.

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      03-15-2019 02:22 PM #229
      Quote Originally Posted by spockcat View Post
      Is it ironic that the X3 has better fuel efficiency than the same engine X4?

      X3:
      Fuel Economy (city/hwy/combined)
      22 / 29 / 25 mpg

      X4:
      Fuel Economy (city/hwy/combined)
      20 / 28 / 23 mpg

      PS: How efficient is it that you may need to add a roof box or some kind of rack to the X4 to carry the cargo that would have fit inside the X3?
      You have to compare the 2019s. The 2018 X4 was still the F26, not the G02. The G01 and G02 have identical fuel ratings, so whatever BMW is doing with the SACs, it isn't helping efficiency, it's just lowering the COG.

      https://www.edmunds.com/car-comparis...veh2=401763164
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    6. Senior Member chucchinchilla's Avatar
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      03-15-2019 02:29 PM #230
      Quote Originally Posted by AZGolf View Post
      Everybody has been ripping on the Jaguar X-Pace for its low range, but that low range is due to the poor aerodynamics of using a typical SUV shape. If the Model Y came out with 20% less range than what they showed last night and said "But it has a high roofline in the back for when you're loading a dishwasher in the back with the seats up," it wouldn't have had as much appeal. I think they made the right choice.
      I was curious how true your statement was so I looked it up and here's what I found...
      -Every article points to Jaguar's poor range as being a result of inferior power train to Tesla
      -Jaguar has same drag coefficient as the X3 (.29)
      -BMW X4 actually has worse drag coefficient than X3 (.30)
      -Despite having worse drag coefficient than X3, the X4 still nets the exact same fuel economy

      So yeah, turns out aerodynamics really is not a factor.
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    7. Senior Member bzcat's Avatar
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      03-15-2019 02:33 PM #231
      Quote Originally Posted by chucchinchilla View Post
      I was curious how true your statement was so I looked it up and here's what I found...
      -Every article points to Jaguar's poor range as being a result of inferior power train to Tesla
      -Jaguar has same drag coefficient as the X3 (.29)
      -BMW X4 actually has worse drag coefficient than X3 (.30)
      -Despite having worse drag coefficient than X3, the X4 still nets the exact same fuel economy

      So yeah, turns out aerodynamics really is not a factor.
      I'm just guessing but Y's design parameters must be:

      1. minimize differentiation from 3 as cost saving measure
      2. match X as much as possible for family resemblance

      Remember, Musk's original plan was to design a completely new car for Y but he scaled it back repeatedly until it is just a taller 3. I don't think aerodynamics or efficiency were top of mind.

    8. Geriatric Member spockcat's Avatar
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      03-15-2019 02:42 PM #232
      Quote Originally Posted by ND40oz View Post
      You have to compare the 2019s. The 2018 X4 was still the F26, not the G02. The G01 and G02 have identical fuel ratings, so whatever BMW is doing with the SACs, it isn't helping efficiency, it's just lowering the COG.

      https://www.edmunds.com/car-comparis...veh2=401763164
      Or if I change over to the 3.0 straight 6: https://www.edmunds.com/car-comparis...veh2=401710368

      X3
      Fuel Economy (city/hwy/combined)
      20 / 27 / 23 mpg
      X4
      Fuel Economy (city/hwy/combined)
      18 / 25 / 21 mpg

    9. Member Professor Gascan's Avatar
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      03-15-2019 02:45 PM #233
      Quote Originally Posted by AZGolf View Post
      Everybody has been ripping on the Jaguar X-Pace for its low range, but that low range is due to the poor aerodynamics of using a typical SUV shape. If the Model Y came out with 20% less range than what they showed last night and said "But it has a high roofline in the back for when you're loading a dishwasher in the back with the seats up," it wouldn't have had as much appeal. I think they made the right choice.
      Except that the Jaguar I-Pace doesn't have a traditional SUV profile. The I-Pace's range issue is down to Jaguar's electric tech and choices they made around that.


    10. Senior Member bzcat's Avatar
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      03-15-2019 02:47 PM #234
      Quote Originally Posted by spockcat View Post
      Or if I change over to the 3.0 straight 6: https://www.edmunds.com/car-comparis...veh2=401710368

      X3
      Fuel Economy (city/hwy/combined)
      20 / 27 / 23 mpg
      X4
      Fuel Economy (city/hwy/combined)
      18 / 25 / 21 mpg
      You are still comparing 2 different generations. 2018 X3 is the new generation vs. 2018 X4, which is the previous generation.

      Change both to 2019 and the numbers are the same for I6

      https://www.edmunds.com/car-comparis...veh2=401763165

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      03-15-2019 03:20 PM #235
      Quote Originally Posted by bzcat View Post
      You are still comparing 2 different generations. 2018 X3 is the new generation vs. 2018 X4, which is the previous generation.

      Change both to 2019 and the numbers are the same for I6

      https://www.edmunds.com/car-comparis...veh2=401763165
      Yeah, the 2018 X3 M40i has the B58, the 2018 X4 M40i still has the N55. Once they're both on the same platform, they're back to using identical engines.
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    12. Senior Member AZGolf's Avatar
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      03-15-2019 03:30 PM #236
      Quote Originally Posted by chucchinchilla View Post
      I was curious how true your statement was so I looked it up and here's what I found...
      -Every article points to Jaguar's poor range as being a result of inferior power train to Tesla
      -Jaguar has same drag coefficient as the X3 (.29)
      -BMW X4 actually has worse drag coefficient than X3 (.30)
      -Despite having worse drag coefficient than X3, the X4 still nets the exact same fuel economy

      So yeah, turns out aerodynamics really is not a factor.
      The X3 and X4 are not EVs. The I-Pace has a .29 CD but the Tesla Model Y (an electric car) has a CD of 0.23. That's the difference. For .29 versus .30 in an ICE vehicle that's so close as to have a lot else going on - different engines, different total frontal area (total drag is the frontal area times cd) and transmission choice. It's best to compare EV to EV, hence I-Pace versus Model Y. That's where you see the large CD difference and the pronounced range difference, though there are some reports of the I-Pace's EPA range being at the low end of the real world range and often Tesla's is pretty spot on. Further, we don't know the kwh capacity of the Model Y at this time, though we can expect it should be at least ballpark to the Jaguar.
      Last edited by AZGolf; 03-15-2019 at 03:50 PM.

    13. 03-15-2019 03:56 PM #237
      Quote Originally Posted by AZGolf View Post
      Further, we don't know the kwh capacity of the Model Y at this time, though we can expect it should be at least ballpark to the Jaguar.
      It is probably very safe to say the Long-Range uses the Model 3 Long Range pack so 75 kWh.... the Standard Range is probably a bit more questionable, but a similar downgrade in range signals to be it is likely using the Mid Range pack so ~62 kWh.


    14. Member Car Problems's Avatar
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      03-15-2019 07:34 PM #239
      ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ Every Tesla looks exactly the same.

    15. Senior Member Mazda 3s's Avatar
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      03-15-2019 07:55 PM #240
      Quote Originally Posted by Car Problems View Post
      ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ Every Tesla looks exactly the same.
      Just like BMW, Audi, Mercedes 😂
      "Of course that's just my opinion; I could be wrong."

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    16. 03-15-2019 10:11 PM #241
      Quote Originally Posted by Car Problems View Post
      ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ Every Tesla looks exactly the same.
      Quote Originally Posted by Mazda 3s View Post
      Just like BMW, Audi, Mercedes 😂
      And the BMW, Audi, Mercedes (and Jaguar) all look like each other; at least a Tesla (whichever model it happens to be) can be picked out of that crowd!

    17. Member TangoRed's Avatar
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      03-15-2019 11:06 PM #242
      Quote Originally Posted by GoFaster View Post
      And the BMW, Audi, Mercedes (and Jaguar) all look like each other; at least a Tesla (whichever model it happens to be) can be picked out of that crowd!
      Uh...I'd say that's a step too far, but OK.
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      03-16-2019 12:33 AM #243
      Quote Originally Posted by Professor Gascan View Post
      Except that the Jaguar I-Pace doesn't have a traditional SUV profile. The I-Pace's range issue is down to Jaguar's electric tech and choices they made around that.

      It doesn't have a traditional SUV profile, but it also isn't as aerodynamic as Tesla's cars, which hurts range.

      I feel like using suppliers instead of building/designing their own stuff in house led to the pack taking up more cabin space and the drivetrain efficiency taking a (relative) hit, so they decided to make the car taller on top of that to differentiate it from the 3 as a mid-size CUV/SUV instead of a mid-size sedan, which further reduced it's range.

    19. 03-16-2019 08:30 AM #244
      10 pages in...and this hasn't been posted yet? (I swear I checked)


    20. Geriatric Member spockcat's Avatar
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      03-16-2019 09:55 AM #245
      Someone has pointed out that if this is the final design, even very mild rear end crashes will be very costly. Although the Model X's bumper/hatch is similar.





    21. 03-16-2019 12:12 PM #246
      The Model 3 is the same way ... and plenty of vehicles from other manufacturers are the same way.

      The current Ford Escape has a separately-replaceable piece at the bottom of the liftgate because of this.

      Bumpers aren't meant to be used as bumpers any more.

    22. 03-16-2019 12:15 PM #247
      Quote Originally Posted by jaystone View Post
      10 pages in...and this hasn't been posted yet? (I swear I checked)

      Why make a vehicle in a segment that are selling like hotcakes? Musk said they expect this to outsell the Model 3 and Model X combined.

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      03-16-2019 01:01 PM #248
      Quote Originally Posted by jaystone View Post
      10 pages in...and this hasn't been posted yet? (I swear I checked)
      I just assume you're asking car buyers and not Tesla right?

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      03-16-2019 01:10 PM #249
      Quote Originally Posted by spockcat View Post
      Someone has pointed out that if this is the final design, even very mild rear end crashes will be very costly. Although the Model X's bumper/hatch is similar.
      People don't really consider that when buying a car, have you seen a prius? You know that corner bumper dent that 90% of camry's have?

      signatures are annoying, right?

    25. Geriatric Member spockcat's Avatar
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      03-16-2019 01:28 PM #250
      Quote Originally Posted by GoFaster View Post
      The Model 3 is the same way ... and plenty of vehicles from other manufacturers are the same way.

      The current Ford Escape has a separately-replaceable piece at the bottom of the liftgate because of this.

      Bumpers aren't meant to be used as bumpers any more.

      Looks like the Model 3 has an inch or two of bumper before someone tapping it would hit the tailgate.



      Quote Originally Posted by A.Wilder View Post
      People don't really consider that when buying a car, have you seen a prius? You know that corner bumper dent that 90% of camry's have?


      The Prius also has several inches of bumper before the tailgate would be touched.

      The tailgate of the Model Y sticks out as far as any portion of the bumper.



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