VWVortex.com - The New "Supra" and What it Means for the Car World.
Username or Email Address
Do you already have an account?
Forgot your password?
  • Log in or Sign up

    VWVortex


    The Car Lounge
    Page 5 of 6 FirstFirst 123456 LastLast
    Results 101 to 125 of 145

    Thread: The New "Supra" and What it Means for the Car World.

    1. Member The_Real_Stack's Avatar
      Join Date
      Oct 18th, 2016
      Location
      Arlington Heights, the center of the universe
      Posts
      1,206
      Vehicles
      AP1 and JLU
      05-15-2019 09:51 AM #101
      Quote Originally Posted by cockerpunk View Post
      neither of these posts are counter points.

      lol
      Because we know you don’t know how to have a real discussion. It’s not worth responding to you for realz. Don’t be mad, have a glass of milk.


      Quote Originally Posted by Volkl View Post
      My wife wanted a SUV with a manual transmission. I suggested a Wrangler, she said no way, too masculine

    2. Remove Advertisements

      Advertisements
       

    3. Senior Member AZGolf's Avatar
      Join Date
      Jun 6th, 2000
      Location
      Phoenix area
      Posts
      32,685
      05-15-2019 10:12 AM #102
      Quote Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
      Cayman and Corvette.
      OK. So 20% of Caymans had the manual and 23% of Corvettes had manual each for 2016 or 2017. The general trend is that MT take rates are falling as PDK/Auto keep getting better.

      I enjoyed the MKIV with a 6-speed MT years ago when I got to drive one around a few days and at the track, but the reality is that Toyota was very up front about how this was a budget-limited product. That's the whole reason both of their sports coupes are joint ventures: the FR-S with Subaru and the Supra with BMW. Obviously Toyota didn't want to take a big risk with either car since both are joint ventures. Maybe we'll see an MT Supra at some point but from a business standpoint, I think they made the right call. It appears only about 1 in 5 buyers of their competitors pick MT even as of a couple years ago. They made a business risk assessment and we are getting the Supra AT for now.

    4. Member
      Join Date
      Aug 4th, 2005
      Posts
      1,185
      Vehicles
      2016 RAV4 Hybrid, MK5 Jetta
      05-15-2019 10:13 AM #103
      Quote Originally Posted by AZGolf View Post
      Not even one whole generation, to be honest. Firstly, the MKIV was mostly sold as non-turbo models and I recall for a very long time that it was quite expensive to turbo a non-turbo model and not have it blow up afterwards or destroy the (weaker) transmission if you did build up the engine significantly. So of the rare turbo versions of the MKIV, only 93-95 were OBD-I, which was the hot version. Of those, only 2991 in total among all 3 years, slicktop and targa were the 6-speed manual.

      By 96, the manual was gone, though it returned for 97 and 98 but the slicktop (lighter and more desirable) was discontinued. So they managed to sell just 1047 more 6-speed models for a grand total of 4038 6-speed, twin turbo models across all years and both OBD-I and OBD-II. I'm not even going to get started on how basically none of them were genuinely legal since the #1 Supra mod was to remove the catalysts back then, but whatever. They were cool cars. My brother-in-law had a 94 6-speed twin turbo with the so-called BPU+ upgrades and I got to drive it around town a few times and we took it to Willow Springs too. Very fun car, but basically it was only fun in manual and only fun in turbo, and only easiest to legally mod in OBD-I form.

      So like... 3000 of the 11,000+ MKIV Supras were the "legendary" ones, and honestly even of those, it was only the modded ones that were kind of a big deal. Does any of that matter? I don't know, maybe to some. Maybe it's revisionist history by people who don't want to admit how not-special the majority of Supras have been. I kind of just don't care. I'm excited that there's a new one and that it's shown to be a pretty good performer in a straight line as well as a great handling car.

      Plus, we all know that even an 800hp MKIV still runs 12s in the quarter, so I guess that means even the brand new ones are just as quick in a quarter mile race?
      Thanks for this, by far, best post in this thread

    5. Member cockerpunk's Avatar
      Join Date
      May 17th, 2010
      Location
      Twin Cities MN
      Posts
      6,462
      Vehicles
      #81 SM 1.6
      05-15-2019 10:14 AM #104
      Quote Originally Posted by The_Real_Stack View Post
      Because we know you don’t know how to have a real discussion. It’s not worth responding to you for realz. Don’t be mad, have a glass of milk.


      its kind of creepy that you follow me around and post pics trying to insult me. if was i was insulted by them, why would i have them available publicly exactly?

      its pretty pathetic, but its also pretty creepy.

      you do you man. you do you.
      Quote Originally Posted by VigorousZX View Post
      In their unquenchable thirst for world domination, the aristocrats tax peoples time so as to keep its cattle viewed populations forever in servitude. They have gone as far as brainwashing and banning the western world that marrying your first cousin is forbidden and results in retardation... and thus have disturbed human evolutionary densities because broken families are easier to control and will better fall into debt slavery.

    6. Member
      Join Date
      Aug 4th, 2005
      Posts
      1,185
      Vehicles
      2016 RAV4 Hybrid, MK5 Jetta
      05-15-2019 10:28 AM #105
      Quote Originally Posted by CTK View Post
      I don't think anyone said this actually
      Maybe not that specific quote, but the mentality is the same.

      Some people just dislike new cars. It takes them time to warm up to current tech, design, features and ''feel''.

      My uncle is like this. In the 80's, his favorite era was the 60's. In the 90's his favorite cars were from the 70's. In the 00's it was the 80's. Etc, etc, etc.

      Now he's bitching about how complicated current cars and how analog and simple cars for early 00's were. He's been literally complaining about new cars as long as I can remember. Some people are just like that. Then years later he warms up to an automotive era and remembers it fondly.

      People are allowed to dislike current cars. I have no issue with that.

      Saying new cars are ''worse'' however, is just insane, like my uncle. Today's car are better in pretty much every possible aspect, that's not even arguable. That doesn't mean you have to like them, but they are definetaly not worse.
      Last edited by Dubveiser; 05-15-2019 at 10:31 AM.

    7. Member
      Join Date
      Aug 4th, 2005
      Posts
      1,185
      Vehicles
      2016 RAV4 Hybrid, MK5 Jetta
      05-15-2019 10:30 AM #106
      Quote Originally Posted by worth_fixing View Post
      i don't get it; why build an almost great car, and then stop?
      Probably because it's even better with the ZF8 auto.

    8. Member
      Join Date
      Feb 27th, 2016
      Posts
      261
      Vehicles
      2016 GSW TSI, AT, Comfortline, H&R street performance coil-overs
      05-15-2019 10:37 AM #107
      I've been struggling to understand why people like this car...but it's just not working for me. Whenever I see one, I keep seeing what typically happens when someone is drowning and someone jumps in and tries to save them: the drowning person pulls them under too. This thing is just plain fugly.

    9. Member
      Join Date
      Jan 18th, 2018
      Posts
      2,965
      Vehicles
      '13 Optima SX-L, '11 MKX, '06 ER-6N
      05-15-2019 10:46 AM #108
      Quote Originally Posted by Dubveiser View Post
      Maybe not that specific quote, but the mentality is the same.

      Some people just dislike new cars. It takes them time to warm up to current tech, design, features and ''feel''.

      My uncle is like this. In the 80's, his favorite era was the 60's. In the 90's his favorite cars were from the 70's. In the 00's it was the 80's. Etc, etc, etc.

      Now he's bitching about how complicated current cars and how analog and simple cars for early 00's were. He's been literally complaining about new cars as long as I can remember. Some people are just like that. Then years later he warms up to an automotive era and remembers it fondly.

      People are allowed to dislike current cars. I have no issue with that.

      Saying new cars are ''worse'' however, is just insane, like my uncle. Today's car are better in pretty much every possible aspect, that's not even arguable. That doesn't mean you have to like them, but they are definetaly not worse.
      Some people are just reflexively resistant to change, even if it's for the better- no argument there

      The abandonment of the manual transmission is not necessarily a change for the better, at least in performance cars. Nobody misses manual transmission 4 banger Camrys, but the fact that manual transmission only performance cars like the GT350, Civic Si/R, Veloster N etc. continue to exist = there's still plenty of healthy demand. All of the Supra's competitors besides its platform mate and the soon to be dead TT have manuals. M2 has a manual. So the insistence that it couldn't be done or that ditching the manual is progress just smells like beancounter bull**** run through a marketing filter to me.

    10. Member col.mustard's Avatar
      Join Date
      Jul 16th, 2008
      Location
      Charlotte, NC
      Posts
      2,365
      Vehicles
      mk4 futura 1.8T GTI, mk6 CW GTI, awd outlander sport
      05-15-2019 10:50 AM #109
      Quote Originally Posted by Sporin View Post
      Question: Why does the new Supra have to "mean" anything?
      praise the lowered
      ¡save manuel!

      Originally Posted by George Bluth >>
      It's so obnoxious when VW Golf/Jetta owners comment

    11. Senior Member Sporin's Avatar
      Join Date
      Feb 17th, 1999
      Location
      Vermont, USA
      Posts
      31,154
      Vehicles
      '94 Miata - '16 RAV4 - '10 Prius
      05-15-2019 10:57 AM #110
      Quote Originally Posted by col.mustard View Post



    12. 05-15-2019 11:09 AM #111
      Quote Originally Posted by cockerpunk View Post
      the only thing the supra has that a c6 isnt better at .... is a warranty. for less than half the price.
      Yeah I mean you could buy three Spec Miata Majors front runners for that much

    13. Member The_Real_Stack's Avatar
      Join Date
      Oct 18th, 2016
      Location
      Arlington Heights, the center of the universe
      Posts
      1,206
      Vehicles
      AP1 and JLU
      05-15-2019 11:23 AM #112
      Quote Originally Posted by cockerpunk View Post
      its kind of creepy that you follow me around and post pics trying to insult me. if was i was insulted by them, why would i have them available publicly exactly?

      its pretty pathetic, but its also pretty creepy.

      you do you man. you do you.
      You're the only Cockerpunk on the internet, it's 2 seconds on a google image search, not following you around.

      Quote Originally Posted by Volkl View Post
      My wife wanted a SUV with a manual transmission. I suggested a Wrangler, she said no way, too masculine

    14. Member cockerpunk's Avatar
      Join Date
      May 17th, 2010
      Location
      Twin Cities MN
      Posts
      6,462
      Vehicles
      #81 SM 1.6
      05-15-2019 11:33 AM #113
      Quote Originally Posted by The_Real_Stack View Post
      You're the only Cockerpunk on the internet, it's 2 seconds on a google image search, not following you around.

      and yet you magically post them in every thread ....
      Quote Originally Posted by VigorousZX View Post
      In their unquenchable thirst for world domination, the aristocrats tax peoples time so as to keep its cattle viewed populations forever in servitude. They have gone as far as brainwashing and banning the western world that marrying your first cousin is forbidden and results in retardation... and thus have disturbed human evolutionary densities because broken families are easier to control and will better fall into debt slavery.

    15. Member
      Join Date
      Jan 18th, 2018
      Posts
      2,965
      Vehicles
      '13 Optima SX-L, '11 MKX, '06 ER-6N
      05-15-2019 12:19 PM #114
      Yea posting people's pics is hoe ****, sorry The_Real_Stack

      cockerpunk is a hyperbolic idiot but you are even lower for letting him get in your feelings

    16. Member The_Real_Stack's Avatar
      Join Date
      Oct 18th, 2016
      Location
      Arlington Heights, the center of the universe
      Posts
      1,206
      Vehicles
      AP1 and JLU
      05-15-2019 12:27 PM #115
      Quote Originally Posted by CTK View Post
      Yea posting people's pics is hoe ****, sorry The_Real_Stack

      cockerpunk is a hyperbolic idiot but you are even lower for letting him get in your feelings
      what's "hoe ****"?


      I'm just here to amuse myself.
      Quote Originally Posted by Volkl View Post
      My wife wanted a SUV with a manual transmission. I suggested a Wrangler, she said no way, too masculine

    17. Member GTijoejoe's Avatar
      Join Date
      Oct 5th, 2001
      Posts
      7,955
      Vehicles
      '06 Evo Mr, '17 Ridgeline RTL, '18 Accord Sport
      05-15-2019 01:07 PM #116
      Quote Originally Posted by CTK View Post
      Some people are just reflexively resistant to change, even if it's for the better- no argument there

      The abandonment of the manual transmission is not necessarily a change for the better, at least in performance cars. Nobody misses manual transmission 4 banger Camrys, but the fact that manual transmission only performance cars like the GT350, Civic Si/R, Veloster N etc. continue to exist = there's still plenty of healthy demand. All of the Supra's competitors besides its platform mate and the soon to be dead TT have manuals. M2 has a manual. So the insistence that it couldn't be done or that ditching the manual is progress just smells like beancounter bull**** run through a marketing filter to me.
      Once upon a time, automatic transmissions (general term) sucked. Their shifting, their weight, their ability to hold high power, their price. Over the years they got better, but still no comparison to a manual in a performance aspect.... you know this, most of us know this.

      Today, auto's are superior to manual transmissions, they still cost more generally but there is certainly proof from a development stand point for the beancounters.
      When making a manual and auto variation, there are more than just a handful of items you have to consider, and because of volume I'd imagine the ends don't justify the means.
      Trans & clutch components, RR diff, all of the mounts, axles, driveshaft, 3rd pedal, master cylinder + reservoir + lines, commonization for the dashboard to support two variants, commonization for the tunnel to accept two variants, interior components, engine calibration, braking calibration, manufacturing variations, additional development vehicles, additional development testing, + alpha.
      + Alpha = changes to parts which are not related to the variant specifically but must change because of packaging. Also, variant costs being a "low volume" tax by the suppliers because no one likes making low volume parts.

      When considering a variant, we are not talking + millions, we are in the +10's of millions of investment, in addition to +10's of millions of development, it gets pretty expensive.
      You may be able to reduce part cost or investment by some reasonable amount (carryover parts), but you wont be able to impact the development and engineering costs significantly.
      All that said you made a manual, which cost a **** ton of money for a car which is slower 0-60 time, slower 1/4 mile time, and slower lap times generally speaking for majority of the tracks.

      As a whole, manuals are decreasing because when available, people are buying less of them, that's fact.
      If the market had auto's for all the manual only cars mentioned, I think we would see the truth behind other models which do.
      When developing a vehicle with a limited market scope already, with limited profitability if any already, adding a variant is typically not an A level executive decision for the first model years. Beancounters scenario is a very real thing. Just because its been done before, doesn't mean anyone else can do it, each vehicle development can have different items to consider to make or break what the market gets.
      2.0T+034efi+meth = 300+whp = RIP

      Quote Originally Posted by Ryukein View Post
      Everyone always praises function over form until the form is something that they don't like

    18. Member
      Join Date
      Jan 18th, 2018
      Posts
      2,965
      Vehicles
      '13 Optima SX-L, '11 MKX, '06 ER-6N
      05-15-2019 01:15 PM #117
      I understand why autos are getting more popular; my current daily is an auto and I think I'm on the auto daily train for good. But is it really tens of millions more in development? Supra/Z4 are on the same CLAR platform as the 3er which has manual transmission variants. There are B58 cars with manual transmissions. You make it sound like BMW would have to develop all this stuff from scratch.

    19. Don't be me. Don't be a 'Rick' Cabin Pics's Avatar
      Join Date
      Mar 19th, 2008
      Location
      In The Woods
      Posts
      10,054
      Vehicles
      2004 E46, 2018 SQ5
      05-15-2019 01:26 PM #118
      Quote Originally Posted by The_Real_Stack View Post
      what's "hoe ****"?


      I'm just here to amuse myself.
      I believe hoe **** is manure that's been touched by a hoe. I don't get the agricultural reference but it's 2019, so what do I know?
      Instagram - efrie004

      Buy my E46 sport springs. H&R part # 29485 - PM for details.

    20. Member
      Join Date
      Oct 7th, 2006
      Location
      CT
      Posts
      2,158
      Vehicles
      Evo VIII, BMW e12, XTerra
      05-15-2019 03:36 PM #119
      Quote Originally Posted by AZGolf View Post
      OK. So 20% of Caymans had the manual and 23% of Corvettes had manual each for 2016 or 2017. The general trend is that MT take rates are falling as PDK/Auto keep getting better.

      Just as a counterpoint, >50% of M2s sold are manuals.


      “The BMW M2 Competition still has the manual for a reason, because in the U.S. we have more than a 50 percent take rate on manual transmissions for the M2,” he said
      https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a2...ssionsfor-now/

    21. Member masa8888's Avatar
      Join Date
      May 5th, 2003
      Location
      Reston VA
      Posts
      8,051
      Vehicles
      2019 VW Atlas SEL R-Line, 2000 911 Carrera, 2005 Audi TT 3.2 Quattro
      05-15-2019 03:44 PM #120
      Quote Originally Posted by Quinn1.8t View Post
      Just as a counterpoint, >50% of M2s sold are manuals.



      https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a2...ssionsfor-now/
      Similar to 991.2 GT3's, which were split evenly at about 50% take rate.

      https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-sho...rsche-911-gt3/

    22. Member
      Join Date
      Jul 25th, 2004
      Location
      Denver/Frankfurt
      Posts
      2,267
      05-15-2019 04:09 PM #121
      Quote Originally Posted by Quinn1.8t View Post
      Just as a counterpoint, >50% of M2s sold are manuals.
      It's also 5% of the base price of the vehicle to get the DCT. When you're paying an extra $2900 on the M2 or $3210 on the Cayman, instead of it just being a no cost option, some buyers are going to choose the manual to save money.
      19 Mini Cooper S Countryman ALL4 6MT JCW Tuning Kit
      18 BMW X3 M40i
      17 Volvo XC90 T6 Inscription P*

    23. Member The_Real_Stack's Avatar
      Join Date
      Oct 18th, 2016
      Location
      Arlington Heights, the center of the universe
      Posts
      1,206
      Vehicles
      AP1 and JLU
      05-15-2019 04:18 PM #122
      Quote Originally Posted by masa8888 View Post
      Similar to 991.2 GT3's, which were split evenly at about 50% take rate.

      https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-sho...rsche-911-gt3/
      I wonder if this 50% represents a real preference, or was it demand limited in some way? I also think that the GT3 itself was limited, so if all real buyers* were able to get one, if that would change in some way.

      *real buyers meaning people who actually tried to get one at the dealer with real money, not schmucks on the internet like me who couldn't buy one even if they were easily available for order
      Quote Originally Posted by Volkl View Post
      My wife wanted a SUV with a manual transmission. I suggested a Wrangler, she said no way, too masculine

    24. Member cockerpunk's Avatar
      Join Date
      May 17th, 2010
      Location
      Twin Cities MN
      Posts
      6,462
      Vehicles
      #81 SM 1.6
      05-15-2019 04:38 PM #123
      Quote Originally Posted by the_paddock View Post
      Yeah I mean you could buy three Spec Miata Majors front runners for that much
      i mean, actually you could

      https://mazdaracers.com/classifieds/...r-winning-car/
      Quote Originally Posted by VigorousZX View Post
      In their unquenchable thirst for world domination, the aristocrats tax peoples time so as to keep its cattle viewed populations forever in servitude. They have gone as far as brainwashing and banning the western world that marrying your first cousin is forbidden and results in retardation... and thus have disturbed human evolutionary densities because broken families are easier to control and will better fall into debt slavery.

    25. Member vwpiloto's Avatar
      Join Date
      Nov 26th, 2006
      Location
      Orange County, CA
      Posts
      10,904
      Vehicles
      M44/40F20CS65
      05-15-2019 04:38 PM #124
      Quote Originally Posted by The_Real_Stack View Post
      I wonder if this 50% represents a real preference, or was it demand limited in some way? I also think that the GT3 itself was limited, so if all real buyers* were able to get one, if that would change in some way.

      *real buyers meaning people who actually tried to get one at the dealer with real money, not schmucks on the internet like me who couldn't buy one even if they were easily available for order
      I'd like to think some of the 50% bought a manual not because they enjoy it more, but because they think their manual GT3 will be worth more later on.

    26. Senior Member JustinCSVT's Avatar
      Join Date
      Oct 3rd, 2004
      Location
      Atlanta, GA
      Posts
      21,295
      Vehicles
      2019 MINI Hardtop
      05-15-2019 04:45 PM #125
      Quote Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
      Cayman and Corvette.
      Well the Corvette is gone so throw that out.

      Toyota would have to spend millions of dollars to satisfy a small amount of buyers on a small volume platform. Unlike the Mustang, Porsches, and 2-series, it can't spread those development costs around.

      I think they might eventually offer this car in manual but like others have said, the take rate will be low enough not to matter.
      Last edited by JustinCSVT; 05-15-2019 at 04:48 PM.

    Page 5 of 6 FirstFirst 123456 LastLast

    Similar Threads

    1. Replies: 8
      Last Post: 07-24-2015, 11:45 PM
    2. Replies: 0
      Last Post: 04-05-2010, 06:47 AM
    3. Question about 2008 European Golf and what it means for the US
      By littlemark in forum Golf V & Jetta V
      Replies: 3
      Last Post: 03-30-2006, 09:21 PM
    4. Is the new b7 worth getting? And what model would you get?
      By audiagb in forum A4, S4, RS4 (B6 and B7)
      Replies: 1
      Last Post: 03-05-2005, 08:18 PM
    5. when does the new s4 come out and what might it look like
      By juvefan20 in forum A4, S4, RS4 (B5)
      Replies: 2
      Last Post: 08-31-2002, 06:20 PM

    Posting Permissions

    • You may not post new threads
    • You may not post replies
    • You may not post attachments
    • You may not edit your posts
    •