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    Thread: The New "Supra" and What it Means for the Car World.

    1. Geriatric Member Air and water do mix's Avatar
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      05-15-2019 05:05 PM #126
      Quote Originally Posted by JustinCSVT View Post
      Well the Corvette is gone so throw that out.

      Toyota would have to spend millions of dollars to satisfy a small amount of buyers on a small volume platform. Unlike the Mustang, Porsches, and 2-series, it can't spread those development costs around.

      I think they might eventually offer this car in manual but like others have said, the take rate will be low enough not to matter.
      In this particular case I think they would probably do better that 15% take rate that the Corolla hatch has and the manual parts are already (mostly) developed, because BMW said as much. Sure, they'd still have to develop a new console/misc interior bits and there would be lots of software engineering, plus federalization, which would still be millions, but it'd be much cheaper than starting from scratch.

      We'll see if it and when it actually comes to fruition.
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    3. Member masa8888's Avatar
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      05-15-2019 05:05 PM #127
      Quote Originally Posted by vwpiloto View Post
      I'd like to think some of the 50% bought a manual not because they enjoy it more, but because they think their manual GT3 will be worth more later on.
      I think it's a combination of both, with a lot of people concerned this is their last shot at buying one with a manual before it's discontinued. Sort of a trickle down effect from Ferrari and Lamborghini, where m/t equipped cars like the F430 and Gallardo sell for a significant premium over automatics. It's part of the reason why I think a Vantage or R8 with a manual is an excellent buy right now.

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      05-15-2019 05:17 PM #128
      Quote Originally Posted by CTK View Post
      I understand why autos are getting more popular; my current daily is an auto and I think I'm on the auto daily train for good. But is it really tens of millions more in development? Supra/Z4 are on the same CLAR platform as the 3er which has manual transmission variants. There are B58 cars with manual transmissions. You make it sound like BMW would have to develop all this stuff from scratch.
      Agreed. If Lotus, who are not exactly overflowing with cash, can somehow manage to afford offering a manual and an automatic transmission on the Evora 400, it seems crazy that Toyota couldn't afford to offer a manual on the new Supra.

    5. Member BlakeV's Avatar
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      05-15-2019 05:37 PM #129
      It is a case that Toyota slept with the devil.

      They couldn't have chosen a company worse than BMW. Welcome to modern engines that ... leak (don't ask me how I know).

    6. Member Meroving1an's Avatar
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      05-15-2019 05:42 PM #130
      Quote Originally Posted by vwpiloto View Post
      I'd like to think some of the 50% bought a manual not because they enjoy it more, but because they think their manual GT3 will be worth more later on.
      Bingo.

    7. Senior Member JustinCSVT's Avatar
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      05-15-2019 05:44 PM #131
      Quote Originally Posted by Canaletto View Post
      Agreed. If Lotus, who are not exactly overflowing with cash, can somehow manage to afford offering a manual and an automatic transmission on the Evora 400, it seems crazy that Toyota couldn't afford to offer a manual on the new Supra.
      What CLAR platform cars have a B58/manual combination?

    8. 05-15-2019 09:45 PM #132
      Quote Originally Posted by cockerpunk View Post
      That's only $5000 more than you said I could do it for. Try again

    9. Member worth_fixing's Avatar
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      05-15-2019 09:49 PM #133
      Quote Originally Posted by JustinCSVT View Post
      Well the Corvette is gone so throw that out.

      Toyota would have to spend millions of dollars to satisfy a small amount of buyers on a small volume platform. Unlike the Mustang, Porsches, and 2-series, it can't spread those development costs around.

      I think they might eventually offer this car in manual but like others have said, the take rate will be low enough not to matter.
      if they only offered a manual, the take rate for the manual would be 100%.
      http://badges.fuelly.com/images/sig-metric/286588.png
      Any car which holds together for a whole race is too heavy.

    10. Member cockerpunk's Avatar
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      05-15-2019 11:19 PM #134
      Quote Originally Posted by the_paddock View Post
      That's only $5000 more than you said I could do it for. Try again
      no it isnt, i never said anything about what a super tour winning car costs. lol

      how are you still confused?
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    11. Senior Member JustinCSVT's Avatar
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      05-15-2019 11:21 PM #135
      Quote Originally Posted by worth_fixing View Post
      if they only offered a manual, the take rate for the manual would be 100%.
      If they only offered a manual, this car would be out of market within two years.

    12. Member worth_fixing's Avatar
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      05-16-2019 04:55 AM #136
      Quote Originally Posted by JustinCSVT View Post
      If they only offered a manual, this car would be out of market within two years.
      is this Supra supposed to be a GT?
      http://badges.fuelly.com/images/sig-metric/286588.png
      Any car which holds together for a whole race is too heavy.

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      05-16-2019 08:20 AM #137
      ”BuT itS StILL juSt A BMW”

      From what I could tell, the car is very easily tunable and configurable. Pretty sure a lot of people had their rosy pink shades on and were trying to compare a stock new Supra to the tuned old ones, as if they had magically came out of the factory as noise machines.

      The lack of a manual and the BMW feel to the inside are my only real complaints about it thus far, yet I haven’t driven one, so that first point could easily be crossed off.

      Although I remember in someone’s video of the car, when he opened the door, the car did its little ‘ding’ chime exactly like BMW’s did (still do?). Reminded me of my friends 335I M from 2012
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    14. Member GTijoejoe's Avatar
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      05-16-2019 11:31 AM #138
      Quote Originally Posted by CTK View Post
      I understand why autos are getting more popular; my current daily is an auto and I think I'm on the auto daily train for good. But is it really tens of millions more in development? Supra/Z4 are on the same CLAR platform as the 3er which has manual transmission variants. There are B58 cars with manual transmissions. You make it sound like BMW would have to develop all this stuff from scratch.
      Yes, literally 10's of Millions.
      You'd be surprised how a "carryover" part as complicated as a transmission is not 100% carryover. They are not identical part numbers, they are not identical parts, even though the base of the part is mostly carryover as a "family". This is very typical, and because you changed the part, even a little bit, you would have development fee's to the suppliers and development internal testing for confirmation.
      Even if you are 100% carryover parts, the real issue is there are predetermined requirement tests OE's have that vehicles must pass. Regardless of the spec of parts applied, its a different car, so that mean you must build prototype variants for all of the development tests and calibration stuff. A high level prototype is a 7 figure number.... that's 6 zeros... stupid expensive. Of course you'll have more than just a handful including dozens of low level prototypes. At this point you're over $10M and you just have cars in your garage. We haven't considered the 1000's of engineering hours or development testing costs.

      Developing cars is outrageously expensive, it's super complicated. It's surprising car manufacturers even make money.

      If the Supra or Z4 does well, I would not be surprised if you see a manual in the future. It's just difficult to invest that type of cash right off the bat.
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    15. Moderator Oliver@triplezoom's Avatar
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      05-16-2019 11:48 AM #139
      This car would have a manual if BMW had chosen to offer the M340i with a manual. Alas, that's not the case.

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      05-16-2019 01:50 PM #140
      Quote Originally Posted by worth_fixing View Post
      is this Supra supposed to be a GT?
      the new Supra (A90) is definitely more sporty (less GT) than the previous one (A80) that everyone hyped about... Just the platform alone, I like the new Supra more than the previous one.

      A90/J29 platform: Z4/Supra
      A80/Z30 platform: Supra/Soarer (Lexus SC)

      And to those who prefer the Frankenstein RC-F over this "BMW" Supra..??

      BTW, we are living in the era that...
      MX5 platform is a JOINT PARTNERSHIP of Mazda and FIAT
      Civic Type R is made in UK (do you really think a car that 100% made in UK will be 100% designed by Japanese??!!)
      Acura/Honda NSX is actually designed and made by American
      The legendary Ford GT is made in Canada
      Modern Rolls Royce/Bentley/Bugatti/Lamborghini are mostly German tech
      New Aston Martin using AMG engines and components.

      And you guys are bitching about Supra is not Japanese enough?? Fxxking car racist...
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    17. Senior Member 6cylVWguy's Avatar
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      05-16-2019 02:34 PM #141
      Quote Originally Posted by Avus View Post
      And to those who prefer the Frankenstein RC-F over this "BMW" Supra..??

      BTW, we are living in the era that...
      MX5 platform is a JOINT PARTNERSHIP of Mazda and FIAT
      Civic Type R is made in UK (do you really think a car that 100% made in UK will be 100% designed by Japanese??!!)
      Acura/Honda NSX is actually designed and made by American
      The legendary Ford GT is made in Canada
      Modern Rolls Royce/Bentley/Bugatti/Lamborghini are mostly German tech
      New Aston Martin using AMG engines and components.

      And you guys are bitching about Supra is not Japanese enough?? Fxxking car racist...
      And none of these actually represent what the "Supra" actually is, which is identical in approach to a Crossfire or Routan.

      MX5 example: Joint venture isn't terribly telling, because inevitably, one group takes the lead. Was it a truly 50:50 process for Mazda/Fiat? And frankly, both versions of the car have a powertrain from the respective brands---which I would say is better than what the "Supra" is bringing to the table. There is no evidence I have seen that Toyota had any influence on the direction of development, other than tweaking transmission and suspension settings. Just like Chrysler with the crossfire.

      Civic Type R: If the biggest dig against the "Supra" was that it wasn't assembled in Japan, I'd be pretty happy. Personally. In this case, it just adds insult to injury for those who care.

      NSX: It's still a corporate Honda effort and fully in-house. Totally different approach than Toyota took with the "Supra"

      Ford GT: See CTR response

      RR/Bentley: Yeah, this is kind of like the "Supra", although the cars still utilize a lot of the traditional craftmanship of the more original cars. The big difference here is that I have no interest in RR/Bentley cars. If I did, I'd probably be just as annoyed. I would be annoyed if I bought a new RR and it had BMW switch gear.

      Aston Martin: I'm conflicted here, as I can totally see why people would be annoyed with the relationship with MB. For me, at least the platform, steering, and suspension are pure AM. And now that AM is adding a manual to the Vantage V8--at their own expense, I have to wonder a bit about the excuses thrown around this thread. If toyota wanted to do something a particular way for a particular reason, they could have. They have the scale, the resources, and the revenue to make anything happen that they want. It's really easy to say that something is just too expensive. In my work world I hear that as well. But you know what, we've gotten much bigger sales from much smaller companies because the person making the decisions had the passion to support the purchase of products my company sells. And all those small companies are still here to tell the story---and they continue buying from us. Common sense suggests that the money issue is merely an excuse and that there just isn't as much of an appetite for a nice toyota developed sports car internally. Perhaps they're gun shy from the last time the Supra was sold in the US.

      Let's not forget here that this is a two way street. Toyota gets a BMW sports car it can call its own, and BMW gets some toyota hybrid technology that they can call their own. I think BMW got the better end of this relationship, IMO.

    18. Member GTijoejoe's Avatar
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      05-17-2019 08:52 AM #142
      Quote Originally Posted by Avus View Post

      And you guys are bitching about Supra is not Japanese enough?? Fxxking car racist...
      hahahahahaha lmao
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      Quote Originally Posted by Ryukein View Post
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    19. Member 88c900t's Avatar
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      05-17-2019 09:31 AM #143
      Quote Originally Posted by CTK View Post
      I understand why autos are getting more popular; my current daily is an auto and I think I'm on the auto daily train for good. But is it really tens of millions more in development? Supra/Z4 are on the same CLAR platform as the 3er which has manual transmission variants. There are B58 cars with manual transmissions. You make it sound like BMW would have to develop all this stuff from scratch.
      I'm pretty certain there aren't any B58 vehicles equipped with a manual, plus the engine was designed just a couple years ago. Thus, developing a manual just for the Supra/Z4 is difficult to justify.


      Quote Originally Posted by cockerpunk View Post
      no it isnt, i never said anything about what a super tour winning car costs. lol

      how are you still confused?
      Imagine being 30 but having the attitude and sentence structure of a 14 year old r/politics poster.
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      05-17-2019 09:49 AM #144
      Quote Originally Posted by 88c900t View Post
      I'm pretty certain there aren't any B58 vehicles equipped with a manual, plus the engine was designed just a couple years ago. Thus, developing a manual just for the Supra/Z4 is difficult to justify.
      There are no CLAR vehicles with the combo but the M140i, M240i, 340i and 440i were all available with it.
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      05-17-2019 09:52 AM #145
      Quote Originally Posted by ND40oz View Post
      There are no CLAR vehicles with the combo but the M140i, M240i, 340i and 440i were all available with it.
      Were they B58 equipped? I thought it was an all new engine released pretty recently
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