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    Thread: This just in: Hydrogen fueling station explodes in Norway, forcing Toyota & Hyundai to halt Fuel Cell Car sales!

    1. Member Uber Wagon's Avatar
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      06-12-2019 12:29 PM #26
      Quote Originally Posted by ChillOutPossum View Post
      Hydrogen was the injured deer flailing on the side of the road. This event is the cop coming along and putting it out of its misery. Finally.
      Beer: The cause of, and solution to, all of life's problems.

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    3. 06-12-2019 12:33 PM #27
      Quote Originally Posted by Air and water do mix View Post
      And you don't need a huge infrastructure with hydrogen concentrated in one area/trucked in/piped in. Dangers are everywhere with hydrogen, but you can juice up just about anywhere with a BEV. You can even set up your own solar array in the middle of a field if you really want. While hydrogen is often touted as "the most abundant element in the universe" it isn't exactly cheap and easy for the end user.
      No one wants "huge infrastructure with hydrogen concentrated in one area/trucked in/piped in" The idea is to create the hydrogen where its needed. The same way you charge a battery to store the energy, you would convert waste water/non potable water/mud into hydrogen to store the energy. Instead of connecting solar panels, etc to batteries made of precious metals, connect them to hydrogen tanks made of less expensive stuff. The same way people have their own propane tanks on their property they could have hydrogen tanks, only the hydrogen tanks would automatically refill. Such an automatically refilling tank is what exploded in Norway...

      In fact batteries are the technology that requires huge centralized infrastructure that doesn't currently exist (hence battery shortages).

      The whole idea behind hydrogen is to make it cheaper for the end user (maybe not easier). You need expensive physical resources to harness, store, and use energy. Hydrogen economies should require less physical resources than battery economies since far less physical resources are used to store the energy in hydrogen vs batteries. Imagine an off the grid third world farm; they wouldn't need to maintain expensive batteries, deal with proper storage, battery lifespan, disposal etc. they would only need their hydrogen generator and equipment. Toyota claimed they solved the storage issue (price and all)... Today people are monetizing batteries' relative thermal dynamic efficiency (a profitable venture in a world with restricted access to energy), but that doesn't mean people can't monetize hydrogen's relative resource efficiency.

    4. Senior Member Lwize's Avatar
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      06-12-2019 12:44 PM #28
      Quote Originally Posted by Unilateral Phase Detractor View Post
      Massive hydrogen explosion? Only one solution: Ban the sun.
      This is not the solution.

      Accidents will only increase in total darkness and, at some point, all life will die off on the planet.
      test test Maki says "hello"

    5. Member Surf Green's Avatar
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      06-12-2019 01:26 PM #29
      Quote Originally Posted by Lwize View Post
      all life will die off on the planet.
      Bringing the number of accidents down to zero. Clearly it's the only rational solution.
      I keep up with traffic with only 90 hp. What's your superpower?
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    6. Geriatric Member Air and water do mix's Avatar
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      06-12-2019 01:42 PM #30
      Quote Originally Posted by jakeyjohn1 View Post
      No one wants "huge infrastructure with hydrogen concentrated in one area/trucked in/piped in" The idea is to create the hydrogen where its needed. The same way you charge a battery to store the energy, you would convert waste water/non potable water/mud into hydrogen to store the energy. Instead of connecting solar panels, etc to batteries made of precious metals, connect them to hydrogen tanks made of less expensive stuff. The same way people have their own propane tanks on their property they could have hydrogen tanks, only the hydrogen tanks would automatically refill. Such an automatically refilling tank is what exploded in Norway...

      In fact batteries are the technology that requires huge centralized infrastructure that doesn't currently exist (hence battery shortages).

      The whole idea behind hydrogen is to make it cheaper for the end user (maybe not easier). You need expensive physical resources to harness, store, and use energy. Hydrogen economies should require less physical resources than battery economies since far less physical resources are used to store the energy in hydrogen vs batteries. Imagine an off the grid third world farm; they wouldn't need to maintain expensive batteries, deal with proper storage, battery lifespan, disposal etc. they would only need their hydrogen generator and equipment. Toyota claimed they solved the storage issue (price and all)... Today people are monetizing batteries' relative thermal dynamic efficiency (a profitable venture in a world with restricted access to energy), but that doesn't mean people can't monetize hydrogen's relative resource efficiency.
      No, batteries can be charged at home for most people on a commute, so no real infrastructure is required for most cities and many people. Sure, if you have an apartment and no outside charging they're not (yet) for you, but there are more people who could use them daily than there are going to be electric cars available for quite a while anyway. It's only long distance travel that needs any additional infrastructure, which is better suited to EREVs.

      Whether or not hydrogen is moved or separated on-site is merely a tangent. It's very energy negative, is extremely volatile and would require massive numbers of fuel cells in leu of batteries, which are still expensive in their own right. There is no "magic bullet" for our transportation problems, but hydrogen has its own set of technical and very dangerous problems as this event clearly points out.
      Quote Originally Posted by Boyz in da Park
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    7. 06-12-2019 02:09 PM #31
      Quote Originally Posted by Air and water do mix View Post
      so no real infrastructure is required for most cities and many people...

      but there are more people who could use them daily than there are going to be electric cars available for quite a while anyway.
      The huge (global scale) infrastructure to build batteries is what I was trying to refer to. As you said, that infrastructure wont exist for "quite a while anyway".

    8. Member G0to60's Avatar
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      06-12-2019 02:27 PM #32
      Quote Originally Posted by jakeyjohn1 View Post
      The huge (global scale) infrastructure to build batteries is what I was trying to refer to. As you said, that infrastructure wont exist for "quite a while anyway".
      Do we have the infrastructure to create large amounts of hydrogen as well? You state that we can use waste water and mud but what about the energy and equipment to remove all the material that isn't water to a purity that is required?

      I'm not trying to troll or anything as I'm genuinely curious if this all exists currently. It seems like it will take a lot more energy and some more equipment to go the hydrogen route over batteries right now and in the near future.

    9. Senior Member AZGolf's Avatar
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      06-12-2019 02:44 PM #33
      Quote Originally Posted by G0to60 View Post
      Do we have the infrastructure to create large amounts of hydrogen as well? You state that we can use waste water and mud but what about the energy and equipment to remove all the material that isn't water to a purity that is required?
      In short, it's not doable. There's dozens of dry, boring reports from companies, agencies, study panels, and universities to explain why hydrogen isn't doable to replace all our transportation needs globally but if you want to watch a video instead, this one is pretty good:



      The guy that makes those videos is something of a futurist and had previously made a video about everything good about hydrogen cars. It was after he started researching it further that he made the follow-up video where he discusses why it has little hope of ever working on a large scale.

    10. 06-12-2019 02:57 PM #34
      Quote Originally Posted by jakeyjohn1 View Post
      No one wants "huge infrastructure with hydrogen concentrated in one area/trucked in/piped in" The idea is to create the hydrogen where its needed. The same way you charge a battery to store the energy, you would convert waste water/non potable water/mud into hydrogen to store the energy. Instead of connecting solar panels, etc to batteries made of precious metals, connect them to hydrogen tanks made of less expensive stuff. The same way people have their own propane tanks on their property they could have hydrogen tanks, only the hydrogen tanks would automatically refill. Such an automatically refilling tank is what exploded in Norway...
      The problem is that small-scale generation of hydrogen has a terrible thermal efficiency. (Even large-scale generation has a lousy efficiency, but small-scale doesn't let you take advantage of the advantages of scale where it exists, so it is even worse.) Sure, you can do it with power from solar panels. But you would need several times more solar panels than you would need to charge modern batteries to get your vehicle a given distance down the road. It ends up being not economically viable.

      Quote Originally Posted by jakeyjohn1 View Post
      In fact batteries are the technology that requires huge centralized infrastructure that doesn't currently exist (hence battery shortages).

      The whole idea behind hydrogen is to make it cheaper for the end user (maybe not easier). You need expensive physical resources to harness, store, and use energy. Hydrogen economies should require less physical resources than battery economies since far less physical resources are used to store the energy in hydrogen vs batteries. Imagine an off the grid third world farm; they wouldn't need to maintain expensive batteries, deal with proper storage, battery lifespan, disposal etc. they would only need their hydrogen generator and equipment. Toyota claimed they solved the storage issue (price and all)... Today people are monetizing batteries' relative thermal dynamic efficiency (a profitable venture in a world with restricted access to energy), but that doesn't mean people can't monetize hydrogen's relative resource efficiency.
      There is no question that there are scale-up problems associated with batteries as well, and some resource-availability issues, but at least they are not fighting against the laws of thermodynamics the way hydrogen is, and always will be.

      Electric vehicle charging can be piggybacked on top of our existing electrical distribution infrastructure ... that is happening now. The electrical distribution infrastructure can be upgraded when needed, as needed. We know how to do it, we just need to do it. Hydrogen ... is not like that. Hydrogen is "start over", and unless you want the same issues with not being able to travel to certain areas, it's "start over everywhere". Electric cars can go anywhere that you can find an electrical outlet, today, with what we've got now.

      "They would only need their hydrogen generator and equipment" ... grossly minimizes what's involved in that equipment. And, as the topic of this thread indicates, all of the associated fire prevention and protection measures, which are complex and expensive to deal with. "Expensive batteries"? LOL, the hydrogen handling equipment is FAR, FAR more expensive than any batteries you care to name ...

    11. Senior Member Lwize's Avatar
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      06-12-2019 03:17 PM #35
      Quote Originally Posted by Surf Green View Post
      Bringing the number of accidents down to zero. Clearly it's the only rational solution.
      It will also solve the global hunger problem and income inequality too.
      test test Maki says "hello"

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      06-12-2019 03:53 PM #36
      Quote Originally Posted by AC1DD View Post
      EVs creating a nuclear like meltdown and now hydrogen stations exploding.......

      Internal Combustion Engine says....Do you miss me yet?

      https://www.youtube.com/results?sear...engine&sp=mAEB

      Guess this also doesn't bode well for the combo technology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrog...engine_vehicle

      "The advantage of using ICE (internal combustion engine) such as wankel and piston engines is that the cost of retooling for production is much lower. Existing-technology ICE can still be used to solve those problems where fuel cells are not a viable solution as yet...."

      "The combustion of hydrogen with oxygen produces water as its only product:

      2H2 + O2 → 2H2O"
      Last edited by suburbangeorge; 06-12-2019 at 03:56 PM.
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    13. Geriatric Member Air and water do mix's Avatar
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      06-12-2019 04:38 PM #37
      Quote Originally Posted by suburbangeorge View Post
      Guess this also doesn't bode well for the combo technology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrog...engine_vehicle

      "The advantage of using ICE (internal combustion engine) such as wankel and piston engines is that the cost of retooling for production is much lower. Existing-technology ICE can still be used to solve those problems where fuel cells are not a viable solution as yet...."

      "The combustion of hydrogen with oxygen produces water as its only product:

      2H2 + O2 → 2H2O"
      But you still have this problem...

      Quote Originally Posted by GoFaster View Post
      The problem is that small-scale generation of hydrogen has a terrible thermal efficiency. (Even large-scale generation has a lousy efficiency, but small-scale doesn't let you take advantage of the advantages of scale where it exists, so it is even worse.) Sure, you can do it with power from solar panels. But you would need several times more solar panels than you would need to charge modern batteries to get your vehicle a given distance down the road. It ends up being not economically viable.

      There is no question that there are scale-up problems associated with batteries as well, and some resource-availability issues, but at least they are not fighting against the laws of thermodynamics the way hydrogen is, and always will be.

      Electric vehicle charging can be piggybacked on top of our existing electrical distribution infrastructure ... that is happening now. The electrical distribution infrastructure can be upgraded when needed, as needed. We know how to do it, we just need to do it. Hydrogen ... is not like that. Hydrogen is "start over", and unless you want the same issues with not being able to travel to certain areas, it's "start over everywhere". Electric cars can go anywhere that you can find an electrical outlet, today, with what we've got now.

      "They would only need their hydrogen generator and equipment" ... grossly minimizes what's involved in that equipment. And, as the topic of this thread indicates, all of the associated fire prevention and protection measures, which are complex and expensive to deal with. "Expensive batteries"? LOL, the hydrogen handling equipment is FAR, FAR more expensive than any batteries you care to name ...
      And there's no way around it.

      Batteries aren't the end-all, be-all solution, but they're a step in the right direction and the technology has promise for more efficiency and different materials in the future. Solid state batteries are a possibility in the medium term, and if they're perfected then they'll be able to charge and discharge at a much higher rate than anything today with little degradation.

      BEVs and fueled vehicles are here for the foreseeable future. Hydrogen? It'll remain small scale as long as it's subsidized, and then it will disappear completely. If BEVs were no longer subsidized then sure, they'd be reduced drastically, but they wouldn't stop research and production. Because future.

      Thanks for the backup and nailing down the issues, GoFaster.
      Quote Originally Posted by Boyz in da Park
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    14. Member Surf Green's Avatar
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      06-12-2019 05:16 PM #38
      Quote Originally Posted by Lwize View Post
      It will also solve the global hunger problem and income inequality too.
      And Global Warming.

      I fail to see a downside.
      I keep up with traffic with only 90 hp. What's your superpower?
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    15. Member BlakeV's Avatar
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      06-12-2019 05:50 PM #39
      Quote Originally Posted by Air and water do mix View Post
      So you stopped reading there? I addressed that clearly.
      I don't think so. Both exist for the very same reason with no "but".

      People overlooks other possibilities like synthetic fuel. I don't think that trillions-large oil companies will let it go without an huge fight.
      https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a1...ero-petroleum/
      Last edited by BlakeV; 06-12-2019 at 06:14 PM.

    16. Geriatric Member Air and water do mix's Avatar
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      06-12-2019 07:33 PM #40
      Quote Originally Posted by BlakeV View Post
      I don't think so. Both exist for the very same reason with no "but".

      People overlooks other possibilities like synthetic fuel. I don't think that trillions-large oil companies will let it go without an huge fight.
      https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a1...ero-petroleum/
      I’m aware that progress is being made there. I was speaking of petroleum, hydrogen and BEVs.

      I’m all for synthetic fuel if it can be made large scale, but that’s the real trick. Scale.
      Quote Originally Posted by Boyz in da Park
      Proletariat, Bourgeoise - Everybody smellin' my potpourri...

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      06-13-2019 12:55 AM #41
      Quote Originally Posted by BlakeV View Post
      I don't think so. Both exist for the very same reason with no "but".

      People overlooks other possibilities like synthetic fuel. I don't think that trillions-large oil companies will let it go without an huge fight.
      https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a1...ero-petroleum/
      Oddly many people mistrust "the trillions-large oil companies". Don't know why? They and ONLY THEY enable modern transportation. If what Audi did was easy and free maybe the oil companies would be worried. The most logical and likely source of synthetic fuel is the oil companies. They just want to continue selling you something through their already existing distribution system. Hydrocarbons have numerous income producing uses other than as fuels.
      Classified forum rules require that you post a price. If you don't know what to ask, they suggest that you search past FS threads.

      So, when your item sells, please don't edit out your price and description when you mark it "SOLD". Rather, edit to show selling price.

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      06-16-2019 05:09 AM #42
      Real Engineering is a great channel.

      Despite being totally impractical and infeasible for passenger cars, I think Hydrogen fuel cells could have a future in short-mid range aircraft and 18 wheelers.



      Quote Originally Posted by AZGolf View Post
      In short, it's not doable. There's dozens of dry, boring reports from companies, agencies, study panels, and universities to explain why hydrogen isn't doable to replace all our transportation needs globally but if you want to watch a video instead, this one is pretty good:



      The guy that makes those videos is something of a futurist and had previously made a video about everything good about hydrogen cars. It was after he started researching it further that he made the follow-up video where he discusses why it has little hope of ever working on a large scale.
      Typical forum guy with busted third-hand cars.
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    19. 06-16-2019 12:15 PM #43
      Sorry, if my choice is a full charged battery or a high-pressure full Hydrogen tank for fire safety - Battery wins.

      Add in that it takes way more energy to make Hydrogen than it gives back and its not a great idea for the eco-system.

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      06-16-2019 08:55 PM #44
      Quote Originally Posted by Unilateral Phase Detractor View Post
      Massive hydrogen explosion? Only one solution: Ban the sun.
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