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    Thread: The Truck Lounge: GM urges patience as Silverado falls to 3rd place

    1. Member Maximum_Download's Avatar
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      06-18-2019 08:44 AM #26
      Quote Originally Posted by Rob View Post
      This all just seems like a bunch of BS.

      GM missed the mark on the latest truck. I mean I like the styling, but the fact that they took a 10 year old interior, complete with 4" screen and put it in their brand new truck is totally inexcusable. And there is no innovation there.

      The 2021 F-150 will use a coil spring rear end (at least some of the models will). This has been confirmed in spy shots (no leaf springs, trailing arms visible in front of the rear axle). So GM will be the only leaf sprung competitor out there. Not a great position to be in when these things have become glorified family haulers.

      GM phoned it in on this latest Silverado. People aren't stupid, they know this and they are buying the superior truck.
      I can't say it any better than Rob has.

      I am a GM truck fan boy. Chevy has been my go to for years, and I still get warm fuzzies when I think about their small block V8, a version of which powers (some might say OVERpowers) my Four Winns sport boat.

      But the current generation Silverado/Sierra are in excusable. The only reason to buy one is that wonderful 6.2 V8, an engine which up till now has been limited to the ugliest and most expensive of their top trim levels.

      Now that they are offering it in the RST for 2020 my criticism softens somewhat, but the innovation is still not there and the interior is still garbage.
      Matt
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      06-18-2019 09:21 AM #27
      Quote Originally Posted by GoFaster View Post
      It is a hugely competitive market; the GM trucks aren't perceived as being new or innovative.

      Ford has aluminum bodies and Ecoboost.

      Ram has the best interiors and styling (my opinion) and ride quality and Hemi and Ecodiesel.

      GM T1XX isn't perceived as being much different from K2XX, and that wasn't perceived as being much different from T900, and that wasn't perceived as being much different from T800.
      I'm not just talking trucks

      Camaro is competent but the weakest selling pony car

      Cadillac is................................................ ..................

      There's no excitement around their crossovers like there is around Jeeps or the new Escape/Exploder

      Even the buzz around the C8 seems subdued. There's just nowhere I'm seeing a clear win for GM right now. Not to say FCA/Ford are firing on all cylinders but they've got some positive things going. GM is just kind of "there" right now

    4. Member PlatinumGLS's Avatar
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      06-18-2019 09:26 AM #28
      Quote Originally Posted by boogetyboogety View Post
      The well-known and easy solution is a balanced drive shaft, if your dealer won't take care of it, take it to a machine shop and done... Look into it...
      I've heard from insiders who say the design of the body mounts attributed to the shake making it through to the cabin. Things like driveshafts, tires, suspension components, wheels, drivetrain alignment, etc...when even slightly out of spec create vibrations at different frequencies that properly designed modern body mounts help dampen. A few mount redesigns later and the shake went away.

    5. Member PlatinumGLS's Avatar
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      06-18-2019 09:35 AM #29
      Quote Originally Posted by GoFaster View Post
      GM T1XX isn't perceived as being much different from K2XX, and that wasn't perceived as being much different from T900, and that wasn't perceived as being much different from T800.
      A few years back, I had a really low mileage T900 (2011 Silverado) with <15,000 miles at the same time a friend had a K2XX (2016 GMC Sierra) with similar mileage and identical drivetrain (5.3L, 6-speed auto, 4x4, same gearing) and same body configuration (extended cab with regular bed). We took turns driving them back to back and they felt identical even though the T900 debuted way back in 2006 as a 2007 model.

    6. Member candy11's Avatar
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      06-18-2019 09:40 AM #30
      If GM’s current design team was German they would have already shot themselves.

    7. 06-18-2019 09:41 AM #31
      Quote Originally Posted by Maximum_Download View Post

      But the current generation Silverado/Sierra are in excusable. The only reason to buy one is that wonderful 6.2 V8, an engine which up till now has been limited to the ugliest and most expensive of their top trim levels.

      Now that they are offering it in the RST for 2020 my criticism softens somewhat, but the innovation is still not there and the interior is still garbage.
      Chevy is offering the 6.2 in the Trail Boss LT for 2020 as well...even though the GMC AT4 already had that option.


      I have been looking a lot recently at the 2019 GMC Elevation package/trim. With the expanded size the Double Cab is sufficient and the 6.5ft bed is great. Comes standard with LED headlights, fogs, and tailights. Most importantly...NO CHROME!!! In the Carolinas the RWD versions are dropping into the mid-high 30’s, with the 5.3V8. Lots of truck for that money.

      https://www.cars.com/vehicledetail/d...ff=share_other
      Last edited by imagine29028; 06-18-2019 at 10:19 AM.

    8. Member Maximum_Download's Avatar
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      06-18-2019 12:42 PM #32
      Quote Originally Posted by PlatinumGLS View Post
      I've heard from insiders who say the design of the body mounts attributed to the shake making it through to the cabin. Things like driveshafts, tires, suspension components, wheels, drivetrain alignment, etc...when even slightly out of spec create vibrations at different frequencies that properly designed modern body mounts help dampen. A few mount redesigns later and the shake went away.
      I had no idea this was an issue. I just did some reading up on it, and as a result, if I go truck next time, GM is coming off my shopping list.

      That is totally inexcusable.
      Matt
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    9. Senior Member Sporin's Avatar
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      06-18-2019 12:53 PM #33
      This really isn't just a new-gen thing, GM hasn't been an innovation leader in the truck spaces for...... ever.

    10. Senior Member bzcat's Avatar
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      06-18-2019 01:20 PM #34
      Quote Originally Posted by GoFaster View Post
      It is a hugely competitive market; the GM trucks aren't perceived as being new or innovative.

      Ford has aluminum bodies and Ecoboost.

      Ram has the best interiors and styling (my opinion) and ride quality and Hemi and Ecodiesel.

      GM T1XX isn't perceived as being much different from K2XX, and that wasn't perceived as being much different from T900, and that wasn't perceived as being much different from T800.
      You describe the symptoms perfectly. The real question is the cause... why would GM under-invest in their most important model and profit generator? It's an interesting look at how the Big 3 diverge on their priorities. GM seems to be taking the US pickup truck market for granted while Ford and FCA knows they are eating PB&J sandwich lunches for the next 6 years if they screw up the next gen full size truck.

    11. Member Maximum_Download's Avatar
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      06-18-2019 01:46 PM #35
      Quote Originally Posted by Sporin View Post
      This really isn't just a new-gen thing, GM hasn't been an innovation leader in the truck spaces for...... ever.
      Not true. The GMT 400s were ground breaking, and still look modern today. Not to mention tough - they are still a common sight here in the rust belt long after the same years Dodges and Fords have rusted to bits.
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    12. 06-18-2019 02:17 PM #36
      Yes, GMT400 (Silverado, 1988) was a revelation compared to the "square bodies" 1973-1987, and those also were a huge change from their predecessors.

      Then they went too restrained. The Ram trucks went to the mini-big-rig styling around 1994, Ford changed substantially in the next couple of generations. The GM trucks looked pretty much the same.

    13. 06-18-2019 02:23 PM #37
      Quote Originally Posted by PoorHouse View Post
      So GM sold trucks with unbalanced driveshafts and aren't warrantying/recalling them?
      Beats me. COP says he has a terrible trembling in his truck and no solution to the problem (which is bizarre to me... Every problem has a potential solution):

      Quote Originally Posted by ChillOutPossum View Post
      Truth. Terrible problem (mine has it) with no solution...I can understand why so many would never buy again.
      So off the top of my head (from experience as a fleet manager in another life), I said:

      Quote Originally Posted by boogetyboogety View Post
      The well-known and easy solution is a balanced drive shaft, if your dealer won't take care of it, take it to a machine shop and done... Look into it...
      Then GS piped up:

      Quote Originally Posted by Gitcha Sum View Post
      You talking about the change in the cupholder rattling? If I get the driveshaft balanced that goes away?
      And I looked it up to make sure I wasn't doing someone with another potential issue a disservice:

      Quote Originally Posted by boogetyboogety View Post
      Just to make sure my off-the-top-of-my-head solution would apply to this issue, I just Googled "Chevy shake trucks solution" and this is the first of many articles that popped up:

      https://www.gm-trucks.com/forums/top...y-shake-fixed/

      So yes, go get it done and your coins won't rattle in your cupholder...
      Now people are suggesting "things like driveshafts, tires, suspension components, wheels, drivetrain alignment, etc... When even slightly out of spec create vibrations at different frequencies that properly designed modern body mounts help dampen" and other potential trouble spots (and this is OEM stuff!). Doesn't matter to me, I'm not in the truck market and haven't bought a new domestic vehicle in decades... And I haven't been a GM fan for longer than that.

    14. Senior Member Sporin's Avatar
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      06-18-2019 03:16 PM #38
      Quote Originally Posted by Maximum_Download View Post
      Not true. The GMT 400s were ground breaking, and still look modern today. Not to mention tough - they are still a common sight here in the rust belt long after the same years Dodges and Fords have rusted to bits.
      Ok, I rescind my "for...... ever." and replace with "for...... at least thirty years"

      Better?

      Here's the thing, I LIKE GM pickups. I think they are generally solid, reliable, strong, easily fixable cargo movers. I'd personally trust a used GM Pickup over most used Fords or almost any used Dodge/RAM.

      I just don't see any reason why you'd buy a brand new one when you can get one that's 2, 5, 10, 15 years old and, essentially, miss out on nothing except luxury advances.

      I'd happily buy a mint condition GMT-400, put an Apple CarPlay deck in it, and call it a day.


      https://i.pinimg.com/originals/cc/85...f653618ffe.jpg

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      06-18-2019 03:30 PM #39
      GM got LAZY! Plain and simple. Not only did they miss the mark, they missed the whole target.
      The goofy ass GMC multi tool like tailgate is a joke. Pay Honda to use the dual function tailgate design that's on the Ridgeline.
      The new trucks, Chevy mostly looks like crap and isn't an improvement over the truck it's replacing.
      Some people should be fired, and not hide behind "we are only interested in profit per vehicle" BS.

      I'll most likely be in the market for a truck in 2021 or 2022, hopefully GM can get their head out of their ass and offer a better product at that time.

    16. Member 88c900t's Avatar
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      06-18-2019 03:31 PM #40
      Quote Originally Posted by PlatinumGLS View Post
      A few years back, I had a really low mileage T900 (2011 Silverado) with <15,000 miles at the same time a friend had a K2XX (2016 GMC Sierra) with similar mileage and identical drivetrain (5.3L, 6-speed auto, 4x4, same gearing) and same body configuration (extended cab with regular bed). We took turns driving them back to back and they felt identical even though the T900 debuted way back in 2006 as a 2007 model.
      Interesting. I honestly hold the 900s in very high regard and I think they looked quite modern and competitive at the time. Never liked the GM trucks that came afterward. I'd now go Ford-aluminum body means higher payload (and rust resistance), and the Ecoboost motors have the perfect powerband for truck-tasks.


      My brother has a 15 or 16 GMC 2500 duramax, I honestly didn't like driving it whatsoever, especially compared to the old 2007.5 Duramax with 250K miles. The throttle programing is atrocious-you get wheelhop if you give it 5% too much throttle, and the transmission programming isn't much better-both of these are things that GM is notorious for. It even had a rough 4-5 shift despite having under 30K miles. And it's too damn wide and too damn tall.



      Quote Originally Posted by GoFaster View Post
      Yes, GMT400 (Silverado, 1988) was a revelation compared to the "square bodies" 1973-1987, and those also were a huge change from their predecessors.

      Then they went too restrained. The Ram trucks went to the mini-big-rig styling around 1994, Ford changed substantially in the next couple of generations. The GM trucks looked pretty much the same.
      The GMT400s actually went a long ways to making pick ups a livable daily driver, the motorweek review was glowing with praise. Although conservative, the 800s were also immensely successful, had excellent powertrains and were much more reliable and durable than the 1997+ F150s, which were kinda turds.
      Last edited by 88c900t; 06-18-2019 at 03:34 PM.
      I gave up dailing old and rare cars and became a normie.
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      88c900t wins again, you really ****ing crush it at listing a ton of cheap options
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      You'll always get a pass due to your history of owning classy and sophisticated automobiles

    17. Moderator Oliver@triplezoom's Avatar
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      06-18-2019 03:40 PM #41
      Quote Originally Posted by Sporin View Post
      Literally my favorite GMT400. The crew cab/short bed is quite rare too. Can't remember the last time I saw one.

    18. Member PlatinumGLS's Avatar
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      06-18-2019 03:57 PM #42
      Quote Originally Posted by CruznMalibu View Post
      Some people should be fired, and not hide behind "we are only interested in profit per vehicle" BS.
      I cannot believe GM says this over and over again. As a consumer, why would I want to buy a vehicle from a manufacturer who flat out says they are trying to maximize profits rather than giving buyers the best vehicle or best value possible? They need some Bob Lutz...

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      06-18-2019 08:53 PM #43
      Quote Originally Posted by boogetyboogety View Post
      And I looked it up to make sure I wasn't doing someone with another potential issue a disservice:
      Hey I appreciate the info. Runout & balance aren't the same, so I'll make some calls and see who has driveshaft experience and see what sense I can make of mine. Shoot I figured mine had a shimmy because I lifted it and put 35" tires on...

    20. Member Maximum_Download's Avatar
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      06-19-2019 12:32 AM #44
      Quote Originally Posted by PlatinumGLS View Post
      I cannot believe GM says this over and over again. As a consumer, why would I want to buy a vehicle from a manufacturer who flat out says they are trying to maximize profits rather than giving buyers the best vehicle or best value possible? They need some Bob Lutz...
      Which brings me to a point I keep making in recent GM threads:

      Why are they suddenly misfiring on EVERY SINGLE VEHICLE? I mean...Cadillac is well on its way to squandering any and all goodwill they built up over the last 15 years. The Full size pick ups are a mess. The Cadillac XT4 feels like garbage compared to a base VW Golf.

      I don't want to point the finger at Mary Barra, because I truly want her to succeed, but I can't help but notice the financial performance seems to have been prioritized over vehicle vision and quality. And I am sorry, but I have no sympathy for that.

      The cars GM are putting out right now are all not 100% vehicles - every single one has a major flaw, or a few major flaws in execution.

      And I want to know why.
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    21. Senior Member bzcat's Avatar
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      06-19-2019 12:41 PM #45
      Quote Originally Posted by Maximum_Download View Post
      Which brings me to a point I keep making in recent GM threads:

      Why are they suddenly misfiring on EVERY SINGLE VEHICLE? I mean...Cadillac is well on its way to squandering any and all goodwill they built up over the last 15 years. The Full size pick ups are a mess. The Cadillac XT4 feels like garbage compared to a base VW Golf.

      I don't want to point the finger at Mary Barra, because I truly want her to succeed, but I can't help but notice the financial performance seems to have been prioritized over vehicle vision and quality. And I am sorry, but I have no sympathy for that.

      The cars GM are putting out right now are all not 100% vehicles - every single one has a major flaw, or a few major flaws in execution.

      And I want to know why.
      That's exactly why. They are prioritizing shareholder return and stock valuation over building great vehicles. It's why things are half bakes and half ass'd.

      Everyone does it to a degree but they all seem to have a red line that they won't cross - i.e. Ford F-150 always gets full investment, BMW won't skim on M cars, FCA is all in on Jeep and Ram etc. But GM doesn't seem to hold anything sacred - everything is subject to cost engineering. It would be interesting to see the new Corvette now that we know what happened to the Cadillac V cars.

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      06-19-2019 12:48 PM #46
      Quote Originally Posted by Maximum_Download View Post
      I don't want to point the finger at Mary Barra, because I truly want her to succeed, but I can't help but notice the financial performance seems to have been prioritized over vehicle vision and quality. And I am sorry, but I have no sympathy for that.
      That's what caused Toyota problems back 15-20 years ago (though part of it was growth without adjusting Q&A accordingly).
      It can happen to any company.
      You build a customer base and brand image because you focus on making quality products, then at some point you start focusing on the profits and completely forget what got you there to begin with.

    23. Member Jimmy Russells's Avatar
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      06-19-2019 01:01 PM #47
      Quote Originally Posted by Maximum_Download View Post
      I had no idea this was an issue. I just did some reading up on it, and as a result, if I go truck next time, GM is coming off my shopping list.

      That is totally inexcusable.

      Well I understand how they could screw it up. It's not like body mounts have been a thing for about 100 years, so it's understandable.

    24. Member PlatinumGLS's Avatar
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      06-19-2019 01:04 PM #48
      Speaking of maximizing profits...GM seeks to avoid Takata recalls for fourth straight year

      Quote Originally Posted by Detroit News
      Detroit – General Motors is trying to avoid recalling potentially deadly Takata air bag inflators in thousands of full-size pickup trucks and SUVs for the fourth straight year, leaving owners to wonder if vehicles are safe to drive.

      The automaker petitioned the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration to exempt it from recalls that were required under a 2015 agreement between Takata and the government.

      ...

      For GM, the stakes are high. If NHTSA requires it to do all the recalls, the company will have to repair more than 6 million trucks and SUVs at a cost of $1.2 billion, more than half the profit reported by the company in its most recent quarter.

      GM’s petition, posted Wednesday by the government, says the inflators are unique to GM and are safe, with no explosions even though nearly 67,000 air bags have deployed in the field.

      But Takata declared the GM front passenger inflators defective under a 2015 agreement with the government. GM’s efforts to avoid the recalls raise questions about whether the inflators are safe and why NHTSA has taken more than three years to rule on GM’s petitions. The first one was filed in May of 2016.

      ...

      Jason Levine, executive director of the Center for Auto Safety, a nonprofit consumer group, said NHTSA appears to be paralyzed in the GM case. Information provided by GM thus far isn’t sufficient for NHTSA to approve the petition, said Levine, who questions the validity of some tests done for GM. He questioned the need for a delay by NHTSA in making a decision. “There’s millions of these things on the road. It is not right. It’s bad policy, bad practice,” Levine said. “It only engenders concern and fear potentially unnecessarily. NHTSA needs to do its job.”

      Under NHTSA’s agreement with Takata, GM should be recalling the 2010-2014 Chevrolet Silverado and GMC Sierra heavy duty pickups this year, as well as 2010-2013 light duty Silverados and Sierras. Also covered are the 2010-2014 Chevrolet Tahoe and Suburban SUVs, the 2010-2014 Cadillac Escalade SUV, and the 2010-2014 GMC Yukon SUV.

      All of the recalls are being phased in by age of vehicles and areas of the country where they are located. Because GM filed its petition to avoid the recalls, owners will not be notified that their vehicles have the potentially dangerous inflators, according to NHTSA.

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      06-19-2019 01:50 PM #49
      Quote Originally Posted by CTK View Post
      How did GM become the weakest of the D3?
      Define "weakest".

      GM is in the best market position in China, out of all the D3. That's what matters the most.

      GM cut their losses in EU, while Ford continues to bleed money there.

      FCA and Ford (on the DL) are looking to marry themselves off to a European suitor, to pay for autonomous driving and electrification, and improve EU/China presence.
      GM doesn't need to do any of that

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      06-19-2019 01:57 PM #50
      Quote Originally Posted by CTK View Post
      I'm not just talking trucks

      Camaro is competent but the weakest selling pony car

      Cadillac is................................................ ..................

      There's no excitement around their crossovers like there is around Jeeps or the new Escape/Exploder

      Even the buzz around the C8 seems subdued. There's just nowhere I'm seeing a clear win for GM right now. Not to say FCA/Ford are firing on all cylinders but they've got some positive things going. GM is just kind of "there" right now
      I hate to be the lone voice in support of GM here, as I have never owned a GM product, but I think your post is merely your own perception and not facts.

      The Corvette buzz is so real! We've sustained a thread on this forum, from about 4 years ago, when the first mules were spied. Check back here in a few weeks when the production car debuts.

      Cadillac is still outselling Lincoln and Chrysler (if we must still recognize Chrysler as the flagship brand of Dodge/Jeep/Ram/Chrysler). Cadillac will still sell you a domestic luxury sedan with RWD and a V8 engine. That's worth appreciating.

      I'm not sure how to measure excitement around CUVs, but again if sales matter, GM is doing really well in that category too.

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