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    Thread: BEVs are not going to hit critical mass.... change my mind

    1. Member
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      06-25-2019 12:28 PM #201
      Quote Originally Posted by Sporin View Post
      I like EV’s. I plan to own one at some point.

      But have you guys ever read the comments on any EV article on Facebook? The responses to push ads and posts from power companies and manufacturers touting theses products?

      The Comments are illustrative of how incredibly uneducated the general populace is about these cars.

      How many EV’s do we have a TCL? Here, the most ideal audience. Reasonably affluent, tech savvy, automotive educated people that own homes and garages. What ae there... six? 10?

      What does that percentage work out to?

      We can dicker semantics here on TCL all we want, but we are a drop in the bucket to the national conversation.

      I personally don’t expect EV‘s to be a genuinely big thing in my lifetime unless we actually run out of petroleum. And as long as this country spends $700B / year on “defense “ then “we” aren’t going to run out of petroleum any time soon.
      When people throw around things like $700B defense budgets, you need to keep in mind much of that is salaries/benefits for the ranks, and then there is research and procurement. The military isn't tied to petroleum in any particular fashion - they will happily take whatever allows them to maintain their supply lines easier. Right now batteries are a PITA for the military. Outside of that, we are now the largest petro producer in the world, and fracking has provided a transformation in the energy world. We aren't back to the 1980s where we needed to keep Saudi oil flowing in the same way anymore. Of course we want a stable middle-east, and open sea lanes, but they aren't as important as they once were (and much of that traffic will turn into LNG tankers coming to US processing plants). Plus, renewables mean independence from those oil sources.

      EVs are still a specialty thing that just very recently pushed over into mainstream. That is why there is so much discussion. I am very interested in an EV and can say that it's possible my next car (maybe getting one this fall) I will run for 5 years and it may be the last ICE DD i have. I almost bought a new construction house last fall and i made sure to spec the power line for an EV for the garage - i do believe its the future. As an enthusiast ill always like ICE cars and maybe that means my toy is a cool ICE, but DD? Id happily swap for an e-car particularly when most normal cars have anemic powertrains.

      I look at EVs as digital watches and ICE as fine Swiss movement. The tech gets better, the batteries get cheaper. With serious R&D now in the e-world, better stuff will be coming. With capacitor/battery you can in theory build batteries that can do it all. You can charge at night, or at work, and never stop for "gas." Plus, it will allow RWD to make a comeback for the enthusiast - no need for a FWD setup with electric motors and batteries - or even if they are fwd, they will not have the weight imbalance of an engine and tranny over the front wheels.

      Also keep in mind e-cars are just part of the e-world transformation. Maybe in 10 years we will see lots of solar panels, lots of home batteries, lots of change in energy systems. It is all very exciting, and i love the idea of anything that adds to our energy independence.

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    3. Member Chris_V's Avatar
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      06-25-2019 12:40 PM #202
      Just going to drop this here since it may have been missed in TurboMinivan’s thread:

      https://youtu.be/zBT5aXoJghY


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    4. Senior Member Sporin's Avatar
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      06-25-2019 12:41 PM #203
      Quote Originally Posted by Lawrider View Post
      When people throw around things like $700B defense budgets, you need to keep in mind much of that is salaries/benefits for the ranks, and then there is research and procurement. The military isn't tied to petroleum in any particular fashion - they will happily take whatever allows them to maintain their supply lines easier. Right now batteries are a PITA for the military. Outside of that, we are now the largest petro producer in the world, and fracking has provided a transformation in the energy world. We aren't back to the 1980s where we needed to keep Saudi oil flowing in the same way anymore. Of course we want a stable middle-east, and open sea lanes, but they aren't as important as they once were (and much of that traffic will turn into LNG tankers coming to US processing plants). Plus, renewables mean independence from those oil sources. .
      That's fine, I understand that I was only trying to illustrate that we are a massive superpower who spends trillions on a military industrial complex that ALWAYS has something to say when an oil-producing country is involved. Therefore "we" won't run out of oil anytime soon. The USA expends a MASSIVE amount of financial resources to try and keep all of that as stable and within our "control" as possible. Between that, and our now huge home-grown production, even if we "run out of oil" we'll for sure be about the last ones to feel the worst effects.
      Last edited by Sporin; 06-25-2019 at 12:49 PM.

    5. Member Mike!'s Avatar
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      06-25-2019 12:46 PM #204
      Quote Originally Posted by CTK View Post
      Could def see Walmart, Target etc jumping on this.
      Walmart's jumped into bed with VW's ElectrifyAmerica. I think it's a win/win for them as their parking lots are already massive, so it's no big deal to lend some space to EV charging, and they'll probably get some store traffic out of it.

      https://www.electrifyamerica.com/locate-charger

      Most of their chargers in the south, TX, southwest seem to be Walmart/Sam's Club off interstates.

    6. Geriatric Member Air and water do mix's Avatar
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      06-25-2019 12:56 PM #205
      Quote Originally Posted by Mike! View Post
      Walmart's jumped into bed with VW's ElectrifyAmerica. I think it's a win/win for them as their parking lots are already massive, so it's no big deal to lend some space to EV charging, and they'll probably get some store traffic out of it.

      https://www.electrifyamerica.com/locate-charger

      Most of their chargers in the south, TX, southwest seem to be Walmart/Sam's Club off interstates.
      I think places like McDonald's, Applebees, O'Charley's, Red Lobster and other ubiquitous restaurant chains would be well served to offer that when it makes sense to do so. Perhaps even charging for free if you eat there.

      No, this is definitely not an endorsement of those restaurants.
      Quote Originally Posted by Boyz in da Park
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    7. Senior Member Sporin's Avatar
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      06-25-2019 12:56 PM #206
      Quote Originally Posted by Mike! View Post
      Walmart's jumped into bed with VW's ElectrifyAmerica. I think it's a win/win for them as their parking lots are already massive, so it's no big deal to lend some space to EV charging, and they'll probably get some store traffic out of it.

      https://www.electrifyamerica.com/locate-charger

      Most of their chargers in the south, TX, southwest seem to be Walmart/Sam's Club off interstates.
      That is a very smart idea for Walmart.

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      06-25-2019 01:10 PM #207
      Quote Originally Posted by Air and water do mix View Post
      I think places like McDonald's, Applebees, O'Charley's, Red Lobster and other ubiquitous restaurant chains would be well served to offer that when it makes sense to do so. Perhaps even charging for free if you eat there.

      No, this is definitely not an endorsement of those restaurants.


      Pretty sure this thread is basically about how those two markets as a Venn diagram is two non overlapping circles at this point



      I'm torn on whether they should bother putting them in or not. I think making more charging stations visible would help the general public see that infrastructure exists and that you have options to charge. Even if the 15 minutes the avg person probably spends at MacDonalds makes charging pointless (unless fast charging) it would at least be very visible to a lot of eyes. The other side of me says prove you don't need them all over like this, basically like what the guy in the video is saying home charging and truck stop type stations is all most people actually need. Maybe a mcdonalds off a highway sure, but most located on a business district in the suburbs probably not.

    9. Geriatric Member spockcat's Avatar
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      06-25-2019 01:12 PM #208
      Quote Originally Posted by Mike! View Post
      Walmart's jumped into bed with VW's ElectrifyAmerica. I think it's a win/win for them as their parking lots are already massive, so it's no big deal to lend some space to EV charging, and they'll probably get some store traffic out of it.

      https://www.electrifyamerica.com/locate-charger

      Most of their chargers in the south, TX, southwest seem to be Walmart/Sam's Club off interstates.
      Seems the Electrify America locations around Florida put in 3 CCS and 1 CCS-CHAdeMO. And they don't seem to be as prevalent as Tesla Superchargers or destination chargers either. The closest Electrify America charger to me is 37 miles away. I'd drive past 5 Tesla Supercharger locations to get to it. And there are probably 20 Walmarts and 5 Sam's Club locations within 37 miles of me that don't have Electrify America chargers. They have a long way to go if you ask me.


    10. Member Mike!'s Avatar
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      06-25-2019 01:55 PM #209
      Quote Originally Posted by spockcat View Post
      Seems the Electrify America locations around Florida put in 3 CCS and 1 CCS-CHAdeMO. And they don't seem to be as prevalent as Tesla Superchargers or destination chargers either. The closest Electrify America charger to me is 37 miles away. I'd drive past 5 Tesla Supercharger locations to get to it. And there are probably 20 Walmarts and 5 Sam's Club locations within 37 miles of me that don't have Electrify America chargers. They have a long way to go if you ask me.
      They do have a long way to go, but of course they do. The network was new last year, and they're coming to the end of their "Cycle 1" of funding with 316 charging locations. Now begins "Cycle 2" and another $300M of Dieselgate dollars flowing into it.

      TONS of reading here on their outline plans. Big focus on urban metro charging too and not just interstate.
      https://www.electrifyamerica.com/our-plan

      Thankfully with EA and Chargepoint entering a "roaming" agreement, it's going to start to be easier to just go to the most convenient charger and not download a new app or care about what network it's on.
      https://techcrunch.com/2019/06/11/ch...-less-painful/

    11. 06-25-2019 02:16 PM #210
      Quote Originally Posted by adrew View Post
      Again, I'm ready for a fun, scrappy EV. But I'm not really interested in $30-$40k heavy, luxury-oriented car with the associated compromises.
      Allow me to show you a fun, scrappy EV, with plenty of 2016's available from $8-$12k....so basically free! These still have another year of full factory warranty, and another 5 years on the battery. Also, insurance is super cheap. Feel free to take a look at this THREAD about my recent purchase.

      Last edited by daSchtick; 06-25-2019 at 02:19 PM.
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    12. Geriatric Member Air and water do mix's Avatar
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      06-25-2019 02:26 PM #211
      Quote Originally Posted by chris86vw View Post
      Pretty sure this thread is basically about how those two markets as a Venn diagram is two non overlapping circles at this point



      Quote Originally Posted by chris86vw View Post
      I'm torn on whether they should bother putting them in or not. I think making more charging stations visible would help the general public see that infrastructure exists and that you have options to charge. Even if the 15 minutes the avg person probably spends at MacDonalds makes charging pointless (unless fast charging) it would at least be very visible to a lot of eyes. The other side of me says prove you don't need them all over like this, basically like what the guy in the video is saying home charging and truck stop type stations is all most people actually need. Maybe a mcdonalds off a highway sure, but most located on a business district in the suburbs probably not.
      Understood, but I do think that restaurants, strip malls, retail shops and even tourist traps will be great places for charging alongside the hotels that have already sprung up.


      Quote Originally Posted by daSchtick View Post
      Allow me to show you a fun, scrappy EV, with plenty of 2016's available from $8-$12k....so basically free! These still have another year of full factory warranty, and another 5 years on the battery. Also, insurance is super cheap. Feel free to take a look at this THREAD about my recent purchase.

      *Fiat 500E pic
      8-12k? Really? Man, if those things were around here I'd certainly continue to talk about getting an electric, but might eventually even do it!
      Quote Originally Posted by Boyz in da Park
      Proletariat, Bourgeoise - Everybody smellin' my potpourri...

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      06-25-2019 02:43 PM #212
      Quote Originally Posted by fireside View Post
      And the third and most important issue to solve - designing a battery that can take that large of a charge current quickly that is safe and reliable. People seem to forget how potent modern day battery tech is. Batteries appear benign to the naked eye but are extremely energy dense and can become unstable. See: even modern smartphones or e-cigarettes when batteries get overcharged, overheated or pierced. Now multiply that by about a jillion.
      The energy stored in the EV battery is equivalent to that of about 2-3 gallons of gasoline, so there is a risk that exists in place of the risk of a fuel tank with gasoline in it.


    14. Geriatric Member Air and water do mix's Avatar
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      06-25-2019 02:48 PM #213
      Quote Originally Posted by tjl View Post
      The energy stored in the EV battery is equivalent to that of about 2-3 gallons of gasoline, so there is a risk that exists in place of the risk of a fuel tank with gasoline in it.

      *Exploding Pinto scene*
      Nice Top Secret reference.
      Quote Originally Posted by Boyz in da Park
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    15. Senior Member AZGolf's Avatar
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      06-25-2019 03:17 PM #214
      Quote Originally Posted by tjl View Post
      The energy stored in the EV battery is equivalent to that of about 2-3 gallons of gasoline, so there is a risk that exists in place of the risk of a fuel tank with gasoline in it.

      Gasoline can erupt into a massive fire within an instant during a bad crash with an ignition source available. We've seen it in youtube videos and ugly liveleak videos where it's clear that anybody in the vehicles simply went up in flames because the car was burning before the vehicles even came to rest.

      The kind of Li-Ion batteries they put in cars don't go up like that. They may get going within a few minutes of a crash, but with exception of massive crashes like that 100+ mph crash in Florida earlier this year, it's basically impossible to get an automotive-grade battery pack to go up in flames in less time than it takes for first responders to get to the scene with fire suppression and extrication tools. I'm not saying it doesn't happen ever, but if you graph it out, gasoline generally ignites within 0 to 5 seconds of a crash and automotive EVs would be somewhere in the 3 minute to 48-hour range, as I know of at least two stories of EVs getting in wrecks and never catching fire at all until a day or two later when they went up in flames in the wrecking yard. That is a LONG time to wait for the battery to catch fire, and again, plenty of time to get out of the vehicle and to safety.

    16. 06-25-2019 03:38 PM #215
      Quote Originally Posted by Air and water do mix View Post
      8-12k? Really? Man, if those things were around here I'd certainly continue to talk about getting an electric, but might eventually even do it!
      Yup, all day long.....LINK

      Unfortunately, most are available in California, but there are a few dealers scattered elsewhere that like to pick them up at auction, like mine from Chicago.
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    17. Geriatric Member Air and water do mix's Avatar
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      06-25-2019 03:54 PM #216
      Quote Originally Posted by AZGolf View Post
      Gasoline can erupt into a massive fire within an instant during a bad crash with an ignition source available. We've seen it in youtube videos and ugly liveleak videos where it's clear that anybody in the vehicles simply went up in flames because the car was burning before the vehicles even came to rest.

      The kind of Li-Ion batteries they put in cars don't go up like that. They may get going within a few minutes of a crash, but with exception of massive crashes like that 100+ mph crash in Florida earlier this year, it's basically impossible to get an automotive-grade battery pack to go up in flames in less time than it takes for first responders to get to the scene with fire suppression and extrication tools. I'm not saying it doesn't happen ever, but if you graph it out, gasoline generally ignites within 0 to 5 seconds of a crash and automotive EVs would be somewhere in the 3 minute to 48-hour range, as I know of at least two stories of EVs getting in wrecks and never catching fire at all until a day or two later when they went up in flames in the wrecking yard. That is a LONG time to wait for the battery to catch fire, and again, plenty of time to get out of the vehicle and to safety.
      Exactly. I don't know about you, but as for me I prefer a long escape time.


      Quote Originally Posted by daSchtick View Post
      Yup, all day long.....LINK

      Unfortunately, most are available in California, but there are a few dealers scattered elsewhere that like to pick them up at auction, like mine from Chicago.
      Thanks!

      I see a few Teslas, plenty of Volts, Leafs and a few others, but I think I've only seen one 500. At least that's the only one I noticed.
      Quote Originally Posted by Boyz in da Park
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    18. Senior Member Sporin's Avatar
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      06-25-2019 03:58 PM #217
      Assuming you have plenty of time to escape the car, you might be better off having your Tesla burn itself up rather than dealing with a 3-month repair for a fender bender.

    19. Senior Member AZGolf's Avatar
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      06-25-2019 04:12 PM #218
      Quote Originally Posted by Sporin View Post
      Assuming you have plenty of time to escape the car, you might be better off having your Tesla burn itself up rather than dealing with a 3-month repair for a fender bender.
      That sounds like a win-win to me.

    20. Member BlakeV's Avatar
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      06-25-2019 07:46 PM #219
      Quote Originally Posted by CTK View Post



      Am I the only one a little skeptical of this all?
      I plead guilty. I am more than skeptical, I don't believe it to happen in my lifetime. didn't believe in diesel cars, I don't believe in these electrical toys for gadget lovers. And of course Tesla is toasted.

      Debugging EVs seems more complicated than curing cancer. Big oil companies won't let it go without offering more green synthetical alternatives. The kind to support also airplanes and ships... EVs? just a pipe dream in the foreseeable future. Not happening.

      I can't overcome the huge waste of government money ... strike that money borrowed and to be paid by our descendants. Crazy and stupid.

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      06-25-2019 09:44 PM #220
      Quote Originally Posted by BlakeV View Post
      I plead guilty. I am more than skeptical, I don't believe it to happen in my lifetime. didn't believe in diesel cars, I don't believe in these electrical toys for gadget lovers. And of course Tesla is toasted.

      Debugging EVs seems more complicated than curing cancer. Big oil companies won't let it go without offering more green synthetical alternatives. The kind to support also airplanes and ships... EVs? just a pipe dream in the foreseeable future. Not happening.

      I can't overcome the huge waste of government money ... strike that money borrowed and to be paid by our descendants. Crazy and stupid.
      Slow Car Fast

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      06-25-2019 09:49 PM #221
      Quote Originally Posted by CTK View Post
      I wouldn't want a bunch of weirdos at my house

      This sounds like a huge opportunity for parking lot owners. Kind of a no brainer. They could partner with utilities to do LED retrofits for the lighting and then install the chargers. Would prob be a net positive for the utilities, even if they shared some revenue with the landlords. Could def see Walmart, Target etc jumping on this.
      Uh, this has literally been Chargepoint's business model for decades. They sell, service, monitor and do paperwork for public use chargers.

      Silicon Valley techbros are stealing ideas from each other now, love it.
      Quote Originally Posted by zukiphile View Post
      There is an area of a normal brain that lets the owner know the object works and needs to be left alone. Not all of us have it. It is like being colorblind.

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      06-25-2019 10:02 PM #222
      Quote Originally Posted by chris86vw View Post
      I'm torn on whether they should bother putting them in or not. I think making more charging stations visible would help the general public see that infrastructure exists and that you have options to charge. Even if the 15 minutes the avg person probably spends at MacDonalds makes charging pointless (unless fast charging) it would at least be very visible to a lot of eyes. The other side of me says prove you don't need them all over like this, basically like what the guy in the video is saying home charging and truck stop type stations is all most people actually need. Maybe a mcdonalds off a highway sure, but most located on a business district in the suburbs probably not.
      Ubiquitous L2 charging can almost eliminate the need for DCFC except along interstate corridors.

      Fifteen minutes on a 6.6kW is another 6-8 miles of travel. Which is a pittance for a road trip, but when viewed from the standpoint of someone's daily travels can be a quarter of that person's mileage needs.

      If you make chargers in that size range readily accessible at all sorts of locations, then the opportunity charging adds up. Half hour in the grocery store after work gets you plenty of miles to get home, fifteen minutes at lunch to replenish the morning's commute mileage, taking a few seconds to plug in when you park while running errands...

      Hell, they could even revitalize mall culture, since charging while walking from store to store adds convenience AND more continuous charging time.

      Add in that you can have higher power chargers more readily available in a commercial environment, and a 10 or 12kW charger could be accessible to the lunching public for their simultaneous recharges of eater and EV.

      [Edit] this would also address apartment dwellers and street parkers; if places of employment and shopping have available chargers, it's more feasible for these oft-worried about demographics. And at a comparatively dirt cheap price relative to installing DCFC infrastructure
      Last edited by turbinepowered; 06-25-2019 at 10:06 PM.
      Quote Originally Posted by zukiphile View Post
      There is an area of a normal brain that lets the owner know the object works and needs to be left alone. Not all of us have it. It is like being colorblind.

    24. Planters (fasciitis) peanuts. Dang dogg Sold Over Sticker's Avatar
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      06-25-2019 11:55 PM #223
      Quote Originally Posted by BlakeV View Post
      I plead guilty. I am more than skeptical, I don't believe it to happen in my lifetime. didn't believe in diesel cars, I don't believe in these electrical toys for gadget lovers. And of course Tesla is toasted.*

      Debugging EVs seems more complicated than curing cancer.* Big oil companies won't let it go without offering more green synthetical alternatives.* The kind to support also airplanes and ships... EVs? just a pipe dream in the foreseeable future.* Not happening.

      I can't overcome the huge waste of government money ... strike that money borrowed and to be paid by our descendants. Crazy and stupid.
      * Citation needed.
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    25. 06-26-2019 01:34 AM #224
      Quote Originally Posted by chris86vw View Post
      I'm torn on whether they should bother putting them in or not. I think making more (Level2) charging stations visible would help the general public see that infrastructure exists and that you have options to charge. Even if the 15 minutes the avg person probably spends at MacDonalds makes charging pointless (unless fast charging) it would at least be very visible to a lot of eyes.
      While I agree with the guy in the video that L2 chargers do not need to be installed at every business in town, they sure are a fantastic way to (a) raise EV awareness, (b) show non-EV owners that EVs can be practical, and (c) attract business from EV owners.

      Quote Originally Posted by turbinepowered View Post
      If you make chargers in that size range readily accessible at all sorts of locations, then the opportunity charging adds up. Half hour in the grocery store after work gets you plenty of miles to get home, fifteen minutes at lunch to replenish the morning's commute mileage, taking a few seconds to plug in when you park while running errands...

      Hell, they could even revitalize mall culture, since charging while walking from store to store adds convenience AND more continuous charging time.
      I am not at all shy about this fact: the presence of L2 chargers is often enough to sway my decision when choosing a destination such as lunch/dinner. Just today, for example, I was very low on charge while running errands. I had to stop by the office and planned to plug in there, but my workplace charger was ICEd. My next planned stop was for lunch, so I chose a BBQ joint about 5 miles away which was near a new hotel with a bank of 40amp charging stations. I was plugged in at the hotel for almost exactly 60 minutes, but that added more than enough juice to run my other two errands and get back home with capacity to spare.

      And as for malls, the one closest to me has a bank of 4 L2 EVSEs and also a bank of 4 Tesla chargers, all free. It has become one of my favorite charging locations... not just because of the mall itself, but also all the businesses which are located on the mall property. There are a dozen restaurants which I like to frequent, and even a Trader Joe's grocery store. I can leave my home with only a partial charge, drive to the mall, plug in, spend 90 minutes eating/shopping/etc, unplug, and when I return home I have more charge than when I left. How you could you not like going there?

      Starting in late 2017, Salt Lake City began installing public L2 charging stations all around downtown. There are now 38 of them around town, plus 16 more at the airport. They are free to park at and free to use; the idea is to give the city a green image and attract EV drivers to come downtown (and shop/dine/etc). I haven't gone up there to use any of them yet, but I think I will in the near future. Why not?
      Dempsey Bowling
      Sales Consultant at Doug Smith Dodge/Chrysler/Jeep/Ram/Subaru/Kia/used
      My fleet: 91 Miata (5.0L swap project), 98 Wrangler Sport, 01 Suburban 2500 8.1L, 80 Grand Prix LJ 454, 86 GLHS #75, 13 Leaf SV

    26. Senior Member
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      06-26-2019 06:18 AM #225
      Quote Originally Posted by turbinepowered View Post
      Ubiquitous L2 charging can almost eliminate the need for DCFC except along interstate corridors.

      Fifteen minutes on a 6.6kW is another 6-8 miles of travel. Which is a pittance for a road trip, but when viewed from the standpoint of someone's daily travels can be a quarter of that person's mileage needs.

      If you make chargers in that size range readily accessible at all sorts of locations, then the opportunity charging adds up. Half hour in the grocery store after work gets you plenty of miles to get home, fifteen minutes at lunch to replenish the morning's commute mileage, taking a few seconds to plug in when you park while running errands...

      Hell, they could even revitalize mall culture, since charging while walking from store to store adds convenience AND more continuous charging time.

      Add in that you can have higher power chargers more readily available in a commercial environment, and a 10 or 12kW charger could be accessible to the lunching public for their simultaneous recharges of eater and EV.

      [Edit] this would also address apartment dwellers and street parkers; if places of employment and shopping have available chargers, it's more feasible for these oft-worried about demographics. And at a comparatively dirt cheap price relative to installing DCFC infrastructure
      But the point is outside of a 20mile range PHEV, most people with an BEV simply don't need that.


      The fear is you need it, the reality is you don't. Why are people going to pay 50 cents a kwh to get 10 more miles at lunch when they have 60 miles left and only need 20 to finish their errands and can charge at home for 12. Especially when the faster charging isn't necessarily better for the packs.


      Which was sort of my point on being torn. Getting exposure with the extra charges might be good now for people who think you need to charge a BEV like this, but the reality is you don't need ( or want) to charge like this and reinforcing people's fears is. It necessarily the way to promote the move to BEVs.


      Outside the people who might not have home charging available these charges would just end up never being used

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