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    Thread: Cammisa wadded up a Shelby GT350 while drifting

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    1. Member
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      07-11-2019 08:25 AM #1
      Today I learned that BMW has a maneuverability test where each car is loaded to maximum front-axle weight with its highest friction tires and you have to be able to turn the wheel ~600 degrees per second. Kudos to Cammisa for turning an accident into an interesting look into electronic power steering.

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    2. Member 2 doors's Avatar
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      07-11-2019 08:36 AM #2
      Quote Originally Posted by cammisa
      Whether it’s a four-cylinder on skinny all-season tires or a monster Shelby, all Mustangs use the same steering rack—and its EPAS motor is visibly small. Ironically, this may be one of the reasons for the GT350’s brilliant steering feel. One of the primary drawbacks of EPAS is that the motor acts like a damper for road feel. Every time the front wheels change direction even the slightest amount, the motor has to spin up and then slow back down. The more powerful the motor, the bigger and heavier its rotating parts, and the more it dampens the forces coming back to your hands.
      Ah Jason, so close to using the words properly. Dampers damp, wet sponges dampen.

    3. Member Crispyfritter's Avatar
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      07-11-2019 09:37 AM #3
      Is he okay? I appreciated his Head2Head stuff with Johnny Lieberman on Motortrend.com.

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      07-11-2019 11:09 AM #4
      Quote Originally Posted by Crispyfritter View Post
      Is he okay? I appreciated his Head2Head stuff with Johnny Lieberman on Motortrend.com.

      Chris
      It seems so. At the very least he's well enough to write.

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      07-11-2019 06:04 PM #5
      Quote Originally Posted by Crispyfritter View Post
      Is he okay? I appreciated his Head2Head stuff with Johnny Lieberman on Motortrend.com.

      Chris

      Oh yeah, no one got hurt*— but thanks for your guys' concern. The whole thing happened in Oct 2015*(OMG 4 years ago already?!) while filming the Ignition I did between on the GT350.

      I backed it into a tire wall on the passenger rear and scuffed it. If you go back and watch the episode, look close on the right-rear and you'll see some damage.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GbbNlkP-ZSM

      I felt awful. Randy (Pobst), whom I had just started working with, thought I was a total hack. Even more so the next day when I did it AGAIN for a scene where he was chasing me in a Dodge Charger cop car. The first time I knew the wheel had locked up in my hand; the second I KNEW. Clear as day. Made me feel better when, while we were cleaning the dirt out of the wheels, one of the other MT staffers spun the other car (a GT350R) off the track backward and ripped a tire off the wheels.

      Then, couple years later, we did a 1LE vs GT350R episode and from day 1, I said: NO DRIFTS. Randy wanted to try it anyway when we got to Willow Springs. Randy doesn't spin cars. If he does, something's wrong. He spun the R over and over and over again. I think he got one or two drifts in where it didn't snap back the other direction and throw him into a spin.

      I never said anything about it because... who wants to be the guy who wrecks somebody else's car and then blames the car. But after that, I knew. Is it a flaw? Well, depends on your viewpoint: Is the point of a car to do full-opposite-lock slides at 1g for camera? Probably not. Therefore it's just a thing.

      But over the last few years, I've driven a couple hundred more cars with EPAS and there's definitely a motor-size correlation with high-frequency on-center feel. Bigger the motor (given the same type of assist) the less comes through. BMWs are massive.

      And for @MylesPH1 and such, you can't compare hydro and EPAS systems. In reality you can't just compare two different EPAS-motor sizes. There are so many other significant factors: suspension design, wheel size, tire type and size, alignment, weight, steering ratio, it goes on and on.

      But anyway... other questions? Just ask away!
      J
      Last edited by 2ManyCars; 07-11-2019 at 06:06 PM.
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      07-11-2019 06:24 PM #6
      I'm surprised you wrote that article to be honest. Car culture, male ego, and the herp derp "I R GR8 Drivr I never crash" mentality can be brutal on those who either make mistakes, or hit the limitations of the car in your case Jason. Why am I surprised? Well it was 4 years ago and you had gotten away with the crime, but then brought it up later. This being TCL I'm actually surprised some asshat hasn't posted in here saying nothing but stupid nasty things.

      The internet man. It's a funny place.
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      07-11-2019 06:29 PM #7
      Quote Originally Posted by Sold Over Sticker View Post
      I'm surprised you wrote that article to be honest. Car culture, male ego, and the herp derp "I R GR8 Drivr I never crash" mentality can be brutal on those who either make mistakes, or hit the limitations of the car in your case Jason. Why am I surprised? Well it was 4 years ago and you had gotten away with the crime, but then brought it up later. This being TCL I'm actually surprised some asshat hasn't posted in here saying nothing but stupid nasty things.

      The internet man. It's a funny place.
      It takes a big man to admit he made a mistake and crashed, especially one who pushes cars regularly.

      This is truly something else though. To scientifically decipher and filter through after the fact and manage to blame a component on the car and absolve yourself. I'm impressed.
      Quote Originally Posted by cockerpunk View Post
      yes, i am bored by FWD driving dynamics, and anyone who doesn't drive there cars to the limits and the beyond.

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      07-11-2019 06:36 PM #8
      Quote Originally Posted by Sold Over Sticker View Post
      This being TCL

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      07-11-2019 06:46 PM #9
      Quote Originally Posted by 2ManyCars View Post
      And for @MylesPH1 and such, you can't compare hydro and EPAS systems. In reality you can't just compare two different EPAS-motor sizes. There are so many other significant factors: suspension design, wheel size, tire type and size, alignment, weight, steering ratio, it goes on and on.
      Incorrect. Through my extensive morning alley test I’ve determined that my Volvo has better steering than my Z/28. Natch.

      Seriously, though - you did a (great) head to head episode of that Mustang against a Z/28, cars that are much more similar, and both have EPAS. Both you and Randy said that the steering in the Chevy felt a bit numb, especially compared to the Mustang - but I also noticed you doing a decent slide/mild drift coming out of a turn in the Camaro at Big Willow, with Randy in the passenger seat.

      Both of those cars have 305mm front tires, but would you describe the Camaro as more “catchable”? The Mustang seemed to be clearly easier to drive hard out of corners, and generally more precise than the Camaro.
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      07-11-2019 09:05 PM #10
      Quote Originally Posted by 2ManyCars View Post
      But over the last few years, I've driven a couple hundred more cars with EPAS and there's definitely a motor-size correlation with high-frequency on-center feel. Bigger the motor (given the same type of assist) the less comes through. BMWs are massive.
      Oh a correlation makes total sense; just like RWD versions of cars available in AWD are often better steer-ers without the axles getting in the way. I'm just thinking that it's something that can be engineered around with sensors and control systems given sufficient resources--maybe I just don't want to give BMW a pass for having strong assist.

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      07-12-2019 01:48 AM #11
      Quote Originally Posted by 2ManyCars View Post
      Oh yeah, no one got hurt*— but thanks for your guys' concern. The whole thing happened in Oct 2015*(OMG 4 years ago already?!) while filming the Ignition I did between on the GT350.

      I backed it into a tire wall on the passenger rear and scuffed it. If you go back and watch the episode, look close on the right-rear and you'll see some damage.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GbbNlkP-ZSM

      I felt awful. Randy (Pobst), whom I had just started working with, thought I was a total hack. Even more so the next day when I did it AGAIN for a scene where he was chasing me in a Dodge Charger cop car. The first time I knew the wheel had locked up in my hand; the second I KNEW. Clear as day. Made me feel better when, while we were cleaning the dirt out of the wheels, one of the other MT staffers spun the other car (a GT350R) off the track backward and ripped a tire off the wheels.

      J
      BTW, I loved that episode! It was one I had watched a number of times when I was considering buying the GT350R. That and Randy P's GT350R hot lap at Laguna where he giggled.

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      07-12-2019 02:08 AM #12
      Quote Originally Posted by 2ManyCars View Post
      depends on your viewpoint: Is the point of a car to do full-opposite-lock slides at 1g for camera? Probably not. Therefore it's just a thing.
      J
      Kind of depends on the car, I mean the point of 60s no name Opel sedans isn't to go full speed in reverse and crank into a Rockford, but the fact is the car couldn't do it without flipping on the roof, and we have a cool story of Bob Lutz putting one on the roof and putting some German execs in their place because of it.

      Thinking in the extreme, I sort of appreciate that BMW has put in steering that will stand up to a 'worst case' scenario. In most peoples cases its overkill, but it's nice to know it *can* do it. if pro drivers have trouble with the car in the stock setup, that's a bit of an issue. I would assume that it doesn't have the issue on low traction surfaces, correct? if it did, I could definitely see that being an problem for owners who drive them in rain or snow. As mentioned here the car does have a reputation for being a bit uncatchable- see C&C silliness.
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      07-12-2019 02:53 AM #13
      I wonder if the physics of the mustang make it less than ideal to drift? It has a really long wheelbase with a boat anchor of a motor up front, and a fairly primitive suspension. Despite the coupe shape it has the dimensions of a large sedan.

      Doesn't seem to be surprising that it would have snap oversteer when drifting.

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      07-11-2019 10:05 AM #14
      Quote Originally Posted by 2 doors View Post
      Ah Jason, so close to using the words properly. Dampers damp, wet sponges dampen.


      damp·en
      /ˈdampən/

      verb
      1.
      make slightly wet.
      "the fine rain dampened her face"
      synonyms: moisten, damp, wet, dew, water, irrigate, humidify; More
      2.
      make less strong or intense.
      "nothing could dampen her enthusiasm"
      synonyms: lessen, decrease, diminish, reduce, lower, moderate, damp, damp down, put a damper on, throw cold water on, calm, cool, chill, dull, blunt, tone down, deaden, temper, discourage; More

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      07-11-2019 11:45 AM #15
      Cars like the 911/Boxster/Miata/etc are always going to have decent/good steering feel due to relatively skinny tires and low weight on the nose.

      The Shelby runs 295 or 305 tires on the front depending on the model so the tradeoff for steering feel makes sense. I haven't heard the same problem with the Camaro though...


      Maybe I'll ask Jim Mero on CF later.
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      07-11-2019 11:50 AM #16
      Quote Originally Posted by JustinCSVT View Post

      Maybe I'll ask Jim Mero on CF later.
      What would he know?

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      07-11-2019 12:24 PM #17
      Quote Originally Posted by Quinn1.8t View Post
      What would he know?
      Not much.
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      07-11-2019 09:57 PM #18
      Quote Originally Posted by GLIDrummer View Post
      damp·en
      /ˈdampən/

      verb
      1.
      make slightly wet.
      "the fine rain dampened her face"
      synonyms:moisten, damp, wet, dew, water, irrigate, humidify; More
      2.
      make less strong or intense.
      "nothing could dampen her enthusiasm"
      synonyms:lessen, decrease, diminish, reduce, lower, moderate, damp, damp down, put a damper on, throw cold water on, calm, cool, chill, dull, blunt, tone down, deaden, temper, discourage; More
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      07-11-2019 10:32 PM #19
      As others have stated, takes quite a bit to muster up the courage to say "I'm an auto journalist, and I sent a car off the track".

      Glad it wasn't more serious, and I also though the EPAS stuff was interesting as hell, so thanks for sharing.
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      07-12-2019 01:33 AM #20
      Interesting... I find the GT350R to be quite "catchable" at the track and that its light steering is quick to react to small inputs at the margin. But then, I'm correcting small trail braking movements in places like Sonoma turn 7, 4 or maybe a little power oversteer coming out of turn 6. Same at T-Hill in turns like 11 or 14. But with that said, I'm not a drifter and would probably find that the GT350R is much harder to control in "big swings" during full opposite-lock type drift. So I guess I'm just going to assume the GT350R was not engineered to be a drift car!

      Now, my friend Tony B (former Formula Drift champion) might have something else to say about that, having won his prior championship in a Mustang. I think he'd tell you he loves the steering reactions on his 2016 GT350R!




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      07-11-2019 10:30 AM #21
      Quote Originally Posted by 2 doors View Post
      Ah Jason, so close to using the words properly. Dampers damp, wet sponges dampen.
      Damp towels damp?
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      07-11-2019 12:21 PM #22
      No wonder the 911 runs relatively skinny tires up front.

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      07-11-2019 04:35 PM #23
      Quote Originally Posted by Meroving1an View Post
      No wonder the 911 runs relatively skinny tires up front.
      The 911 has no where near as much weight up front compared to a Mustang.

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      07-11-2019 04:49 PM #24
      Not sure how true it is that a larger steering motor needs to filter steering feedback more. Just like with regenerative braking, with the right sensors and control units, you can control how much electric motors resist turning.

      I mean, the Gen3 Cayenne's steer great, I'm sure they've got a beefy motor.

    25. Planters (fasciitis) peanuts. Dang dogg Sold Over Sticker's Avatar
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      07-11-2019 05:36 PM #25
      I've yet to have EPS get in the way while driving, but the last one I drove was Daves GT350R, and I'm not going to pitch his car sideways unless expressly requested, and I doubt he'd request me to do so.
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