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    Thread: Cammisa wadded up a Shelby GT350 while drifting

    1. Global Moderator MylesPH1's Avatar
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      07-11-2019 06:46 PM #26
      Quote Originally Posted by 2ManyCars View Post
      And for @MylesPH1 and such, you can't compare hydro and EPAS systems. In reality you can't just compare two different EPAS-motor sizes. There are so many other significant factors: suspension design, wheel size, tire type and size, alignment, weight, steering ratio, it goes on and on.
      Incorrect. Through my extensive morning alley test I’ve determined that my Volvo has better steering than my Z/28. Natch.

      Seriously, though - you did a (great) head to head episode of that Mustang against a Z/28, cars that are much more similar, and both have EPAS. Both you and Randy said that the steering in the Chevy felt a bit numb, especially compared to the Mustang - but I also noticed you doing a decent slide/mild drift coming out of a turn in the Camaro at Big Willow, with Randy in the passenger seat.

      Both of those cars have 305mm front tires, but would you describe the Camaro as more “catchable”? The Mustang seemed to be clearly easier to drive hard out of corners, and generally more precise than the Camaro.
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    3. Member Meroving1an's Avatar
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      07-11-2019 07:26 PM #27
      Quote Originally Posted by AZGolf View Post
      The 911 has no where near as much weight up front compared to a Mustang.
      That's a good point; forgot to consider that.

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      07-11-2019 07:30 PM #28
      Quote Originally Posted by Cousin Eddie View Post
      It takes a big man to admit he made a mistake and crashed, especially one who pushes cars regularly.

      This is truly something else though. To scientifically decipher and filter through after the fact and manage to blame a component on the car and absolve yourself. I'm impressed.
      Totally. Usually it's just "man, I must be hungover or something because I don't usually do that" to which everyone says "suuuuuure."
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      07-11-2019 07:43 PM #29
      Quote Originally Posted by Cousin Eddie View Post
      My dad's 964 race car is getting closer to being finished. 3.8L forged internals engine build with ITBs/EFI. It also now has a Volvo S40 electric steering pump. Am I going to die?
      Depends on how strong you are. Do you even lift bro? If you don’t use Muscle Milk my guess is you’re toast.


      As a few TCL’ers who’ve driven with me can attest, the Camaro is pretty quick to catch oversteer. I don’t have any real experience with the Mustang, though, and I also like those a lot.
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    6. Planters (fasciitis) peanuts. Dang dogg Sold Over Sticker's Avatar
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      07-11-2019 07:47 PM #30
      Quote Originally Posted by MylesPH1 View Post
      As a few TCL’ers who’ve driven with me can attest, the Camaro is pretty quick to catch oversteer. I don’t have any real experience with the Mustang, though, and I also like those a lot.
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      Quote Originally Posted by Phillie Phanatic
      SoS - please shoot a message when Brendan & His Retarded Sycophants has another gig. I’ll be there, front row.

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      07-11-2019 09:05 PM #31
      Quote Originally Posted by 2ManyCars View Post
      But over the last few years, I've driven a couple hundred more cars with EPAS and there's definitely a motor-size correlation with high-frequency on-center feel. Bigger the motor (given the same type of assist) the less comes through. BMWs are massive.
      Oh a correlation makes total sense; just like RWD versions of cars available in AWD are often better steer-ers without the axles getting in the way. I'm just thinking that it's something that can be engineered around with sensors and control systems given sufficient resources--maybe I just don't want to give BMW a pass for having strong assist.

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      07-11-2019 09:57 PM #32
      Quote Originally Posted by GLIDrummer View Post
      damp·en
      /ˈdampən/

      verb
      1.
      make slightly wet.
      "the fine rain dampened her face"
      synonyms:moisten, damp, wet, dew, water, irrigate, humidify; More
      2.
      make less strong or intense.
      "nothing could dampen her enthusiasm"
      synonyms:lessen, decrease, diminish, reduce, lower, moderate, damp, damp down, put a damper on, throw cold water on, calm, cool, chill, dull, blunt, tone down, deaden, temper, discourage; More
      I keep on seeing people point out this “mistake,” and it always didn’t seem right. Thanks for spending the 5 seconds googling this for me.
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    9. Don't be me. Don't be a 'Rick' Cabin Pics's Avatar
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      07-11-2019 10:32 PM #33
      As others have stated, takes quite a bit to muster up the courage to say "I'm an auto journalist, and I sent a car off the track".

      Glad it wasn't more serious, and I also though the EPAS stuff was interesting as hell, so thanks for sharing.
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      07-12-2019 01:33 AM #34
      Interesting... I find the GT350R to be quite "catchable" at the track and that its light steering is quick to react to small inputs at the margin. But then, I'm correcting small trail braking movements in places like Sonoma turn 7, 4 or maybe a little power oversteer coming out of turn 6. Same at T-Hill in turns like 11 or 14. But with that said, I'm not a drifter and would probably find that the GT350R is much harder to control in "big swings" during full opposite-lock type drift. So I guess I'm just going to assume the GT350R was not engineered to be a drift car!

      Now, my friend Tony B (former Formula Drift champion) might have something else to say about that, having won his prior championship in a Mustang. I think he'd tell you he loves the steering reactions on his 2016 GT350R!




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      07-12-2019 01:46 AM #35
      Quote Originally Posted by Cousin Eddie View Post
      My dad's 964 race car is getting closer to being finished. 3.8L forged internals engine build with ITBs/EFI. It also now has a Volvo S40 electric steering pump. Am I going to die?
      Only a little bit, on the inside. every time you turn.
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      07-12-2019 01:48 AM #36
      Quote Originally Posted by 2ManyCars View Post
      Oh yeah, no one got hurt*— but thanks for your guys' concern. The whole thing happened in Oct 2015*(OMG 4 years ago already?!) while filming the Ignition I did between on the GT350.

      I backed it into a tire wall on the passenger rear and scuffed it. If you go back and watch the episode, look close on the right-rear and you'll see some damage.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GbbNlkP-ZSM

      I felt awful. Randy (Pobst), whom I had just started working with, thought I was a total hack. Even more so the next day when I did it AGAIN for a scene where he was chasing me in a Dodge Charger cop car. The first time I knew the wheel had locked up in my hand; the second I KNEW. Clear as day. Made me feel better when, while we were cleaning the dirt out of the wheels, one of the other MT staffers spun the other car (a GT350R) off the track backward and ripped a tire off the wheels.

      J
      BTW, I loved that episode! It was one I had watched a number of times when I was considering buying the GT350R. That and Randy P's GT350R hot lap at Laguna where he giggled.

    13. Member MGQ's Avatar
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      07-12-2019 02:08 AM #37
      Quote Originally Posted by 2ManyCars View Post
      depends on your viewpoint: Is the point of a car to do full-opposite-lock slides at 1g for camera? Probably not. Therefore it's just a thing.
      J
      Kind of depends on the car, I mean the point of 60s no name Opel sedans isn't to go full speed in reverse and crank into a Rockford, but the fact is the car couldn't do it without flipping on the roof, and we have a cool story of Bob Lutz putting one on the roof and putting some German execs in their place because of it.

      Thinking in the extreme, I sort of appreciate that BMW has put in steering that will stand up to a 'worst case' scenario. In most peoples cases its overkill, but it's nice to know it *can* do it. if pro drivers have trouble with the car in the stock setup, that's a bit of an issue. I would assume that it doesn't have the issue on low traction surfaces, correct? if it did, I could definitely see that being an problem for owners who drive them in rain or snow. As mentioned here the car does have a reputation for being a bit uncatchable- see C&C silliness.
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    14. Member HI SPEED's Avatar
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      07-12-2019 02:53 AM #38
      I wonder if the physics of the mustang make it less than ideal to drift? It has a really long wheelbase with a boat anchor of a motor up front, and a fairly primitive suspension. Despite the coupe shape it has the dimensions of a large sedan.

      Doesn't seem to be surprising that it would have snap oversteer when drifting.

    15. Member MGQ's Avatar
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      07-12-2019 03:02 AM #39
      Quote Originally Posted by HI SPEED View Post
      I wonder if the physics of the mustang make it less than ideal to drift? It has a really long wheelbase with a boat anchor of a motor up front, and a fairly primitive suspension. Despite the coupe shape it has the dimensions of a large sedan.

      Doesn't seem to be surprising that it would have snap oversteer when drifting.
      for the most part, those qualities (large/long, front weight bias) would make it easier to drift. I don't know by what metric the GT350 (2019 ver.) would be considered to have primitive suspension, but realistically, no it shouldn't be that difficult.
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      07-12-2019 07:06 AM #40
      What is the steering ratio & turning circle of the GT350 vs the Camaro? For drifting you want fast steering and silly steering lock.

    17. Planters (fasciitis) peanuts. Dang dogg Sold Over Sticker's Avatar
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      07-12-2019 07:43 AM #41
      Quote Originally Posted by HI SPEED View Post
      I wonder if the physics of the mustang make it less than ideal to drift? It has a really long wheelbase with a boat anchor of a motor up front, and a fairly primitive suspension. Despite the coupe shape it has the dimensions of a large sedan.

      Doesn't seem to be surprising that it would have snap oversteer when drifting.
      This is the first time I’ve heard of a Voodoo referred to as a boat anchor. You guys must have some really fancy boats out there.
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    18. I’m not a loser. I’m a winnah!! patrikman's Avatar
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      07-12-2019 08:41 AM #42
      Quote Originally Posted by HI SPEED View Post
      I wonder if the physics of the mustang make it less than ideal to drift? It has a really long wheelbase with a boat anchor of a motor up front, and a fairly primitive suspension. Despite the coupe shape it has the dimensions of a large sedan.

      Doesn't seem to be surprising that it would have snap oversteer when drifting.
      A boat anchor? A malaise era big block with 190hp is a boat anchor.
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      07-12-2019 09:50 AM #43
      Quote Originally Posted by HI SPEED View Post
      I wonder if the physics of the mustang make it less than ideal to drift? It has a really long wheelbase with a boat anchor of a motor up front, and a fairly primitive suspension. Despite the coupe shape it has the dimensions of a large sedan.

      Doesn't seem to be surprising that it would have snap oversteer when drifting.
      I think you must be referring to an older model Mustang. Yes, it’s a large car with a front engine, but the GT350 in question has a terrific suspension, with MagneRide dampers and tuned steering and suspension that makes it corner as well as just about any sports car you can name. Maybe you are referring to the old solid live axle cars? As of 2015, all Mustangs changed to an independent rear suspension, so what is primitive? And as SoS mentions above, the GT350 Voodoo flat-plane crank, 8200 rpm V8 is quite far from a boat anchor. Yes, it’s a front engine car. But if you go to fastestlaps.com and review lap times at a place like Laguna Seca (where Randy Pobst gives us comparisons across many cars with same driver and same track), you’d know that the GT350R did 1:36.11, faster than a Ferrari 458 (a great drivers car) and just 2.7 seconds slower than a 991 Porsche GT3RS.

      So the physics may make it better for actual racing or track day driving than for drifting (we agree on that!) but primitive it’s not! Road and Track once described the car as “a science-fair diorama of nerdy engineering tricks and accomplishments.”

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      07-12-2019 11:52 AM #44
      Quote Originally Posted by Dave_Car_Guy View Post
      Interesting... I find the GT350R to be quite "catchable" at the track and that its light steering is quick to react to small inputs at the margin. But then, I'm correcting small trail braking movements
      Yep, that's the difference. Car is suuuper easy to catch at first, which is why it surprised the hell out of me when, suddenly, it wasn't. Get it to full opposite lock in one direction and then try to catch it? Steering locks.

      I don't know if it's a geometry issue at the end of the rack that ramps up the forces, or if it's just an undersized motor. But if I replay in my mind the cars I've drifted for camera, the GT350 is in the Top 2 of motherf*ckers. (The other was a Lamborghini Huracan LP580-2 that threw itself into a spin at random times. Including once under straight-line braking and once under straight-line acceleration, both with ESP on. It was terrifying.)

      ...but to this day I still adore the Shelbys. I'd own one. I just would never try to drift it.
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      07-12-2019 12:07 PM #45
      Quote Originally Posted by 2ManyCars View Post
      (The other was a Lamborghini Huracan LP580-2 that threw itself into a spin at random times. Including once under straight-line braking and once under straight-line acceleration, both with ESP on. It was terrifying.)

      J
      You're gonna need to do a little more 'splainin on the LP580-2 good sir.

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      07-12-2019 12:10 PM #46
      Quote Originally Posted by 2ManyCars View Post
      I just would never try to drift it.
      Did you drive the limo at all? Because I want to know how that compared. After the fuel filter fix.
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      07-12-2019 12:11 PM #47
      Quote Originally Posted by Cabin Pics View Post
      You're gonna need to do a little more 'splainin on the LP580-2 good sir.

      That thing sounds like a good time

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      07-12-2019 12:31 PM #48
      Quote Originally Posted by Cabin Pics View Post
      You're gonna need to do a little more 'splainin on the LP580-2 good sir.
      It was terrifying. Under acceleration, the rear end would start to oscillate left/right. If you kept your foot in it, I learned the hard way, the oscillations would become larger and larger and then just throw it into a spin. It started out half-funny... in the Ignition video there's a shot of me inside the car laughing "I just spun a car with stability control on." That was the first time.

      An hour later, I didn't even want to sit in the car I was so scared of the thing. And then, mercifully, it put itself into Limp Mode. Wouldn't rev past 4000 rpm, wouldn't give more than like 20% throttle. And that was Fine. By. Me.

      Left it to be towed the hundreds of miles back to the dealer; warned the Lambo people not to let anyone drive the car. The only thing I heard was "we couldn't find anything wrong." To which I thought: well then burn the effing thing to the ground before it kills someone.

      The crazy thing is that when you're dealing with this kind of horsepower and performance, the smallest things can have the hugest ramifications. I've been on track in old 911s with frames so rotted they were about to crack in half... and they're fine. Everything happens so slowly in old cars, and there's so much compliance (i.e. flex) in the chassis, tires, suspension that things just don't change all that much. The Lambo's issue could have been something so simple as a tire problem. This is the kind of stuff that keeps me driving old cars.

      Anyway. that's the Lambo story.


      Quote Originally Posted by atomicalex
      Did you drive the limo at all? Because I want to know how that compared. After the fuel filter fix.
      You talking about the Cadillac Limo in that BABE Rally story from 2007? Haha, I drove the entire way. It was... horrifying. But slow.
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      07-12-2019 12:54 PM #49
      Quote Originally Posted by 2ManyCars View Post
      It was terrifying. Under acceleration, the rear end would start to oscillate left/right. If you kept your foot in it, I learned the hard way, the oscillations would become larger and larger and then just throw it into a spin. It started out half-funny... in the Ignition video there's a shot of me inside the car laughing "I just spun a car with stability control on." That was the first time.
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      07-12-2019 01:14 PM #50
      Quote Originally Posted by 2ManyCars View Post
      Everything happens so slowly in old cars, and there's so much compliance (i.e. flex) in the chassis, tires, suspension that things just don't change all that much.
      Solid (pun intended) point, really. I'm ever so slightly concerned that the lax suspension in KBJr's MR2 is saving him from certain death. It's getting new shocks this weekend. Could ded.

      Quote Originally Posted by 2ManyCars View Post
      You talking about the Cadillac Limo in that BABE Rally story from 2007? Haha, I drove the entire way. It was... horrifying. But slow.
      LOL I was trying to remember who actually drove the damn thing. It was hard to see past Jean.
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