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    Thread: Drove a Golf R the other day.

    1. 07-12-2019 04:40 PM #101
      Quote Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
      But the quote you posted kind of explains how it's not a gimmick... Changing gears manually in anticipation is fun, challenging, and the one thing an automatic trans - even a good one - can't really do very well.

      LA freeway traffic is a good example. Even when traffic is flowing there's absolutely no lane discipline, so "to make decent progress" you need to always be in the right gear at the right time, and use the brakes somewhat sparingly. I find the DSG in manual mode offers a point-to-point flexibility that even a good manual trans can't duplicate. It's both challenging and rewarding to pull off successfully time and time again.
      "Changing" gears manually in a DSG or any other automatic feels unnatural and not what the transmission was designed for. It defeats the purpose of having an automatic to begin with.

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      07-12-2019 04:51 PM #102
      Quote Originally Posted by Rakshas View Post
      I’d pay extra to get the sunroof deleted on most cars.
      Next, you're going to tell me you don't even own a TV!

      I understand why VW doesn't offer the Golf R with a sunroof, but I'd happily pay extra to have one, and a Focus RS is more appealing to me as a daily driver because I live in MN and will take all the sun I can get.

    4. Member Jimmy Russells's Avatar
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      07-12-2019 04:53 PM #103
      Quote Originally Posted by MonsterM View Post
      Because nobody will waste money on FWD based performance applications at this point. RS/CTR/STI come with a manual only for a reason. VW already dumped extremely high amount money and resources into the DSG.
      The one I can think of that apparently is ok is the new one in the A35/A45, which might actually be the ZF now that I think about it. The last gen was bad though.


      Quote Originally Posted by MonsterM View Post
      not what the transmission was designed for
      The transmission simply shifts. Whether the TCU tells it to shift, or you tell it to shift it makes no difference.

    5. Member SCHWAB0's Avatar
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      07-12-2019 04:56 PM #104
      Quote Originally Posted by MonsterM View Post
      Manual is cheaper to begin with...That is why DSG holds resale a little better, it is more expensive to begin with. Manual will retain value better over the longer period of time. There is nothing special about the DSG. It is an obsolete technology next to ZF.
      The take rate is much higher on the DSG. That's why 2019s are all DSG. They (VW) noted next MK8R will be DSG only and 4 doors for US market.

      Either way...all transmissions will go away soon....enjoyw hile you can


      Sent from my mobile office.
      Previous: '95 Talon AWD 2.0T | '98 GTI 2.0 | '00 Jetta 2.0 | '02 GLI 2.8 | '07 GTI 2.0T | '09 GLI 2.0T | '00 A4 2.8 | '04 R32 3.2 | '12 R 2.0T | '01 S4 2.7TT | '14 ST 1.6T | '12 R 2.0T | '16 R 2.0T | '17 R 2.0T | '18 RS3 2.5T |
      VW MK7 GTI/R Installation YT Vids: Schwabo

    6. 07-12-2019 04:59 PM #105
      Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy Russells View Post
      The one I can think of that apparently is ok is the new one in the A35/A45, which might actually be the ZF now that I think about it. The last gen was bad though.




      The transmission simply shifts. Whether the TCU tells it to shift, or you tell it to shift it makes no difference.
      I have no experience with the RS3 application but with VW ones I had or drove, when you shift it, it seemed much slower than when you just leave in S. I am also pretty sure AMG A models are DCT.

    7. Member ZPayne's Avatar
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      07-12-2019 05:01 PM #106
      Quote Originally Posted by CTK View Post
      This is far from the only reason to get an automatic for a performance car

      And we can't forget that all stickshifts are not created equal. Look at all the work you did to get decent shift quality out of the STI. Look at the weak clutch problem with the GTI/R. G70 manual is meh. Every Nissan manual in existence ranges from awful to meh. Rev hang is cancer etc. If the only fun part of a car is changing gears either it's a ****ty car or someone's priorities are warped
      The GTI/R clutch is fine if you don't add power. Can't really fault VW for not being mod friendly on their stock clutch, IMO. Plus, if you tune your DSG car, you gotta budget what? another $600 for the DSG tune? So it's a wash in terms of cost.

      So that's not really a negative, at least in terms of driving feel. The operation of the stock clutch and shifter IMO is well above average. It is better than the shifter in your average non-M BMW, I'll tell you that. Put a short shifter on there and a clutch bleeder block, maybe some bushings/etc. It's an A+ gearbox, especially with the short gearing.
      Last edited by ZPayne; 07-12-2019 at 05:11 PM.

    8. 07-12-2019 05:05 PM #107
      Quote Originally Posted by SCHWAB0 View Post
      The take rate is much higher on the DSG. That's why 2019s are all DSG. They (VW) noted next MK8R will be DSG only and 4 doors for US market.

      Either way...all transmissions will go away soon....enjoyw hile you can


      Sent from my mobile office.
      It is such a niche car, they still haven't even sold 2,000 units as of this year that is why it would make sense just to stick with an auto. And this is also why the manual will hold value better in the longer run. But yes, both are obsolete. Even more of a reason to grab a manual while you still can. VW also noted MK8 GTI will be available with a manual.

    9. 07-12-2019 05:10 PM #108
      Quote Originally Posted by ZPayne View Post
      The GTI/R clutch is fine if you don't add power. Can't really fault VW for not being mod friendly on their stock clutch, IMO. Plus, if you tune your DSG car, you gotta budget what? another $600 for the DSG tune? So it's a wash in terms of cost.

      So that's not really a negative, at least in terms of driving feel. The operation of the stock clutch and shifter IMO is well above average. It is better than the shifter in your average non-M BMW, I'll tell you that. Put a short shifter on there and a clutch bleeder, maybe some bushings/etc. It's an A+ gearbox, especially with the short gearing.
      Ill rather have the clutch slip with the increased torque than blow a turbo or worse yet, throw a rod or crack a piston. In a weird way, having a "weak" clutch is cheap insurance when you are modding .

    10. Planters (fasciitis) peanuts. Dang dogg Sold Over Sticker's Avatar
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      07-12-2019 05:14 PM #109
      Quote Originally Posted by MonsterM View Post
      "Changing" gears manually in a DSG or any other automatic feels unnatural and not what the transmission was designed for. It defeats the purpose of having an automatic to begin with.
      I'd personally get a manual one, but I'm having a hard time following you here. What's unnatural or how is it not designed to accept an input to tell it to change gears? Unpack this one for me since it's not making a lot of sense.
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    11. Member SCHWAB0's Avatar
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      07-12-2019 05:14 PM #110
      Quote Originally Posted by ZPayne View Post
      The GTI/R clutch is fine if you don't add power. Can't really fault VW for not being mod friendly on their stock clutch, IMO. Plus, if you tune your DSG car, you gotta budget what? another $600 for the DSG tune? So it's a wash in terms of cost.

      So that's not really a negative, at least in terms of driving feel. The operation of the stock clutch and shifter IMO is well above average. It is better than the shifter in your average non-M BMW, I'll tell you that. Put a short shifter on there and a clutch bleeder block, maybe some bushings/etc. It's an A+ gearbox, especially with the short gearing.
      The clutches are imploding even with stock power levels.... I'm sure you've seen the posts.

      100% agree on a short shifter and shifter bushings make it shine evenmoreso.


      Sent from my mobile office.
      Previous: '95 Talon AWD 2.0T | '98 GTI 2.0 | '00 Jetta 2.0 | '02 GLI 2.8 | '07 GTI 2.0T | '09 GLI 2.0T | '00 A4 2.8 | '04 R32 3.2 | '12 R 2.0T | '01 S4 2.7TT | '14 ST 1.6T | '12 R 2.0T | '16 R 2.0T | '17 R 2.0T | '18 RS3 2.5T |
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    12. Member SCHWAB0's Avatar
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      07-12-2019 05:16 PM #111
      Quote Originally Posted by MonsterM View Post
      It is such a niche car, they still haven't even sold 2,000 units as of this year that is why it would make sense just to stick with an auto. And this is also why the manual will hold value better in the longer run. But yes, both are obsolete. Even more of a reason to grab a manual while you still can. VW also noted MK8 GTI will be available with a manual.
      Worldwide as well...i hope you're right. It's a great car regardless of the tranny...i think we can all agree on that.


      Sent from my mobile office.
      Previous: '95 Talon AWD 2.0T | '98 GTI 2.0 | '00 Jetta 2.0 | '02 GLI 2.8 | '07 GTI 2.0T | '09 GLI 2.0T | '00 A4 2.8 | '04 R32 3.2 | '12 R 2.0T | '01 S4 2.7TT | '14 ST 1.6T | '12 R 2.0T | '16 R 2.0T | '17 R 2.0T | '18 RS3 2.5T |
      VW MK7 GTI/R Installation YT Vids: Schwabo

    13. 07-12-2019 05:17 PM #112
      Quote Originally Posted by Sold Over Sticker View Post
      I'd personally get a manual one, but I'm having a hard time following you here. What's unnatural or how is it not designed to accept an input to tell it to change gears? Unpack this one for me since it's not making a lot of sense.
      Meaning that when you leave it in S for example, the computer finds optimal shifting points, while when you do the M mode, you shift when you want. It feels unnatural to me and obviously it would be much easier for the TCU to find the optimal shifting points. That is what I meant.

    14. Planters (fasciitis) peanuts. Dang dogg Sold Over Sticker's Avatar
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      07-12-2019 05:27 PM #113
      Quote Originally Posted by MonsterM View Post
      Meaning that when you leave it in S for example, the computer finds optimal shifting points, while when you do the M mode, you shift when you want. It feels unnatural to me and obviously it would be much easier for the TCU to find the optimal shifting points. That is what I meant.
      Gotcha. For around town driving I agree. I usually leave auto's in drive and just let them do their thing.

      For performance driving I still put it in manual since I'd rather dictate when the gear changes happen since I can see the road and the TCU can't. They tend to upshift as I'm maintaining speed on a straight and then drop a gear during braking, and I'd rather just hold the lower gear on the straight as a lift might be enough to get the rotation I want.
      Driving While Awesome Podcast. Give it a listen.
      Quote Originally Posted by Phillie Phanatic
      SoS - please shoot a message when Brendan & His Retarded Sycophants has another gig. I’ll be there, front row.

    15. 07-12-2019 05:29 PM #114
      Quote Originally Posted by SCHWAB0 View Post
      Worldwide as well...i hope you're right. It's a great car regardless of the tranny...i think we can all agree on that.


      Sent from my mobile office.
      Yeap. One of my all time favorite cars.

    16. 07-12-2019 05:34 PM #115
      Quote Originally Posted by Sold Over Sticker View Post
      Gotcha. For around town driving I agree. I usually leave auto's in drive and just let them do their thing.

      For performance driving I still put it in manual since I'd rather dictate when the gear changes happen since I can see the road and the TCU can't. They tend to upshift as I'm maintaining speed on a straight and then drop a gear during braking, and I'd rather just hold the lower gear on the straight as a lift might be enough to get the rotation I want.
      Well, I think the TCU always wins. I have a COBB AP with the light tree that is set up to shift at 6,500 RPM but a sophisticated TCU like the VAG one will work based on all inputs, like the load, temps and so on. Leaving it in S will always give you optimal performance.

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      07-12-2019 05:54 PM #116
      Quote Originally Posted by MonsterM View Post
      Leaving it in S will always give you optimal performance.
      See, this is what makes me think you just don't have enough experience driving a DSG car in manual mode to really appreciate my POV.

      Driving in D is a compromise because the car wants to upshift too soon, takes too much input to downshift, etc (I actually find it very frustrating to drive in this mode). But S is also a compromise, as around town it's often too aggressive in holding RPM and downshifting too quickly, etc.

      Most driving is a combination of a lot of conservative time mixed with moments of aggression (or whatever you want to call it). Using manual mode even around town lets *me* decide how I want to drive and when. It becomes intuitive. You know, just like with a stick shift trans...

    18. Member Jimmy Russells's Avatar
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      07-12-2019 06:04 PM #117
      Quote Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
      Driving in D is a compromise because the car wants to upshift too soon, takes too much input to downshift, etc (I actually find it very frustrating to drive in this mode). But S is also a compromise, as around town it's often too aggressive in holding RPM and downshifting too quickly, etc.
      This is my take too. I'm not joking when I say I haven't spent a cumulative ten minutes in S mode in my car in 16 months.

    19. 07-12-2019 06:49 PM #118
      I'm a little late to the party, but here are my impressions-

      I love manuals. My current DD is a manual. I have owned several before my current one. There are many cars that I wouldn't even consider buying in non-manual form. The GTI and R go against that I find. I owned a DSG Mk7 GTI for 3 years, and have driven numerous DSG and manual GTI's, R's, and even TDI's (I used to work for VW). I don't think the manual holds a candle to the DSG in these cars. It's not a matter of convenience, or clutch strength, or shift times, but one of execution. To me, the manual in these cars is just too sloppy. The clutch pedal is too soft, and the shift feel is too ropey for my tastes. It's not terrible by any means, but compared to something like a Civic Si or Miata, it is lacking in precision and enjoyment imo.

      All the other stuff- ease of use in traffic, ability to hold power, etc are just nice bonuses. I won't just say a manual or an automatic is superior over the other. It depends on the car, and the particular transmission itself. I don't want a manual in a big lux sedan, as I feel that takes away from the comfort and smoothness levels. I'll also take a good automatic over a bad manual. In the case of the Mk7, the manual isn't bad, but the DSG is really exemplary.

      TL;DR- It's not so easy to say a manual or auto is better than the other. Depends on the application and use. But I prefer DSG in this instance.



      Also, sidenote- good as DSG is, PDK kills it. It is so much quicker and crisper. That said, in nearly every example, I would prefer their manual over PDK. Again, because of the nature of the car, and because of how good the manual is.

    20. 07-12-2019 08:00 PM #119
      Quote Originally Posted by oidoglr View Post
      Next, you're going to tell me you don't even own a TV!

      I understand why VW doesn't offer the Golf R with a sunroof, but I'd happily pay extra to have one, and a Focus RS is more appealing to me as a daily driver because I live in MN and will take all the sun I can get.
      I don't have cable and only use my tv to watch the occasional movie. Does that count? I would have paid extra to have a sunroof delete option on my car.

      Quote Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
      See, this is what makes me think you just don't have enough experience driving a DSG car in manual mode to really appreciate my POV.

      Driving in D is a compromise because the car wants to upshift too soon, takes too much input to downshift, etc (I actually find it very frustrating to drive in this mode). But S is also a compromise, as around town it's often too aggressive in holding RPM and downshifting too quickly, etc.

      Most driving is a combination of a lot of conservative time mixed with moments of aggression (or whatever you want to call it). Using manual mode even around town lets *me* decide how I want to drive and when. It becomes intuitive. You know, just like with a stick shift trans...
      99% of my time with my dsg is in manual mode. It is definitely a lot faster shifting than I am if I'm pegging it. If I'm not, a lot of the time it feels like I could shift as fast or faster.

      *I haven't driven a dq250 R (did they get moved to dq500?) and would agree that the manual in my R wasn't the greatest.
      Last edited by MisterTroy; 07-12-2019 at 08:03 PM.

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      07-12-2019 11:46 PM #120
      The R is way underrated. Ask the guy driving the M4 on Woodward
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      07-13-2019 12:39 AM #121
      Quote Originally Posted by MisterTroy View Post
      I don't have cable and only use my tv to watch the occasional movie. Does that count? I would have paid extra to have a sunroof delete option on my car.



      99% of my time with my dsg is in manual mode. It is definitely a lot faster shifting than I am if I'm pegging it. If I'm not, a lot of the time it feels like I could shift as fast or faster.

      *I haven't driven a dq250 R (did they get moved to dq500?) and would agree that the manual in my R wasn't the greatest.
      DQ381 I believe

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      07-13-2019 11:21 AM #122
      All of this talk about DSG being better because it is designed for the car is nonsense. The biggest advantage a Golf R has is the 6 MT which is butter smooth with a nice clutch. I test drove a DSG just to see what the fuss is about and found it annoying and dim witted. I bought a 2019 with the 6 MT and couldn't be happier. Traded in my 2017 GTI Sport for a loss and am not looking back and couldn't be happier. If you are in a city the manual is also nicer in stop and go traffic and it is also better in winding mountain roads. Only advantage to a DSG is if you do a lot of driving on the track.
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      07-13-2019 01:36 PM #123
      Quote Originally Posted by rendogg840 View Post
      If you are in a city the manual is also nicer in stop and go traffic and it is also better in winding mountain roads. Only advantage to a DSG is if you do a lot of driving on the track.
      Not agreeing with a manual being nicer in stop and go traffic than a DSG. Can't think of anything nice about clutching and shifting in rush hour traffic a couple car lengths at a time while everyone creeps along

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      07-13-2019 01:39 PM #124
      Quote Originally Posted by SCHWAB0 View Post
      The clutches are imploding even with stock power levels.... I'm sure you've seen the posts.

      100% agree on a short shifter and shifter bushings make it shine evenmoreso.


      Sent from my mobile office.
      I've seen a few here and there but I don't think its a widespread issue... I hang out with a large local MQB group with plenty of R's, probably a dozen that are at stock power and I haven't seen anyone with slipping clutches at stock power. Plus those people, we don't know their driving style...
      Last edited by ZPayne; 07-13-2019 at 01:52 PM.

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      07-13-2019 01:43 PM #125
      Quote Originally Posted by PrettyHateMachine View Post
      I'm a little late to the party, but here are my impressions-

      I love manuals. My current DD is a manual. I have owned several before my current one. There are many cars that I wouldn't even consider buying in non-manual form. The GTI and R go against that I find. I owned a DSG Mk7 GTI for 3 years, and have driven numerous DSG and manual GTI's, R's, and even TDI's (I used to work for VW). I don't think the manual holds a candle to the DSG in these cars. It's not a matter of convenience, or clutch strength, or shift times, but one of execution. To me, the manual in these cars is just too sloppy. The clutch pedal is too soft, and the shift feel is too ropey for my tastes. It's not terrible by any means, but compared to something like a Civic Si or Miata, it is lacking in precision and enjoyment imo.

      All the other stuff- ease of use in traffic, ability to hold power, etc are just nice bonuses. I won't just say a manual or an automatic is superior over the other. It depends on the car, and the particular transmission itself. I don't want a manual in a big lux sedan, as I feel that takes away from the comfort and smoothness levels. I'll also take a good automatic over a bad manual. In the case of the Mk7, the manual isn't bad, but the DSG is really exemplary.

      TL;DR- It's not so easy to say a manual or auto is better than the other. Depends on the application and use. But I prefer DSG in this instance.



      Also, sidenote- good as DSG is, PDK kills it. It is so much quicker and crisper. That said, in nearly every example, I would prefer their manual over PDK. Again, because of the nature of the car, and because of how good the manual is.

      All of this is easily fixable with simple cheap mods. And the gearing in the Golf R is sublime, and nobody ever mentions that aspect. Its a light car with a lively chassis and quick spooling engine, a manual makes sense here.

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