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    Thread: In 2019, More than half of all auto loans in Canada are 84 month or longer terms

    1. Member
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      07-24-2019 10:00 AM #101
      Quote Originally Posted by AZGolf View Post
      The break even point depends entirely on how much down payment you bring. Look at the real world statistics. Among people who buy cars new, their average ownership period even in 2016 was 79 months and it was climbing fast. The average loan term is 67 months, which means on average, people who buy new cars have it paid off for 12 months before buying another car. We've all seen used car prices and obviously a 6-7 year old vehicle is still worth a lot on trade-in.

      The link you provided is both wrong and biased. It's wrong because it assumes that when somebody buys a car, they have $0 down payment and $0 trade-in value. It's biased because - did you even look at it? It's from a BANK trying to keep you paying them loan interest your entire life and never paying off your car loan. They are suggesting you trade in your car every 50 months or so which is obviously way below the 79 month average in the real world and 50 months is obviously below the 67 month average loan length.

      You guys can scream the sky is falling all you want but the numbers are freely available thanks to the internet:

      Average new car ownership: 79 months
      Average new car loan length: 67 months

      On average, new car buyers are making good financial choices and this is supported by real world data. The bottom 10 or 20% making bad choices do not invalidate the other 80-90% making good choices.
      That data doesn't tell the whole story. You'd need the debt-to-income ratios for a full picture, but I agree with you that longer loan terms are not inherently a bad thing.

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    3. Member D_B_Jetta's Avatar
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      07-24-2019 10:11 AM #102
      Quote Originally Posted by Dravenport View Post
      that's not even remotely close to the definition of long term dude
      Fair, by the numbers it looks off,

      1 used, paid cash, 3 years written off when lent to someone else.
      2 used, paid cash, 2.5 years written off in a collision (other drivers fault)
      3 used, paid cash, 10.5 years parted out at 465000 km
      4 used, partially financed, 3 years, repair costs escalated, really wasn't a smart purchase in the first place.
      5 New, financed, 2.5 years so far

      Wife
      1 used, paid cash, 3 years, written off in collision(other drivers fault).
      2 used, paid cash with mostly insurance money, 6+ years, sold for new car after repair costs escalated and she wanted more trunk space for work reasons, the only car we didn't really need to replace.
      3 New, financed, 1.5 years so far

      None of the written off cars were planned to be replaced.

      My truck is upside down, but not by much now. Used trucks hold a lot of value up here and realistically I will be out of that hole before the warranty is up.
      We plan on paying down both car loans significantly in the next year.
      Both vehicles are also base models that met our needs/wants at modest prices. I have basically a fleet spec truck with carpet.
      Neither has planned replacement timeline.


      G
      Last edited by D_B_Jetta; 07-24-2019 at 10:41 AM.
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    4. Member adrew's Avatar
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      07-24-2019 10:25 AM #103
      Quote Originally Posted by Karl_1340 View Post
      https://www.wesbank.co.za/wesbankcoz...de-in-your-car
      When customers sign a vehicle finance agreement for 72 months, their breakeven point only arrives at between 48 and 52 months into the contract.

      I remember reading that on a 60 month loan, your breakeven point is around the 3 year mark, but for a 6 year loan, that breakeven point moves to 4.5-5 years into the loan, and it gets worse, the longer the loan term.
      Depends on what you buy. If it's an Escalade or something, maybe.

      I bought our Corolla for about $500 under invoice, financed it for 72 at 0% and rolled in $2k of negative equity from a car we wanted to dump. I haven't paid any extra on it and what we owe after 2 1/2 years is within a couple hundred bucks of the KBB "Good" trade-in value.
      Improving the signal-to-noise ratio

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      07-24-2019 11:39 AM #104
      Quote Originally Posted by adrew View Post
      Depends on what you buy. If it's an Escalade or something, maybe.

      I bought our Corolla for about $500 under invoice, financed it for 72 at 0% and rolled in $2k of negative equity from a car we wanted to dump. I haven't paid any extra on it and what we owe after 2 1/2 years is within a couple hundred bucks of the KBB "Good" trade-in value.
      Yup, I was above water in a Tacoma in about 18 months, even faster with a Tundra, mainly because lots of them were being sent to USA due to the weak Canuck $, both 0 down and no negative equity.

    6. Member Elite_Deforce's Avatar
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      07-24-2019 11:46 PM #105
      Quote Originally Posted by D_B_Jetta View Post
      Fair, by the numbers it looks off,

      1 used, paid cash, 3 years written off when lent to someone else.
      2 used, paid cash, 2.5 years written off in a collision (other drivers fault)
      3 used, paid cash, 10.5 years parted out at 465000 km
      4 used, partially financed, 3 years, repair costs escalated, really wasn't a smart purchase in the first place.
      5 New, financed, 2.5 years so far

      Wife
      1 used, paid cash, 3 years, written off in collision(other drivers fault).
      2 used, paid cash with mostly insurance money, 6+ years, sold for new car after repair costs escalated and she wanted more trunk space for work reasons, the only car we didn't really need to replace.
      3 New, financed, 1.5 years so far

      None of the written off cars were planned to be replaced.

      My truck is upside down, but not by much now. Used trucks hold a lot of value up here and realistically I will be out of that hole before the warranty is up.
      We plan on paying down both car loans significantly in the next year.
      Both vehicles are also base models that met our needs/wants at modest prices. I have basically a fleet spec truck with carpet.
      Neither has planned replacement timeline.


      G
      Your number 3 car (465000 still impressive, though) is the only thing that really qualifies.

      The rest are below-average term, if anything.
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      I find it ironic that long time Euro brand fans would assume long term reliability issues would destroy any love of a unique product.

    7. Member Egz's Avatar
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      07-25-2019 08:09 AM #106
      Quote Originally Posted by Elite_Deforce View Post
      The rest are below-average term, if anything.
      I'm a chronic vehicle trader that I am trying to break (use to trade every 2 year), so I'm curious what is considered long term? Is is years, miles, or both? And how much?

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      07-25-2019 08:13 AM #107
      Lol at everybody racing in to brag about their low interest rate loans

      Nobody ever bought a car at its lowest price of the year with subsidized financing. Especially not anything reasonably desirable. You paid for the right to say you have that low rate, whether it was the only option at the time or not.

      I’d concentrate on cost/mile, annual cost of ownership, 5 year cost of ownership, etc

      And if it won’t kill you, buy what you like. It’s expensive taking a bath on a trade/sale because you bought a deal more than a car, and decided later that you hated it.

    9. Member madrussian's Avatar
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      07-25-2019 08:39 AM #108
      Quote Originally Posted by JackStraw79 View Post
      Lol at everybody racing in to brag about their low interest rate loans

      Nobody ever bought a car at its lowest price of the year with subsidized financing. Especially not anything reasonably desirable. You paid for the right to say you have that low rate, whether it was the only option at the time or not.

      I’d concentrate on cost/mile, annual cost of ownership, 5 year cost of ownership, etc

      And if it won’t kill you, buy what you like. It’s expensive taking a bath on a trade/sale because you bought a deal more than a car, and decided later that you hated it.
      what are you on about, no they didnt?

      i split hold back on our ford explorer, had thousands in rebates, and still got 0% for 72 months. everyone assumes that if you chose low interest rate you forego all rebates. while that is sometimes common, thats not always the case and to assume we all dont know how to negotiate is ignorant.

      cost/mile is a terrible metric because id be out buying used chevy volts vs a 911 turbo.

    10. Senior Member Sporin's Avatar
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      07-25-2019 09:05 AM #109
      Unless you are buying a car that a manufacturer can't get rid of, 0% is a lot harder to find than it was 4, 6, 8 years ago. Best we could get on our slightly used RAV4 was 3.9% and we both have 800+ credit. When we bought our Prius in 2010 we got 0% with lower credit scores.

      Times change.

    11. Senior Member 6cylVWguy's Avatar
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      07-25-2019 09:15 AM #110
      Quote Originally Posted by madrussian View Post
      cost/mile is a terrible metric because id be out buying used chevy volts vs a 911 turbo.
      Totally agree on this. It's a metric for people who don't like cars or are looking for something completely disposable. Furthermore, car folks realize that costs for an individual car car differ wildly based on the car and the person. I don't daily drive anything---I work from home. So other than random errands and going to the gym, I don't need to drive anywhere. My per year costs are much lower on any given car vs the same person who has the regular commute. Plus, I have several vehicles, so the per vehicle mileage (and thus costs) are much lower. I have read tons a horror stories about costs associated with the e9x M3. I've read threads on here where people say that you need to always have thousands in savings to be ready to throw at the car at any given time. Repair costs for for me have generally been <$500/yr for the last 4 (!) years. But if I went off the people posting online who are reporting $3k repair bills, I'm not sure I'd even own the car. So yeah, cost/mile is something that's retrospectively interesting and an individualized metric best used to determine if long-term ownership is worth it to the individual.

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      07-25-2019 09:23 AM #111
      Quote Originally Posted by madrussian View Post
      what are you on about, no they didnt?

      i split hold back on our ford explorer, had thousands in rebates, and still got 0% for 72 months. everyone assumes that if you chose low interest rate you forego all rebates. while that is sometimes common, thats not always the case and to assume we all dont know how to negotiate is ignorant.

      cost/mile is a terrible metric because id be out buying used chevy volts vs a 911 turbo.
      Yikes. I said lowest price of the YEAR, not day or month. I’m not assuming anything about rebates. I get how it works and I’m not talking about “paid” literally. Dealers don’t have the most rebate, trunk money, bonus money, etc available at the same time as 0%. That is marketed different months. So you think that dealer sold you that trim Explorer at a lower purchase price than every other buyer that YEAR?

      Cost/mile is not a terrible metric because you are using it in reference to your budget and comparing it to similar purchase options. Not two completely different cars like your irrelevant example.

    13. Member Mike!'s Avatar
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      07-25-2019 09:35 AM #112
      Quote Originally Posted by JackStraw79 View Post
      Yikes. I said lowest price of the YEAR, not day or month. I’m not assuming anything about rebates. I get how it works and I’m not talking about “paid” literally. Dealers don’t have the most rebate, trunk money, bonus money, etc available at the same time as 0%. That is marketed different months. So you think that dealer sold you that trim Explorer at a lower purchase price than every other buyer that YEAR?

      Cost/mile is not a terrible metric because you are using it in reference to your budget and comparing it to similar purchase options. Not two completely different cars like your irrelevant example.
      A new car is always going to get cheaper (well, maybe not a GT_ Porsche at MSRP). You'll never get a better deal on a 2018 Model anything in 2017 or 2018 than you can on a leftover one right now. Just one example: brand new 2018 C-Max with 31 miles on it for $16,999 (sticker $24k+)
      https://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-...Type=spotlight

      End of model year = cheaper. Discontinued model = cheaper. Buying a new model soon after it's out = more expensive. At least on the surface. That doesn't always play out in total cost of ownership by the time you lose subsidized financing and your "new" car has already depreciated two model years. Still, it's not remotely useful to focus on the fact that your new car will get cheaper if you wait. That's a "well duh" moment. You have to focus on whether you're getting a good deal at the time you buy it.

      Some people have flexibility to kick the can and wait for the end of model year clearout, and they're not seeking a rare color, transmission, or trim, so they can roll the dice a bit. That doesn't apply to people wanting a 6MT SS in red before they're gone, or people who had their car totaled and need something this month.

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      07-25-2019 09:45 AM #113
      Oddly enough, the cheapest time to LEASE a 2018 Mazda 3 in Canada was when they first came out. I looked at them in September 2017 and they had 0% leases and the highest residual. Kind of bizarre.

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      07-25-2019 10:28 AM #114
      Quote Originally Posted by Mike! View Post
      A new car is always going to get cheaper (well, maybe not a GT_ Porsche at MSRP). You'll never get a better deal on a 2018 Model anything in 2017 or 2018 than you can on a leftover one right now. Just one example: brand new 2018 C-Max with 31 miles on it for $16,999 (sticker $24k+)
      https://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-...Type=spotlight

      End of model year = cheaper. Discontinued model = cheaper. Buying a new model soon after it's out = more expensive. At least on the surface. That doesn't always play out in total cost of ownership by the time you lose subsidized financing and your "new" car has already depreciated two model years. Still, it's not remotely useful to focus on the fact that your new car will get cheaper if you wait. That's a "well duh" moment. You have to focus on whether you're getting a good deal at the time you buy it.

      Some people have flexibility to kick the can and wait for the end of model year clearout, and they're not seeking a rare color, transmission, or trim, so they can roll the dice a bit. That doesn't apply to people wanting a 6MT SS in red before they're gone, or people who had their car totaled and need something this month.
      This. Aside from the ATS, last four cars were purchased just before a new model came out so we got the benefit of subsidized financing and the dealership discounting the car. For example:

      1. BRZ was $3,000 off and 0% interest
      2. Miata was $4,000 off and 0% interest.
      3. Golf R was right before the 2018 MYs were scheduled to hit the lots (7 speed DSG and digital dash) so we negotiated $2,500 off and 0.9% on a 36 month lease.
      4. 2020 G90s are scheduled to drop this autumn, so we negotiated $3,000 off a CPO and the banks came in fairly aggressive at 3.9%.

      As Mike pointed out, maybe we could've gotten more if we waited, but the deal was already excellent compared to the new model years coming in and the timing worked out for us.

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      07-25-2019 11:11 AM #115
      Quote Originally Posted by Sporin View Post
      Unless you are buying a car that a manufacturer can't get rid of, 0% is a lot harder to find than it was 4, 6, 8 years ago. Best we could get on our slightly used RAV4 was 3.9% and we both have 800+ credit. When we bought our Prius in 2010 we got 0% with lower credit scores.

      Times change.
      Used is usually a little tougher.

      In our area they have 0% for 5 years on the C-HR, Camry, Camry Hybrid, Highlander and Sienna and for 6 years on the Tundra. They have 1.9% on the Tacoma and 2.9% on the new Corolla. A couple models even have financing plus cash back.

      I have looked at lightly used cars a few times and the better incentives on new ones bring the two prices close enough that I always end up going new.
      Improving the signal-to-noise ratio

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      07-25-2019 11:47 AM #116
      Quote Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
      Oddly enough, the cheapest time to LEASE a 2018 Mazda 3 in Canada was when they first came out. I looked at them in September 2017 and they had 0% leases and the highest residual. Kind of bizarre.
      I forget exactly when I was looking but I noticed that too. Leasing at the start of the model year with ~60% or greater residual was a better deal than their blowouts on the prior year. Pretty cheap to lease a new 3, pretty well equipped even in GX trim, for ~$150 biweekly taxes-in.

      I want to say I was looking at the start of model year 2016 in late 2015, before we leased the Edge.

    18. Senior Member AZGolf's Avatar
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      07-25-2019 12:18 PM #117
      Quote Originally Posted by adrew View Post
      Used is usually a little tougher.
      Same thing I was going to point out. It doesn't matter if the used car is 3 days old and has 17 miles on it, once it's been titled, it is a used car and the manufacturer doesn't support it as a new vehicle sale. The ultra low interest rates are typically due to manufacturer subsidies to specifically move new cars, not used cars. They don't have enough money to subsidize the used cars nor a reason to, since the manufacturer only makes money from getting new vehicles shipped to dealers.

    19. Senior Member Sporin's Avatar
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      07-25-2019 12:43 PM #118
      Quote Originally Posted by adrew View Post
      Used is usually a little tougher.

      In our area they have 0% for 5 years on the C-HR, Camry, Camry Hybrid, Highlander and Sienna and for 6 years on the Tundra. They have 1.9% on the Tacoma and 2.9% on the new Corolla. A couple models even have financing plus cash back.

      I have looked at lightly used cars a few times and the better incentives on new ones bring the two prices close enough that I always end up going new.
      For sure, but still, they aren't handing out 0% like candy anymore unless they are really trying to move a model.

      When I was shopping, a new Camry or RAV4 was 3.9% from Toyota and the same 3.9-4.9 from every credit union I contacted. So 3.9% on used was as good as it was going to get (plus saving $10k+ over a new one)

    20. Member madrussian's Avatar
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      07-25-2019 12:54 PM #119
      Quote Originally Posted by JackStraw79 View Post
      Yikes. I said lowest price of the YEAR, not day or month. I’m not assuming anything about rebates. I get how it works and I’m not talking about “paid” literally. Dealers don’t have the most rebate, trunk money, bonus money, etc available at the same time as 0%. That is marketed different months. So you think that dealer sold you that trim Explorer at a lower purchase price than every other buyer that YEAR?

      Cost/mile is not a terrible metric because you are using it in reference to your budget and comparing it to similar purchase options. Not two completely different cars like your irrelevant example.
      again, you're generalizing. i know this is hard to imagine, but mfg's adjust residuals, rebates, and financing offers based on sales volume for a given quarter in hopes of influencing share pricing and earnings calls. so despite what you think, you very well could have lower financing rates and rebates at once at one point in the year vs another point in the year despite the interest offered.

      i never said i bought the least expensive car of the year, but i can assure you i was well in the bottom of the range of deals given out. you realize someone has to be the least expensive deal, or the deal they give away at damn near even to hit a volume kickback from a mfg, get an allocation, etc.

      ask some of the gm's and sales guys that post here and they'll let you know they've let cars go at cost, etc. to get that.

      and yes cost per mile is a horrendous even when comparing similar items because all thats doing is calculating for mpg, he who gets the most wins.

    21. Moderator Oliver@triplezoom's Avatar
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      07-25-2019 02:45 PM #120
      Quote Originally Posted by AZGolf View Post
      Same thing I was going to point out. It doesn't matter if the used car is 3 days old and has 17 miles on it, once it's been titled, it is a used car and the manufacturer doesn't support it as a new vehicle sale. The ultra low interest rates are typically due to manufacturer subsidies to specifically move new cars, not used cars. They don't have enough money to subsidize the used cars nor a reason to, since the manufacturer only makes money from getting new vehicles shipped to dealers.
      Unless it's a demo, at least in some cases. Was able to get a massive discount and a super cheap interest rate on my JCW despite it being "used".

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      07-25-2019 03:17 PM #121
      Quote Originally Posted by madrussian View Post
      and yes cost per mile is a horrendous even when comparing similar items because all thats doing is calculating for mpg, he who gets the most wins.
      No. Cost per mile/year/etc includes fuel, maintenance, downpayment, monthly payments, warranties, and insurance premiums. It can include lease/trade-in costs as well if evaluating longer time lines.

      The whole package of what it costs you to own and operate the vehicle is what's important to evaluate, not "I got a 0% loan so I am the smartest financial decision-maker in the world".

    23. Moderator Oliver@triplezoom's Avatar
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      07-25-2019 03:40 PM #122
      Quote Originally Posted by JackStraw79 View Post
      The whole package of what it costs you to own and operate the vehicle is what's important to evaluate, not "I got a 0% loan so I am the smartest financial decision-maker in the world".
      Did anyone say that?

    24. Member madrussian's Avatar
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      07-25-2019 04:35 PM #123
      Quote Originally Posted by JackStraw79 View Post
      No. Cost per mile/year/etc includes fuel, maintenance, downpayment, monthly payments, warranties, and insurance premiums. It can include lease/trade-in costs as well if evaluating longer time lines.

      The whole package of what it costs you to own and operate the vehicle is what's important to evaluate, not "I got a 0% loan so I am the smartest financial decision-maker in the world".
      huh, who ever said anything remotely close to that?

      you may use those metrics to figure out cost per mile. doesnt mean everyone does.

      pretty sure fuel, maintenance and insurance aren't part of an auto loan which in case you didnt notice is what this thread was pertaining to.

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      07-25-2019 06:39 PM #124
      Quote Originally Posted by madrussian View Post
      huh, who ever said anything remotely close to that?

      you may use those metrics to figure out cost per mile. doesnt mean everyone does.

      pretty sure fuel, maintenance and insurance aren't part of an auto loan which in case you didnt notice is what this thread was pertaining to.
      The thread includes people arguing the financial sense for or against taking lengthy loans. I am contending that the interest paid can be a small part of the complete financial picture of owning the car and people are in a bunch of different situations, so it's funny when people proudly share the terms of their subsidized loan like it means something. Like "I may have taken a 7 year loan, but I'm not one of those people."

      Buying the wrong car and/or the wrong price at 0% interest can still be a crap decision. Buying the right car at the right price at 3% can be a great decision.

      Does that make sense to you, or is the interest rate the only thing worth considering, so everyone should keep telling us the terms of their subsidized loans? It's not a big deal, I just think if you are going to talk about the financial aspects of car ownership, people should think about the whole picture. Depreciation can cost a lot, and high depreciation usually goes hand and hand with old models, undesirable models, and highly discounted/subsidized loan models. Not to mention you may have to drive around in an inferior product every day.

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      07-25-2019 07:21 PM #125
      Jack Strawman at work...

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