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    Thread: Regular Unleaded vs Premeum

    1. Junior Member
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      07-24-2019 09:22 PM #26
      Quote Originally Posted by beaumisbro View Post
      I don't recall where I read/heard it, but locating the port injectors should be fairly easy on the engine.
      I can take a look later today.
      If someone has access to ETKA, that might be helpful too.

      I did call my local VW/Audi shop and they confirmed (US Market) DLRA/DLRB motors are DI only.
      I'd like to add, after research on my Audi, reading engineering articles, talking to mechanics, including removing the manifold and cleaning all 16 intake valves and ports myself is that carbon build up is actually coming from more than 1 source:

      - oily vapour from the crankcase ( people use so called catch-cans with limited sucess)
      - oil leaking down the valve stem - this is the black shiny varnish on the stem
      - combustion products that swirl (scavenge) back in to the air intake ports - this is due the the valve timing overlap between exhaust and intake valve opening angles. I am not sure, but i believe the timing is different on EU vs US and the engine in EU is lean burn, so the combustion products are not the same either ( low sulfur fuel is used extensively in Eu and also now in california, but I dont think this is the major problem. Its those combustion particles and the oily vapor that causes the build up over time - it coats the walls of the intake ports 5-8 mm thick, not just the backs of the valves.

      I used only top tier Shell 91 Octane from new and it made no difference in both our cars - 2008 S5 and 2010 passat both had to be cleaned at 75K miles. This is using CA gas.

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    3. 07-24-2019 09:47 PM #27
      Early direct injection engine sure did have its share of problems, carbon build up is on top of the list. Thats why the Japanese stay away from D I engines at the early stages. Some of the carbon build up issues has been resolved with oil mist separators but the problem still exist to a certain extent. In my opinion, low octane, minimum detergent level or dirty gas can certainly add to the carbon build up problem but the problem stems from the original design and if you feed it dirty fuel which creates incomplete combustion cycles, take short trips often, long idles time or you baby the car too much, your engine will get dirtier faster.
      Last edited by The G Man; 07-25-2019 at 08:48 AM.

    4. Member
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      07-25-2019 12:32 PM #28
      Quote Originally Posted by chrisMk6TDi View Post
      I’m confused about this... I know the US R does not have MPI, but I I thought that the Arteon’s motor did? Do you have a source?
      if Audis don't have it, VW certainly won't have it.
      '15 Passat SEL (NOS bought April '17 w/ 60 miles on the clock)
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      Bought back: '10 Jetta TDI sedan manual, '12 Passat SE (roof and Nav)

    5. Member
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      07-25-2019 12:37 PM #29
      Quote Originally Posted by beaumisbro View Post
      I don't recall where I read/heard it, but locating the port injectors should be fairly easy on the engine.
      I can take a look later today.
      If someone has access to ETKA, that might be helpful too.

      I did call my local VW/Audi shop and they confirmed (US Market) DLRA/DLRB motors are DI only.
      MPI has been a common HP gain or E85 compatible mod in the R world for quite some time, even adaptable to the EA888 1.8t too boot.

      I just wish someone would offer an "eco MPI kit" for those that want it more for preventable maintenance than crazy HP numbers.
      '15 Passat SEL (NOS bought April '17 w/ 60 miles on the clock)
      '17 Alltrack SE

      Bought back: '10 Jetta TDI sedan manual, '12 Passat SE (roof and Nav)

    6. 07-25-2019 07:35 PM #30
      1) When a vehicle is newer, it Typically can run of LESS octane, due to the fact that almost no build-up has occured in the engine.

      2) However, sea level vs altitude - Sea level requires MORE octane (more air available) than say 5,000 feet (less air means a more enriched air/fuel ratio) hence, may be able to run with less octane.

      Example: At 5,000 feet, a non turbo car looses approx. 15% power (3% for every 1,000 feet) - basic laws of physics. However, a turbo vehicle (such as your ARTEON) not so really affected, because the TURBO is cramming air into the engine.

      Anyway, with a turbo, always may be a safe bet to run the higher octane. Your vehicle does have a 9.3:1 compression ratio (lower because it is turbocharged) so you MAY BE ABLE to get by on 89 octane. I would run 91 (or 93 where it is available)

      What's a little preventative precaution compared to the cost of an engine?

      You could always install a methanol system - it would allow you to run multiple levels of octane; however, this is not a cheap way to go. It is always safer to run a little rich (more gas, less air) than lean (less gas, more air) LEAN ENGINES can burn a hole in your pistons.

      Hope this helps

      BTW . . . how do you like the ARTEON? Have yet to see one on the road.

    7. n00b
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      07-25-2019 07:52 PM #31
      For what it’s worth, my 2000 Passat stated 91 octane for fuel. I ran the car for a month on 87 and got an avg MPG of 30. I then ran it with 91 octane for a month and got an avg MPG of 38, so I was getting an extra 128 miles to a tank on 91 vs. 87. So the entire time I owned my 2000 Passat, I used 91 octane only as it was cheaper in the long run, though more expensive in the short run as far as cost per tank. I’d say do a month of each and monitor your mileage and fuel consumption and see what’s better.

    8. n00b
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      07-25-2019 08:59 PM #32
      I can only get 87, 89, and 93. (Raleigh, NC area)

      Can I get buy half 89 and half 93 to make 91?

      I've got a 2004 Passat Wagon V6.

      Thanks in advance.

    9. 07-25-2019 09:18 PM #33
      In my Google searches, I discovered that Sunoco gas stations in the east coast supposedly have 91 octane gas, but I have yet to confirm this in person.

    10. Member chrisMk6TDi's Avatar
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      07-25-2019 09:25 PM #34
      Quote Originally Posted by buffym View Post
      In my Google searches, I discovered that Sunoco gas stations in the east coast supposedly have 91 octane gas, but I have yet to confirm this in person.
      Yes- every Sunoco I’ve been to in MA has 87,89,91,93 octane.
      ‘19 Arteon SE 4Motion Urano Gray
      ‘19 SBM Tiguan S 4Motion with DAP

    11. n00b
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      07-25-2019 09:27 PM #35
      Premium gasoline burns slower insuring better combustion 87 unleaded burns faster for incomplete combustion plus you get better gas mileage on premium

    12. 07-25-2019 09:42 PM #36
      Quote Originally Posted by buffym View Post
      In my Google searches, I discovered that Sunoco gas stations in the east coast supposedly have 91 octane gas, but I have yet to confirm this in person.
      Yes...all Sunoco stations in NJ and nearby states offer 91 on the pumps...and the stations seem to be on every corner,....Easy for Sunoco...custom blending from just 2 main tanks...Besides, it's the fuel of Nascar...has to be good...Ha!

    13. 07-25-2019 09:50 PM #37
      Anyone using anything less than the highest octane available in a turbo charged engine, is an idiot.
      You don't save money using regular in a high compression situation like a turbocharged engine, because it get much worse power and therefore mileage, with regular.
      Premium will cost you less because you will use much less of it, with more advanced ignition timing and therefore more power.

      But what I read is that it is the TSI engine, so has direct injection, (not dual injection), and then gasoline octane is less important.
      Last edited by kirk_augustin; 07-25-2019 at 10:09 PM.

    14. n00b
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      07-25-2019 09:55 PM #38
      I have a turbo Jetta GLI turbo that has a 10.3:1 compression ratio. If I were going to the office 24 miles away during the week, I used 87 octane, it was cheaper. If I used premium for "spirited driving" then it's a 93 octane (and preferably a no-alcohol gasoline, at a 20% higher cost in my area). I also had a 85' GLI Jetta with a 10.5:1. The differences are immediate: more power, greater fuel efficiencies, bigger grin index. Your motor is between needing the low 87 (with 15 alcohol) and premium 93 (with alcohol). "Yes" you will see a huge difference with "spirited driving", more power, and better fuel economy so using a higher grade of gasoline may help with efficiency but you may want to do some comparisons per mile. My thoughts: if you are driving a grind to go to work and back, use the 87 octane and live with it. It works in an int long run you may save 1-3% in fuel costs. If you want to be "Johnny-Hammer the throttle and grin", use what is recommended for your motor as stated by your gas cap. But...that's a big but, the good gas will want you to hammer the motor more and you'll see a loss in $/mile. There are some articles I've read over the years that say, "The cost of 93 octane results with more power and lower fuel efficiency an 87 octane if your combustion ration is less than 10/1", or some such crap. They had graphs/charts/data to prove their point, so I believe them. And, you never know when you need to hammer the throttle to get out of a bad situation, so there's that. Since then I've been retired, the only gas I put in my Turbo VW is premium as my mileage is much lower and I tend to baby my motor. Remember: for every 5% of alcohol in your gasoline you can expect a 3-4% loss in performance.

    15. Junior Member
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      07-25-2019 10:16 PM #39
      But you don't have any control over the "richness" as the engine management sytem works to hold, lambda, the stoichiometric air fuel ratio, constant. The knock sensor also detects "pinging" and automatically retards the ignition to prevent damage, witth corresponding loss of power. Lean burn requires a different ignition map based upon the fuel available in the market in to which the car is sold. In the US, if I am not mistaken, not many engine are lean burn because the fuel quality is not good enough to support that combustion type, namely stratified injection. Thats my undertsanding for waht its worth.

    16. Semi-n00b
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      07-26-2019 08:05 PM #40
      I'll be using Premium after the first tank. I asked the dealership if they will be pumping premium fuel in my Arteon when it arrives and they said no and that they would only be putting 87 Octane in it so I'll be running 87 Octane for at least a half a tank before I pump some 93 Octane into it.

    17. Junior Member snowj720's Avatar
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      07-27-2019 12:09 AM #41
      My Alltrack is rated for 87, but I do 93 and even throw a couple gallons of e85 in (which levels out the cost and in theory bumps the octane a bit). 87 isn't going to kill your engine, but why not give it the best fuel possible? I paid about half for my AT that you did for your vehicle and I'm willing to give it at least 91 for longevity. Why not afford your ride the same piece of mind? Unless it's a lease, then do what you want. The next guy can deal with it.
      2017 AT DSG with NSPM, HPS intake, BMS wheel spacers, Rally Armor mud flaps, Euro mirrors, Roof rack/fairing, rear bumper/cargo plate, weathermate cargo protector....so far
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    18. Member
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      08-13-2019 05:17 PM #42
      Quote Originally Posted by zackiedawg View Post
      A nice compromise is to find a gas station local to you that offers mid-grade premium gas. Virtually all stations have 87 (regular), 89 (mid), and 93/94 (premium) octanes. A few stations add a 4th grade - at 91 octane...it's the low end of premium and matches the fuel recommendation for the Arteon. I always use premium, but I have a station that is on my commute home from work that has the 91 option, and I'll use them when possible.
      I got all excited when I pulled into the highway rest stop for my first fill-up and the brand was Sunoco: both Top Tier *and* 91!
      Except that the 91 was only 2 cents less than 93, yet 20 cents more than 89.
      So if you have another minute or so, will the gas mix sufficiently in the tank such that splitting the fill-up between 89 and 93 would be the same as 91?

      And in case this horse isn't sufficient dead already, I don't think this has been posted here yet:
      https://newsroom.aaa.com/wp-content/...rt-FINAL-2.pdf

    19. Junior Member
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      08-13-2019 05:31 PM #43
      Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan Shefftz View Post
      I got all excited when I pulled into the highway rest stop for my first fill-up and the brand was Sunoco: both Top Tier *and* 91!
      Except that the 91 was only 2 cents less than 93, yet 20 cents more than 89.
      So if you have another minute or so, will the gas mix sufficiently in the tank such that splitting the fill-up between 89 and 93 would be the same as 91?

      And in case this horse isn't sufficient dead already, I don't think this has been posted here yet:
      https://newsroom.aaa.com/wp-content/...rt-FINAL-2.pdf
      IIRC, the gas stations only carry 89 & 93 in the tanks. The two are mixed 50:50 to deliver 91 at the pump.

    20. Member
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      08-13-2019 05:45 PM #44
      Quote Originally Posted by beaumisbro View Post
      IIRC, the gas stations only carry 89 & 93 in the tanks. The two are mixed 50:50 to deliver 91 at the pump.
      And then Sunoco apparently applies a 2:20 price mix to that 50:50 fuel mix!

    21. 08-14-2019 08:33 AM #45
      Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan Shefftz View Post
      I got all excited when I pulled into the highway rest stop for my first fill-up and the brand was Sunoco: both Top Tier *and* 91!
      Except that the 91 was only 2 cents less than 93, yet 20 cents more than 89.
      So if you have another minute or so, will the gas mix sufficiently in the tank such that splitting the fill-up between 89 and 93 would be the same as 91?

      And in case this horse isn't sufficient dead already, I don't think this has been posted here yet:
      https://newsroom.aaa.com/wp-content/...rt-FINAL-2.pdf
      So what if it doesn't mix well, it will average out to about 90-92 octane give or take.

    22. Member
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      08-14-2019 09:42 AM #46
      The price gap is definitely greater here between 89, 91, and 93. My local station is at $2.83 for 89, $2.93 for 91, and $3.13 for 93...so it's about 10 cents more than 89 but 20 cents cheaper than 93...I know in the short run, 20 cents isn't all that much - but it still feels good to save $2.50-$3 a tank and still get the recommended octane level in the car. Gas is fairly expensive in S Florida, but I have the advantage of working and living right across a county line - my home county has much higher gas prices than the county I work in - so just filling up on the south side of the county line will save me 20-30 cents a gallon...throw in the 91 octane which I can't get in any stations in my home city, and the difference can be as much as 50 cents a gallon.

      I don't think I'd bother with 91 if 93 was only 2 cents more. Though mixing grades would work if you were willing to go through the process, it's more time and trouble than it would be worth to me, especially as I wouldn't want to put all of one octane in, then the other half with the other - I think it would be better to mix them a little more proportionately, which would require shutting off every few gallons and switching again.
      _____
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    23. Member ice4life's Avatar
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      08-14-2019 11:58 AM #47
      To add to the complication, I live in Denver where the elevation is about 5600 feet. I grew up on the east coast (NY, VA, FL) where the gas grades were 87, 91, 93. Here, the grades are 85, 87, 91 due to the higher elevation. I put 91 in because it recommends premium. I know some of the new VW turbo engines are running on regular, but they are tuned differently.

      I don't like paying extra for premium, but I find the gas mileage is relatively good enough to offset the difference in price. For example, even though the Atlas we were driving for about 1,000 miles ran on regular, it was horrendous around town on gas which made it effectively more expensive to operate.

    24. Member
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      08-14-2019 01:45 PM #48
      Interesting article regarding this subject:

      https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...dodge-charger/
      Previous VAG vehicles - 2017 Golf Alltrack, 2015 Golf R, 2012 Passat TDI, 2000 Audi A4

      http://badges.fuelly.com/images/sig-us/847807.png

    25. Member rcprato's Avatar
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      08-16-2019 02:38 PM #49
      Quote Originally Posted by SDArteon View Post
      I'd like to add, after research on my Audi, reading engineering articles, talking to mechanics, including removing the manifold and cleaning all 16 intake valves and ports myself is that carbon build up is actually coming from more than 1 source:

      - oily vapour from the crankcase ( people use so called catch-cans with limited sucess)
      - oil leaking down the valve stem - this is the black shiny varnish on the stem
      - combustion products that swirl (scavenge) back in to the air intake ports - this is due the the valve timing overlap between exhaust and intake valve opening angles. I am not sure, but i believe the timing is different on EU vs US and the engine in EU is lean burn, so the combustion products are not the same either ( low sulfur fuel is used extensively in Eu and also now in california, but I dont think this is the major problem. Its those combustion particles and the oily vapor that causes the build up over time - it coats the walls of the intake ports 5-8 mm thick, not just the backs of the valves.

      I used only top tier Shell 91 Octane from new and it made no difference in both our cars - 2008 S5 and 2010 passat both had to be cleaned at 75K miles. This is using CA gas.
      With DI design the injector is spraying directly into the combustion chamber I believe, only air is going through the intake valve and because the gas is not vaporized with the air in the intake manifold before going through the open intake valve(s) the cleaning agents in the gasoline can't do their job and clean carbon deposits off the intake valves.

      Most of the carbon deposits on the intake valves is from the crankcase evaporation system sending the oily vapors from the crankcase to the combustion chamber to be burned before being released into the environment.

      I have had luck with reducing carbon build up in upper intake by using the Ravenol VMO VW Spec oil, seems to have significantly less burn off than Castrol that is used by dealers and Mobil 1 you can get at Walmart.

    26. Member rcprato's Avatar
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      08-16-2019 04:22 PM #50
      https://youtu.be/LjJSbHxIvnM


      Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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