VWVortex.com - Move over X3M, 2020 Lincoln Aviator PHEV has 'almost' 500 horsepower...
Username or Email Address
Do you already have an account?
Forgot your password?
  • Log in or Sign up

    VWVortex


    The Car Lounge
    Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
    Results 26 to 50 of 57

    Thread: Move over X3M, 2020 Lincoln Aviator PHEV has 'almost' 500 horsepower...

    1. Member Mike!'s Avatar
      Join Date
      Jun 17th, 2002
      Location
      Ontario & Ohio
      Posts
      19,941
      Vehicles
      2015 Fusion Wagon Allroad Turbo
      08-13-2019 09:48 AM #26
      Quote Originally Posted by AZGolf View Post
      Well they have the Durango over on the Dodge side as far as having expensive 3-row SUV covered, and they have the Trailcat Grand Cherokee as far as expensive ridiculously high horsepower SUVs are concerned, albeit 2-row, but I think the Grand Wagoneer is their answer in terms of a Jeep badged vehicle that might be considered competition in the 3-row luxury SUV space. It just isn't out yet, with expectations for a 2022 launch.
      Grand Wagoneer launch has been "three years away" for the last decade or so. I believe 2022 actually could happen and line up with a significant platform update for the JGC too rather than being a new model on an old platform, but the point that Jeep's been leaving this segment on the table for years is valid.

      Mind you I think even Grand Wagoneer would be more Explorer Platinum than Aviator. I don't know how Jeep could get quite to Aviator level within their brand. Aviator interior is still something else.

    2. Remove Advertisements

      Advertisements
       

    3. Chili Bigot Seabird's Avatar
      Join Date
      Feb 8th, 2002
      Location
      Secret underground lair with machine gun turrets
      Posts
      19,148
      Vehicles
      392+485=LOL
      08-13-2019 09:56 AM #27
      Quote Originally Posted by AZGolf View Post
      Well they have the Durango over on the Dodge side as far as having expensive 3-row SUV covered, and they have the Trailcat Grand Cherokee as far as expensive ridiculously high horsepower SUVs are concerned, albeit 2-row, but I think the Grand Wagoneer is their answer in terms of a Jeep badged vehicle that might be considered competition in the 3-row luxury SUV space. It just isn't out yet, with expectations for a 2022 launch.
      I don't think that the Durango is the high-end or expensive option. That lineup runs about the same cost as the JGC. The Durango SRT is actually cheaper than the Jeep version. I suspect that actual transaction prices for the Jeeps are higher, too. Additionally, I have never seen anyone make the argument that the Durango is the upgrade path from the GC.

      I know that the Wagoneer and Grand Wagoneer are supposedly on their way, but the dates keep shifting is and there is no real discernible information about them. In the meantime, the Aviator might make for a compelling conquest sale.

      And what is the "Trailcat"? Did you mean Trackhawk?
      Last edited by Seabird; 08-13-2019 at 10:11 AM.
      Quote Originally Posted by Col. David Crockett
      I told the people of my district, that, if they saw fit to re-elect me, I would serve them as faithfully as I had done; but, if not, they might go to Hell, and I would go to Texas.

    4. Member TangoRed's Avatar
      Join Date
      Sep 7th, 2005
      Location
      Seattle, WA
      Posts
      11,491
      08-13-2019 10:43 AM #28
      Quote Originally Posted by Mike! View Post
      Grand Wagoneer launch has been "three years away" for the last decade or so. I believe 2022 actually could happen and line up with a significant platform update for the JGC too rather than being a new model on an old platform, but the point that Jeep's been leaving this segment on the table for years is valid.

      Mind you I think even Grand Wagoneer would be more Explorer Platinum than Aviator. I don't know how Jeep could get quite to Aviator level within their brand. Aviator interior is still something else.
      The good thing is now FCA has cleared the way for the GW with the plant moves so there's some evidence that 2022 could happen.
      Quote Originally Posted by Doug Butabi View Post
      And on the tenth day of the two thousand fifteenth year, TCL finds out about rich people.

    5. Senior Member bzcat's Avatar
      Join Date
      Nov 26th, 2001
      Location
      Los Angeles
      Posts
      23,898
      08-13-2019 01:00 PM #29
      Quote Originally Posted by Seabird View Post
      I don't think that the Durango is the high-end or expensive option. That lineup runs about the same cost as the JGC. The Durango SRT is actually cheaper than the Jeep version. I suspect that actual transaction prices for the Jeeps are higher, too. Additionally, I have never seen anyone make the argument that the Durango is the upgrade path from the GC.

      I know that the Wagoneer and Grand Wagoneer are supposedly on their way, but the dates keep shifting is and there is no real discernible information about them. In the meantime, the Aviator might make for a compelling conquest sale.

      And what is the "Trailcat"? Did you mean Trackhawk?
      Durango is an Explorer competitor currently... so yes, not near the level of Aviator, which goes balls out on luxury interior.

      I think FCA will attempt to move JGC up the price bracket with the next go round. Also, the plans are fairly straight forward at this point as FCA already illustrated their product strategy in the agreement with UAW. There will be a 3-row Grand Cherokee that will replace the current Durango (likely called Wagoneer but not confirmed). And there will be a BOF Grand Wagoneer based on the next gen Ram platform. And supposedly, Durango will move to full size BOF to make sure the unibody 3-row Wagoneer has a wide lane to upcharge.

    6. Senior Member AZGolf's Avatar
      Join Date
      Jun 6th, 2000
      Location
      Phoenix area
      Posts
      33,139
      08-13-2019 01:06 PM #30
      Quote Originally Posted by Seabird View Post
      And what is the "Trailcat"? Did you mean Trackhawk?
      Haha, sorry - yeah that Trailcat was one of their concept vehicles.

    7. Member Off Pump's Avatar
      Join Date
      Apr 4th, 2017
      Location
      Indianapolis
      Posts
      300
      Vehicles
      14 JGC Hemi, 69 Camaro SS 396
      08-13-2019 01:20 PM #31
      I wanted one but now I really want one.
      Formerly Internal Combustion (4/2007)
      1969 Camaro SS 396- 396, M21 4 sp manuel, usual goodies
      14 Grand Cherokee Limited 5.7 17 Mazda CX-5 Grand Touring
      Old: 335xi, E320, Accord, WK, TJ, ZJ 5.9, Camaro, Prius

    8. Member
      Join Date
      May 15th, 2007
      Location
      Wilmington, DE
      Posts
      16,503
      Vehicles
      2015 VW GTI SE
      08-13-2019 02:09 PM #32
      Quote Originally Posted by Mike! View Post
      Grand Wagoneer launch has been "three years away" for the last decade or so. I believe 2022 actually could happen and line up with a significant platform update for the JGC too rather than being a new model on an old platform, but the point that Jeep's been leaving this segment on the table for years is valid.

      Mind you I think even Grand Wagoneer would be more Explorer Platinum than Aviator. I don't know how Jeep could get quite to Aviator level within their brand. Aviator interior is still something else.
      Jeep is already selling $70K-$80K Grand Cherokees and $60K Wrangler/Gladiators. They can easily challenge Lincoln on price. I know you guys all love Lincoln (all of a sudden), but Lincoln was/is a damaged brand, while
      Jeep has such strong equity and international presence. Also, the Grand Wagoneer will be Tahoe-sized, being built on the Ram truck platform. It's the Wagoneer that will replace the current Durango sized vehicle.

    9. Member masa8888's Avatar
      Join Date
      May 5th, 2003
      Location
      Reston VA
      Posts
      8,139
      Vehicles
      2019 VW Atlas SEL R-Line, 2000 911 Carrera, 2005 Audi TT 3.2 Quattro
      08-13-2019 03:11 PM #33
      Quote Originally Posted by whitejeep1989 View Post
      Jeep is already selling $70K-$80K Grand Cherokees and $60K Wrangler/Gladiators. They can easily challenge Lincoln on price. I know you guys all love Lincoln (all of a sudden), but Lincoln was/is a damaged brand, while
      Jeep has such strong equity and international presence. Also, the Grand Wagoneer will be Tahoe-sized, being built on the Ram truck platform. It's the Wagoneer that will replace the current Durango sized vehicle.
      I think Mike! was talking about the actual level of luxury and quality that the Grand Wagoneer will likely have, not so much the perceived brand equity of Jeep vs. Lincoln or that people won't actually buy Wagoneers for $80k. The Aviator / Navigator, especially in Black Label trim, seems to be on the level of the MB GLS and Range Rover in terms of interior luxury and fit and finish.

    10. Member Mike!'s Avatar
      Join Date
      Jun 17th, 2002
      Location
      Ontario & Ohio
      Posts
      19,941
      Vehicles
      2015 Fusion Wagon Allroad Turbo
      08-13-2019 04:35 PM #34
      Quote Originally Posted by masa8888 View Post
      I think Mike! was talking about the actual level of luxury and quality that the Grand Wagoneer will likely have, not so much the perceived brand equity of Jeep vs. Lincoln or that people won't actually buy Wagoneers for $80k. The Aviator / Navigator, especially in Black Label trim, seems to be on the level of the MB GLS and Range Rover in terms of interior luxury and fit and finish.
      Correct.

      Jeep offers a 700hp JGC that happens to be in a higher-end Aviator's price range. That doesn't make them competitors. Explorer/Aviator are the size of (bit bigger than) a current Durango, and presumably around what Wagoneer will be. I fully expect them to go toe-to-toe with a $58,250 Explorer Platinum and make a good case for themselves, but that doesn't mean it'll have Aviator-quality luxury.

      https://www.ford.com/suvs/explorer/m...orer-platinum/

      When Ford moves the Edge and Nautilus to CD6 but on a shorter wheelbase, those will be JGC competitors.

    11. Member
      Join Date
      Jul 25th, 2004
      Location
      Denver/Frankfurt
      Posts
      2,330
      08-13-2019 05:31 PM #35
      5,678 lbs

      The hybrid adds almost 800 lbs to the standard Aviator, the extra power is likely needed to make up the weight gain.
      19 Mini Cooper S Countryman ALL4 6MT JCW Tuning Kit
      18 BMW X3 M40i
      17 Volvo XC90 T6 Inscription P*

    12. 08-13-2019 09:49 PM #36
      I like the Aviator, but this thing starts at $70K and a fully loaded one nearly tops $100K up here in Canada. I can sorta understand the Navigator price as the big daddy, but yowza, the brand snob in me is spitting out my coffee.

    13. 08-14-2019 04:25 AM #37
      Quote Originally Posted by Mike! View Post
      Correct.

      Jeep offers a 700hp JGC that happens to be in a higher-end Aviator's price range. That doesn't make them competitors. Explorer/Aviator are the size of (bit bigger than) a current Durango, and presumably around what Wagoneer will be. I fully expect them to go toe-to-toe with a $58,250 Explorer Platinum and make a good case for themselves, but that doesn't mean it'll have Aviator-quality luxury.

      https://www.ford.com/suvs/explorer/m...orer-platinum/

      When Ford moves the Edge and Nautilus to CD6 but on a shorter wheelbase, those will be JGC competitors.
      Future Jeep Line up

      B Segment-Renegade
      C Segment Compass
      D Segment-Cherokee
      Large D Segment-(Unibody) Grand Cherokee (same as current GC)
      E Segment- (Unibody) Grand Cherokee 3 Row.....
      F Segment- BOF Wagoneers

      you guys are forgetting that Jeep is Gaining a 3 Row Grand Cherokee along with 2 BOF

    14. 08-14-2019 04:30 AM #38
      Quote Originally Posted by Venom21 View Post
      I like the Aviator, but this thing starts at $70K and a fully loaded one nearly tops $100K up here in Canada. I can sorta understand the Navigator price as the big daddy, but yowza, the brand snob in me is spitting out my coffee.
      Ok your in Canada where everything is more expensive there than the US. by your logic, a XT6 will cost you more because well... in the States, It cost more than the Standard Aviator.

    15. Member
      Join Date
      May 15th, 2007
      Location
      Wilmington, DE
      Posts
      16,503
      Vehicles
      2015 VW GTI SE
      08-14-2019 07:16 AM #39
      Quote Originally Posted by Tomaz View Post
      Future Jeep Line up

      B Segment-Renegade
      C Segment Compass
      D Segment-Cherokee
      Large D Segment-(Unibody) Grand Cherokee (same as current GC)
      E Segment- (Unibody) Grand Cherokee 3 Row.....
      F Segment- BOF Wagoneers

      you guys are forgetting that Jeep is Gaining a 3 Row Grand Cherokee along with 2 BOF
      I don't think we overlooked the 3 row Grand Cherokee.
      We have been referring to it as the "Wagoneer".
      Jeep has not said what the 3 row version of the Grand Cherokee well be called yet, but rumors have been floated that it will be called Wagoneer.
      The Grand Wagoneer is definitely slated to be the large BOF SUV.

    16. Member
      Join Date
      May 15th, 2007
      Location
      Wilmington, DE
      Posts
      16,503
      Vehicles
      2015 VW GTI SE
      08-14-2019 07:20 AM #40
      Quote Originally Posted by masa8888 View Post
      I think Mike! was talking about the actual level of luxury and quality that the Grand Wagoneer will likely have, not so much the perceived brand equity of Jeep vs. Lincoln or that people won't actually buy Wagoneers for $80k. The Aviator / Navigator, especially in Black Label trim, seems to be on the level of the MB GLS and Range Rover in terms of interior luxury and fit and finish.
      The levels of luxury in the upcoming "premium" Jeeps will certainly be purely speculative for now. Based on the current GC Overland (or whatever the top luxury version is now called), new Ram interior, and by familial extension, the Alfa Stelvio and Giulia interiors, I'd say that FCA/Jeep is more than capable of making luxurious interiors.

    17. Member
      Join Date
      Mar 11th, 2000
      Posts
      10,888
      Vehicles
      17 CX-5 GT, 11 Durango Hemi, 07 Airstream
      08-14-2019 09:36 AM #41
      While we're talking JGC - I do have to say this. I drove a Stelvio this weekend. Since the JGC is moving to that platform, if they drive anything like that, they'd have my money. The Alfa was probably the best driving non-Porsche SUV I've ever driven.

      (I still won't buy a Stelvio because Alfa, and it's lacking a lot of stuff I expect for $53k.)

    18. Member Mike!'s Avatar
      Join Date
      Jun 17th, 2002
      Location
      Ontario & Ohio
      Posts
      19,941
      Vehicles
      2015 Fusion Wagon Allroad Turbo
      08-14-2019 09:40 AM #42
      Quote Originally Posted by Tomaz View Post
      you guys are forgetting that Jeep is Gaining a 3 Row Grand Cherokee along with 2 BOF
      Hard to forget something that doesn't exist yet
      but we are discussing unibody 3-row Jeep (which I guess will be called Wagoneer, not Grand? and Grand will be the BoF Tahoe/Expedition competitor) whatever it will be called, which is what lines up with Explorer.

      Quote Originally Posted by whitejeep1989 View Post
      I don't think we overlooked the 3 row Grand Cherokee.
      We have been referring to it as the "Wagoneer".
      Jeep has not said what the 3 row version of the Grand Cherokee well be called yet, but rumors have been floated that it will be called Wagoneer.
      The Grand Wagoneer is definitely slated to be the large BOF SUV.


      Quote Originally Posted by whitejeep1989 View Post
      The levels of luxury in the upcoming "premium" Jeeps will certainly be purely speculative for now. Based on the current GC Overland (or whatever the top luxury version is now called), new Ram interior, and by familial extension, the Alfa Stelvio and Giulia interiors, I'd say that FCA/Jeep is more than capable of making luxurious interiors.
      Oh they're absolutely capable of making a luxurious interior. But how often do you see completely different interiors within the same model? Look at what Ford's done with Explorer and Aviator. They're very closely-related vehicles, but there's only so much "luxury" you can put in a $58k Explorer Platinum because it still shares interior with a $33k Base (rental spec below XLT). The features are great (massaging seats, fancy screens, everything you can think of) but it's still the same interior.

      Platinum


      But you put different sheetmetal on it and fully change up the interior, and you can do something that's luxury,

      Aviator


      I just doubt Jeep is going to offer two different interiors within Wagoneer. They're likely to offer a Durango-like model of it under $40k, right?

    19. 08-14-2019 10:22 AM #43
      Quote Originally Posted by Tomaz View Post
      Ok your in Canada where everything is more expensive there than the US. by your logic, a XT6 will cost you more because well... in the States, It cost more than the Standard Aviator.
      The XT6 tops out around $85,000 here, no hybrid, but still almost $15K less. It also starts around $10K less than the Aviator. Not that I'd have either of them.

    20. Member
      Join Date
      May 15th, 2007
      Location
      Wilmington, DE
      Posts
      16,503
      Vehicles
      2015 VW GTI SE
      08-14-2019 10:31 AM #44
      Quote Originally Posted by Mike! View Post
      Hard to forget something that doesn't exist yet
      but we are discussing unibody 3-row Jeep (which I guess will be called Wagoneer, not Grand? and Grand will be the BoF Tahoe/Expedition competitor) whatever it will be called, which is what lines up with Explorer.







      Oh they're absolutely capable of making a luxurious interior. But how often do you see completely different interiors within the same model? Look at what Ford's done with Explorer and Aviator. They're very closely-related vehicles, but there's only so much "luxury" you can put in a $58k Explorer Platinum because it still shares interior with a $33k Base (rental spec below XLT). The features are great (massaging seats, fancy screens, everything you can think of) but it's still the same interior.

      Platinum


      But you put different sheetmetal on it and fully change up the interior, and you can do something that's luxury,

      Aviator


      I just doubt Jeep is going to offer two different interiors within Wagoneer. They're likely to offer a Durango-like model of it under $40k, right?
      FCA's late chairman Sergio Marchionne suggested the Grand Wagoneer would have "Range Rover" pricing.
      That seems to be in line with where Lincoln and Cadillac have priced their large SUVs.

      The Wagoneer will be smaller and less expensive than the Grand Wagoneer, but it will be larger (and possibly more expensive than the GC), so the Wagoneer and GC might not share interiors at all.
      The GC and Durango are basically the current incarnation of this sort of arrangement, and each has a unique interior. In this future scenario, the three-row version will be designed to be more "premium" and could get the "Aviator" interior, while the 2-row version gets the "Explorer" interior.

    21. Member
      Join Date
      Aug 10th, 2015
      Location
      PA
      Posts
      936
      Vehicles
      2017 A4 Limousine, 2018 Tiguan Allspace
      08-14-2019 10:43 AM #45
      Quote Originally Posted by whitejeep1989 View Post
      I don't think we overlooked the 3 row Grand Cherokee.
      We have been referring to it as the "Wagoneer".
      Jeep has not said what the 3 row version of the Grand Cherokee well be called yet, but rumors have been floated that it will be called Wagoneer.
      The Grand Wagoneer is definitely slated to be the large BOF SUV.
      Yeah I thought Wagoneer & Grand Wagoneer will compete with Tahoe/Yukon/Escalade & Suburban/Yukon XL/Escalade ESV respectively

    22. Senior Member 6cylVWguy's Avatar
      Join Date
      Jun 14th, 2000
      Location
      PA
      Posts
      26,286
      Blog Entries
      4
      Vehicles
      '18 Jeep SRT; '11 M3 ZCP; '94 SLC
      08-14-2019 10:46 AM #46
      Quote Originally Posted by Seabird View Post
      I don't think that the Durango is the high-end or expensive option. That lineup runs about the same cost as the JGC. The Durango SRT is actually cheaper than the Jeep version. I suspect that actual transaction prices for the Jeeps are higher, too. Additionally, I have never seen anyone make the argument that the Durango is the upgrade path from the GC.

      I know that the Wagoneer and Grand Wagoneer are supposedly on their way, but the dates keep shifting is and there is no real discernible information about them. In the meantime, the Aviator might make for a compelling conquest sale.

      And what is the "Trailcat"? Did you mean Trackhawk?
      The only reason the DSRT is cheaper is because it has fewer standard features. The same options are available however in the DSRT and when similarly equiped, the price difference is inconsequential. I wish Jeep offered the GCSRT in a more decontented package. So no, it makes no sense for the jeep to be the upgrade for dodge owners. They are literally the same vehicle with the durango being longer.

      As far as this lincoln is concerned, no thanks. I'll keep my jeep and i'd rather have the x3m. There's no indication that this will offer anything more than more power--no tire, chassis, or brake upgrades. Who wants that? And the looks? Not remotely sporty looking. It strikes me as the same strategy as ford is taking with the explorer st. I checked one of these out at the dealer. What a waste of time. It has a decent engine and that's about it. Brakes are single piston cast steel units, the tires look about as wide as the donut spare in the gcsrt. As far as I could tell from the sticker and looking at it, not much has been done to the suspension. And the interior? The seats looked pretty basic---nothing particularly sporty there. And the general style---so homely for a supposedly sporty. This seems identical. People who want an actually sporty expensive SUV will not be choosing the aviator with the fancy engine over other actually sporty options.

      Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

    23. Chili Bigot Seabird's Avatar
      Join Date
      Feb 8th, 2002
      Location
      Secret underground lair with machine gun turrets
      Posts
      19,148
      Vehicles
      392+485=LOL
      08-14-2019 11:02 AM #47
      To be clear, I don't think that this is the upgrade option for SRT owners (GC, Durango, or otherwise). That is an altogether different animal. I was talking about the folks in the fully spec'd Summits with the V6 or 5.7 V8. Buyers who want more luxury and refinement, not the aggressive looks and performance of the SRTs.
      Quote Originally Posted by Col. David Crockett
      I told the people of my district, that, if they saw fit to re-elect me, I would serve them as faithfully as I had done; but, if not, they might go to Hell, and I would go to Texas.

    24. Senior Member 6cylVWguy's Avatar
      Join Date
      Jun 14th, 2000
      Location
      PA
      Posts
      26,286
      Blog Entries
      4
      Vehicles
      '18 Jeep SRT; '11 M3 ZCP; '94 SLC
      08-14-2019 11:18 AM #48
      Quote Originally Posted by Seabird View Post
      I was talking about the folks in the fully spec'd Summits with the V6 or 5.7 V8. Buyers who want more luxury and refinement, not the aggressive looks and performance of the SRTs.
      I would think that for these folks, the regular v6 turbo would be a pretty nice upgrade. I guess i'm not really seeing the point of this new engine option. Is there a fe benefit?

      Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

    25. Member Mike!'s Avatar
      Join Date
      Jun 17th, 2002
      Location
      Ontario & Ohio
      Posts
      19,941
      Vehicles
      2015 Fusion Wagon Allroad Turbo
      08-14-2019 11:28 AM #49
      Quote Originally Posted by 6cylVWguy View Post
      I would think that for these folks, the regular v6 turbo would be a pretty nice upgrade. I guess i'm not really seeing the point of this new engine option. Is there a fe benefit?
      EPA FE is still TBD for both the Aviator PHEV and the Explorer Hybrid. It will improve the mileage sticker, the question is by how much.

      A PHEV in this class no matter how low the range is allows the buyer to avoid the guilt that would otherwise come with buying a 17/24mpg SUV. Nevermind that the range will probably be low enough that the gas engine is on most of the time, but at least it'll hopefully get more than 20mpg average.

      17/24 is still really good for a 400hp, 4800lb, 3-row SUV though.

    26. Senior Member 6cylVWguy's Avatar
      Join Date
      Jun 14th, 2000
      Location
      PA
      Posts
      26,286
      Blog Entries
      4
      Vehicles
      '18 Jeep SRT; '11 M3 ZCP; '94 SLC
      08-14-2019 11:35 AM #50
      Quote Originally Posted by Mike! View Post

      17/24 is still really good for a 400hp, 4800lb, 3-row SUV though.
      That's impressive on a couple of levels at least compared to my rig. Even down on a bit of power in comparison, i struggle to get 17 mpg on the highway and any brisk accleration gets you into the 16s pretty quickly. And 4800 lbs? The jeep is like 5200 lbs! So it's impressive the weight on the lincoln is so low. Seems to be a nice platform to really take on the srt versions from fca. Hopefully Ford puts some effort into that at some point.

      Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

    Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast

    Posting Permissions

    • You may not post new threads
    • You may not post replies
    • You may not post attachments
    • You may not edit your posts
    •