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    Thread: Move over Model X, Cadillac Escalade EV is coming with 400 miles range!

    1. Member r_fostoria's Avatar
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      08-15-2019 08:36 AM #26
      Quote Originally Posted by CTK View Post
      So what exactly is the point of an Escalade (or any) BEV in the context of our constrained battery supply? It can't be emissions reductions.
      I think you may also be missing the forest for the trees. There are a number of reasons why this is a good idea:

      1) It's cool, trendy tech and people like that.

      2) It feels like it's progressive and better for the environment, and humans are far more emotional than they are rational.

      3) It's straight up cheaper to own from a fuel expense standpoint.

      4) It will be very quiet/smooth.

      5) This same technology can be put into all of GMs BOF trucks and SUVs, which is going to quickly become a competitive market.

      You're splitting hairs over the real world effectiveness of one reason, when really very few people are going to care about that.

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      08-15-2019 08:50 AM #27
      Quote Originally Posted by GoFaster View Post
      Greenwashing. Marketing.

      (good post)
      Yea, drag is key. Electric motorcycles have the same problem. You want to go on the highway, your range gets cut in half.

      Quote Originally Posted by r_fostoria View Post
      I think you may also be missing the forest for the trees. There are a number of reasons why this is a good idea:

      1) It's cool, trendy tech and people like that.

      2) It feels like it's progressive and better for the environment, and humans are far more emotional than they are rational.

      3) It's straight up cheaper to own from a fuel expense standpoint.

      4) It will be very quiet/smooth.

      5) This same technology can be put into all of GMs BOF trucks and SUVs, which is going to quickly become a competitive market.

      You're splitting hairs over the real world effectiveness of one reason, when really very few people are going to care about that.
      I don't think I'm splitting hairs; this thing is a huge waste of batteries and money in the context of emissions reductions... not just in a real world sense, but even quasi meaningless regulatory **** like CAFE scores.

      I don't even know if this is a good business idea. This is gonna cost more than a regular Escalade (or my theoretical hybrid), but have less range (gasser can do damn near 600 miles a tank on the highway) and most likely be compromised in towing etc. too. I don't think GM has Tesla's power of hypnosis; full size GM truck/SUV buyers are a practical bunch and will see through this bull****.

    4. Member turbinepowered's Avatar
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      08-15-2019 08:51 AM #28
      Quote Originally Posted by Silly_me View Post
      Riddle me this: The model x weighs 1k lbs more than a comparable gasoline engined mid-sized ute. The gas escalade is about 1k lbs more than the model X..... and the X only has a range of 240 miles. So, are we looking at an 8k lb escalade here or has GM uncorked some magical genie? LOL indeed
      Per wiki:
      Model X 100D: 5420 pounds
      Escalade per google: 5856 pounds on the top end

      440 pound difference, not 1000.



      Best guesstimate I can make of the powertrain weight (L86+10L80) would be right around 900 pounds wet weight, call it just under 1100 pounds when you add in the exhaust, plumbing, and nearly 200# of fuel and fuel tank.

      So your unmodified, unlightened Escalade is going to be down to ~4700 pounds base weight.


      Now, if we assume that you are going to see less efficiency than a Model X based on the vehicle frontal area and sheer size, that seems reasonable; the Tesla officially rates at 380Wh/mile. If we assume that the GM is going to do ~20% worse, and come in at 450Wh/mile, does that seem reasonable?

      Using that assumption, 450*400/1000 gives us 180kWh required to go the distance per spec.

      Using the Bolt energy density of 133 Wh/kg that would give us a roughly 3k pound battery pack. Presuming GM and LG Chem learned nothing from the Bolt batteries and simply strapped three of them into the frame, you'd be good to go at a ~8k pound Escalade EV w/ 400 miles of range.

      Assuming they take advantage of the flatter area to work with, the single enclosure, and layout/component improvements and sharing, they could feasibly improve that rating to bring the pack weight down to roughly 2k per pack, especially if this is targeted for when the NMC 811 cells are supposed to be in production. So that brings your weight down to around 7k pounds.

      I would suspect that any Escalade EV would also undergo a lightening process, removing components necessary to deal with NVH from the engine and transmission, changing out some materials for lighter versions, aerodynamic tweaks to improve its drag coefficient, that sort of process. It's a big, premium ride and they seem to be consistent in putting in the time and effort to get it right, so I can't imagine they'd cheap out on that now.

      Edit: RE: Charging, assuming a 6.6kW L2 charger at home and 450Wh/mi efficiency you'd gain ~14 miles of range per hour on the charger, with an approximately 28 hour full-charge from empty. If one moved up to a bigger charger, like this Clipper Creek HCS-50 at 9.6kW, you'd regain ~21 miles per hour plugged in and have a full charge time of around 19 hours from dead-nuts empty.

      And at $0.18/kWh you'd be spending roughly $0.08/mile to operate it, versus $0.12/mile @ $2.75/gallon fuel price. Gas would need to be <$2/gallon for you to reach operational cost parity in fuel, and that leaves out the oil and filter change costs.
      Last edited by turbinepowered; 08-15-2019 at 09:13 AM.
      Quote Originally Posted by zukiphile View Post
      There is an area of a normal brain that lets the owner know the object works and needs to be left alone. Not all of us have it. It is like being colorblind.

    5. Member turbinepowered's Avatar
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      08-15-2019 08:57 AM #29
      Quote Originally Posted by CTK View Post
      I think you may be missing the forest for the trees here. I probably sound like a broken record, but I believe what I'm saying makes sense.

      Let's say a gas Escalade emits 1000 tons of CO2 over its lifetime (just to keep the math simple). Our electric grid still uses fossil fuels, so the CO2 does not go to zero- but I'll even let it go to zero to make my point. So, 200kWh to eliminate 1000 tons.

      On average hybrids save about 30-40% vs their ICE equivalents. So let's say 1 Escalade hybrid could eliminate 300 tons. Thing is, it would only need 2kWh to do it. So that 200kWh could go to 100 hybrids, to eliminate 30,000 tons of CO2. And again that is the most conservative estimate in the BEV's favor. In reality, the hybrids could eliminate as much as 40K tons, while the Escalade BEV may only do 600-700 tons. So that battery could be damn near 100x more effective at reducing emissions in a hybrid.

      So what exactly is the point of an Escalade (or any) BEV in the context of our constrained battery supply? It can't be emissions reductions.
      Why do you assume an Escalade hybrid would only need a 2kWh pack to be effective? Hybrid assist effectiveness is proportional to the amount of assist given; if you put a starter-sized assist on a full size vehicle, you aren't going to be getting that 30-40% improvement.

      Considering the Prius has a near 8kWh pack for a much smaller assist motor and vehicle...

      Plus, there have been hybrids and mild hybrids of this class of vehicle before, and nobody bought them. They added cost but did not provide a significant enough reduction in running costs OR wow factor to justify the additional price, so they appealed to neither the eco-conscious nor the trendy rich.
      Quote Originally Posted by zukiphile View Post
      There is an area of a normal brain that lets the owner know the object works and needs to be left alone. Not all of us have it. It is like being colorblind.

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      08-15-2019 09:15 AM #30
      Quote Originally Posted by turbinepowered View Post
      Why do you assume an Escalade hybrid would only need a 2kWh pack to be effective? Hybrid assist effectiveness is proportional to the amount of assist given; if you put a starter-sized assist on a full size vehicle, you aren't going to be getting that 30-40% improvement.

      Considering the Prius has a near 8kWh pack for a much smaller assist motor and vehicle...

      Plus, there have been hybrids and mild hybrids of this class of vehicle before, and nobody bought them. They added cost but did not provide a significant enough reduction in running costs OR wow factor to justify the additional price, so they appealed to neither the eco-conscious nor the trendy rich.
      I am talking about a regular hybrid, not a plug in hybrid. I don't believe in plug in hybrids either. Anyways I figured ~3300lb HEVs like the Camry and Accord Hybrid have ~1-1.5kWh battery packs, so doubling that for the Escalade seemed reasonable.

      The previous full size SUV hybrids just weren't very good. I would imagine and hope GM has learned a good bit since then. I don't think it would be unreasonable for GM to get the Escalade from 17MPG combined to 23-25MPG with hybridization. And all the battery scale benefits apply to hybrids too, so they should be able to keep the costs down- one of the big demerits of their first efforts.

    7. Member turbinepowered's Avatar
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      08-15-2019 09:48 AM #31
      Quote Originally Posted by CTK View Post
      I am talking about a regular hybrid, not a plug in hybrid. I don't believe in plug in hybrids either. Anyways I figured ~3300lb HEVs like the Camry and Accord Hybrid have ~1-1.5kWh battery packs, so doubling that for the Escalade seemed reasonable.

      The previous full size SUV hybrids just weren't very good. I would imagine and hope GM has learned a good bit since then. I don't think it would be unreasonable for GM to get the Escalade from 17MPG combined to 23-25MPG with hybridization. And all the battery scale benefits apply to hybrids too, so they should be able to keep the costs down- one of the big demerits of their first efforts.
      Assist motors in those vehicles are also rather smaller than the needed assist for a vehicle of the Escalade's heft.

      Also, the ideal batteries for a hybrid are power-dense, not energy-dense like a BEV; they aren't the same chemistry.

      Hybrids rely on short-duration pulses to assist the motor for acceleration from a stop, but don't supply much sustained power. This will demand a high power output from the battery.

      You can attain high power ratings from a battery in two ways: have a big battery in terms of Ah capacity, or have a high power density chemistry like LTO.

      Tesla and other BEVs take the first route, big batteries with big capacities.

      Older gen hybrids went the other way, and used NiMH or NiCd batteries. Good power density, but heavy and bulky to deal with; the original Tahoe battery pack only had enough energy to propel it for a couple minutes on its own, but weight several hundred pounds and took up the entirety of the space under the middle row of seats. NiMH batteries also have a tendency to leak over time, a nasty corrosive goo. Other high-power battery chemistries could be used, like LTO. LTO is an incredibly high output (10c is nothing for them), high cycle life battery chemistry used in stationary applications (because it is heavy, bulky and EXPENSIVE). To go with that you are still adding weight and removing space from the original vehicle, because none of the ICE components are downsized or removed; they remain the primary mover of the vehicle, after all, with the hybrid only offering an assist.

      Because of the differences in required properties, mass production of hybrid batteries will not take advantage of any of the scale work currently under way for BEVs, nor can they really take advantage of any of the development work for batteries currently underway. Plug-in hybrids could, but not standard HEVs.

      As noted above, even at 26MPG the SUV hybrid would have to be served by <$2/gal gasoline to match the operating costs of the BEV at elevated electricity costs ($0.18/kWh is higher than national average), even without factoring in other maintenance items not present on the BEV.
      Quote Originally Posted by zukiphile View Post
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      08-15-2019 10:16 AM #32
      Quote Originally Posted by turbinepowered View Post
      Per wiki:
      Model X 100D: 5420 pounds
      Escalade per google: 5856 pounds on the top end

      440 pound difference, not 1000.



      Best guesstimate I can make of the powertrain weight (L86+10L80) would be right around 900 pounds wet weight, call it just under 1100 pounds when you add in the exhaust, plumbing, and nearly 200# of fuel and fuel tank.

      So your unmodified, unlightened Escalade is going to be down to ~4700 pounds base weight.


      Now, if we assume that you are going to see less efficiency than a Model X based on the vehicle frontal area and sheer size, that seems reasonable; the Tesla officially rates at 380Wh/mile. If we assume that the GM is going to do ~20% worse, and come in at 450Wh/mile, does that seem reasonable?

      Using that assumption, 450*400/1000 gives us 180kWh required to go the distance per spec.

      Using the Bolt energy density of 133 Wh/kg that would give us a roughly 3k pound battery pack. Presuming GM and LG Chem learned nothing from the Bolt batteries and simply strapped three of them into the frame, you'd be good to go at a ~8k pound Escalade EV w/ 400 miles of range.

      Assuming they take advantage of the flatter area to work with, the single enclosure, and layout/component improvements and sharing, they could feasibly improve that rating to bring the pack weight down to roughly 2k per pack, especially if this is targeted for when the NMC 811 cells are supposed to be in production. So that brings your weight down to around 7k pounds.

      I would suspect that any Escalade EV would also undergo a lightening process, removing components necessary to deal with NVH from the engine and transmission, changing out some materials for lighter versions, aerodynamic tweaks to improve its drag coefficient, that sort of process. It's a big, premium ride and they seem to be consistent in putting in the time and effort to get it right, so I can't imagine they'd cheap out on that now.

      Edit: RE: Charging, assuming a 6.6kW L2 charger at home and 450Wh/mi efficiency you'd gain ~14 miles of range per hour on the charger, with an approximately 28 hour full-charge from empty. If one moved up to a bigger charger, like this Clipper Creek HCS-50 at 9.6kW, you'd regain ~21 miles per hour plugged in and have a full charge time of around 19 hours from dead-nuts empty.

      And at $0.18/kWh you'd be spending roughly $0.08/mile to operate it, versus $0.12/mile @ $2.75/gallon fuel price. Gas would need to be <$2/gallon for you to reach operational cost parity in fuel, and that leaves out the oil and filter change costs.

      Big post to quote, but this is an excellent thought experiment. Thank you for taking the time to think it through and write up the post!
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    9. 08-15-2019 10:18 AM #33
      Tesla Model X has Cd = 0.24, Chevrolet Tahoe last generation (same as Escalade) had Cd = 0.38 and it's a fair bit higher (more frontal area). If the Tesla uses 380 Wh/mile, I think assuming 20% higher energy consumption is incredibly optimistic unless GM makes the Escalade look a lot more like a Model X ...

      Also turbinepowered's calculation above suggests 30% - 50% more weight which means it's going to have higher energy consumption in urban driving as well.

      Re-engineering T1XX to be lighter and more aerodynamic to achieve this would require modifications of enough scope that the end result won't resemble what we currently think of as a T1XX vehicle any more.

      Prediction 1: An electric version of a T1XX platform vehicle is going to happen. That's almost a certainty.
      Prediction 2: But it won't have a 400 mile range, at least not in the first iteration of the vehicle.
      Prediction 3: if it has anywhere close to that, it will cost a fortune (battery tech) and will resemble the current Escalade in name only (i.e. it will be a unibody vehicle that's narrower, lower, and more aerodynamic ... kinda like a Model X ... or a Volt except bigger. GM knows how to do this, just not with something that looks like current generation trucks and SUVs.)

      Re-engineering mass market trucks and SUVs to have less drag, less weight, less bulk, and less height, are all GOOD things in my view. Doesn't even matter if EV or combustion-engine. But I'm not a truck person. Whether the market in general would accept the end result in the foreseeable future, is a darn good question.

    10. Member turbinepowered's Avatar
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      08-15-2019 10:20 AM #34
      Quote Originally Posted by Toaster29 View Post
      Big post to quote, but this is an excellent thought experiment. Thank you for taking the time to think it through and write up the post!
      In the interest of full disclosure, I work in the EV industry, just not passenger car EVs.

      I have some spreadsheets and tables handy for doing up the math, then I went to google to get weights and dims for passenger car data.
      Quote Originally Posted by zukiphile View Post
      There is an area of a normal brain that lets the owner know the object works and needs to be left alone. Not all of us have it. It is like being colorblind.

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      08-15-2019 10:26 AM #35
      Quote Originally Posted by turbinepowered View Post
      In the interest of full disclosure, I work in the EV industry, just not passenger car EVs.
      Yeah well my eyeball shot at the hip estimate was pretty close to all your fancy math mister


      [edit]Though that does kinda bring up a scary point, do we want soccer moms to lug around 1-2k extra pounds of carnage in a vehicle that will undoubtedly accelerate much quicker? [/edit]
      Last edited by Silly_me; 08-15-2019 at 10:28 AM.
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      08-15-2019 10:37 AM #36
      Quote Originally Posted by GoFaster View Post
      Tesla Model X has Cd = 0.24, Chevrolet Tahoe last generation (same as Escalade) had Cd = 0.38 and it's a fair bit higher (more frontal area). If the Tesla uses 380 Wh/mile, I think assuming 20% higher energy consumption is incredibly optimistic unless GM makes the Escalade look a lot more like a Model X ...

      Also turbinepowered's calculation above suggests 30% - 50% more weight which means it's going to have higher energy consumption in urban driving as well.

      Re-engineering T1XX to be lighter and more aerodynamic to achieve this would require modifications of enough scope that the end result won't resemble what we currently think of as a T1XX vehicle any more.

      Prediction 1: An electric version of a T1XX platform vehicle is going to happen. That's almost a certainty.
      Prediction 2: But it won't have a 400 mile range, at least not in the first iteration of the vehicle.
      Prediction 3: if it has anywhere close to that, it will cost a fortune (battery tech) and will resemble the current Escalade in name only (i.e. it will be a unibody vehicle that's narrower, lower, and more aerodynamic ... kinda like a Model X ... or a Volt except bigger. GM knows how to do this, just not with something that looks like current generation trucks and SUVs.)

      Re-engineering mass market trucks and SUVs to have less drag, less weight, less bulk, and less height, are all GOOD things in my view. Doesn't even matter if EV or combustion-engine. But I'm not a truck person. Whether the market in general would accept the end result in the foreseeable future, is a darn good question.
      A lot of that drag exists due to elements with the purposes of cooling or feeding air into that big V8 engine; radiator grilles, air outlets, exhaust drag, heat removal, and so forth. There's a good bit of aero work that can't be done w/ a combustion driven version of the vehicle, or at least not cost effectively.

      I found a Cd for the current production Escalade of .363 via Google, so I'd say they're already moving toward improving that area. Cd will really only begin to matter for highway numbers, and active aero can help get that number down.

      Urban driving is also max regen territory; the weight and big pack doesn't hurt nearly as much in stop and go as most assume. It's been surprising how little effect added mass has had on city efficiency in my own area of EV buses. We're running .7ish Cd on those as well, with a MASSIVE frontal area, the boxiest of boxes.
      Quote Originally Posted by zukiphile View Post
      There is an area of a normal brain that lets the owner know the object works and needs to be left alone. Not all of us have it. It is like being colorblind.

    13. Member turbinepowered's Avatar
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      08-15-2019 10:39 AM #37
      Quote Originally Posted by Silly_me View Post
      Yeah well my eyeball shot at the hip estimate was pretty close to all your fancy math mister


      [edit]Though that does kinda bring up a scary point, do we want soccer moms to lug around 1-2k extra pounds of carnage in a vehicle that will undoubtedly accelerate much quicker? [/edit]
      Yes, but mine contains SCIENCE!





      Quote Originally Posted by zukiphile View Post
      There is an area of a normal brain that lets the owner know the object works and needs to be left alone. Not all of us have it. It is like being colorblind.

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      08-15-2019 10:59 AM #38
      Quote Originally Posted by turbinepowered View Post
      Assist motors in those vehicles are also rather smaller than the needed assist for a vehicle of the Escalade's heft.

      Also, the ideal batteries for a hybrid are power-dense, not energy-dense like a BEV; they aren't the same chemistry.

      Hybrids rely on short-duration pulses to assist the motor for acceleration from a stop, but don't supply much sustained power. This will demand a high power output from the battery.

      You can attain high power ratings from a battery in two ways: have a big battery in terms of Ah capacity, or have a high power density chemistry like LTO.

      Tesla and other BEVs take the first route, big batteries with big capacities.

      Older gen hybrids went the other way, and used NiMH or NiCd batteries. Good power density, but heavy and bulky to deal with; the original Tahoe battery pack only had enough energy to propel it for a couple minutes on its own, but weight several hundred pounds and took up the entirety of the space under the middle row of seats. NiMH batteries also have a tendency to leak over time, a nasty corrosive goo. Other high-power battery chemistries could be used, like LTO. LTO is an incredibly high output (10c is nothing for them), high cycle life battery chemistry used in stationary applications (because it is heavy, bulky and EXPENSIVE). To go with that you are still adding weight and removing space from the original vehicle, because none of the ICE components are downsized or removed; they remain the primary mover of the vehicle, after all, with the hybrid only offering an assist.

      Because of the differences in required properties, mass production of hybrid batteries will not take advantage of any of the scale work currently under way for BEVs, nor can they really take advantage of any of the development work for batteries currently underway. Plug-in hybrids could, but not standard HEVs.

      As noted above, even at 26MPG the SUV hybrid would have to be served by <$2/gal gasoline to match the operating costs of the BEV at elevated electricity costs ($0.18/kWh is higher than national average), even without factoring in other maintenance items not present on the BEV.
      Do you know what battery chemistry Honda & Toyota's regular hybrid lithium batteries use? In any case, that's depressing. We are taking the wrong fork in the road.

      And sure the BEV operating costs will be cheaper. But how much cheaper is very geography dependent. Based on averages of battery/fuel/electric costs, the average American would be spending $20-30K+ to save $2000 a year. That's **** payback....

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      08-15-2019 11:11 AM #39
      Quote Originally Posted by Silly_me View Post
      Riddle me this: The model x weighs 1k lbs more than a comparable gasoline engined mid-sized ute. The gas escalade is about 1k lbs more than the model X..... and the X only has a range of 240 miles. So, are we looking at an 8k lb escalade here or has GM uncorked some magical genie? LOL indeed
      The Model X is the size of the Escalade.
      It is not a mid size SUV at all.

      X Escalade
      198" 203" overall length
      116.7" 116.0" wheelbase
      78.7". 80.5". overall width.

      Also
      X is 5428 lbs
      Escalade is 5856 lbs for a 4x4, regardless of trim.

      So...you're way off the mark here.

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      08-15-2019 11:23 AM #40
      Quote Originally Posted by CTK View Post
      I don't believe in plug in hybrids either.
      You mean, you don't believe in them like Santa Claus or you don't think they work? More to the point, you don't believe they work for you. My CMax energi works very well for me and my current situation.

      There's not a one-size-fits-all solution here. All of these huge companies are hedging their bets based upon what they think is going to appeal to the most amount of people, regardless of your engineering, manufacturing and marketing expertise. They are in the business of making money, and that's where they're going. Time will tell how these technologies progress and if those are the right decisions, but your constant whining about BEV's in every. single. thread. makes you sound as ridiculous as the windmill cancer people. Yes, they have drawbacks and they don't work for everyone, but refusing to acknowledge the benefits for some people just feels a little foxnews.

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      Last edited by Crispyfritter; 08-15-2019 at 11:33 AM.
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      08-15-2019 12:02 PM #41
      EV Escalade is going to be hugely popular with the main two key buyers of the current Escalade.

      It's the ultimate have your cake and eat it vehicle for people that need a large vehicle and still have to worry about the social consciousness image they are projecting on social media.

      And the livery service will eat it up. 400 miles is enough range to do a dozen JFK to Midtown or West LA to LAX round trips without recharging.

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      08-15-2019 12:22 PM #42
      Quote Originally Posted by Ark6 View Post
      The Model X is the size of the Escalade.
      It is not a mid size SUV at all.

      X Escalade
      198" 203" overall length
      116.7" 116.0" wheelbase
      78.7". 80.5". overall width.

      Also
      X is 5428 lbs
      Escalade is 5856 lbs for a 4x4, regardless of trim.

      So...you're way off the mark here.
      The X includes batteries. The Escalade does not.

      What does the X's motors and batteries weigh versus the Esc's engine, transmission and AWD system?
      I reject geometry.

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      08-15-2019 01:05 PM #43
      Quote Originally Posted by bzcat View Post
      EV Escalade is going to be hugely popular with the main two key buyers of the current Escalade.

      It's the ultimate have your cake and eat it vehicle for people that need a large vehicle and still have to worry about the social consciousness image they are projecting on social media.

      And the livery service will eat it up. 400 miles is enough range to do a dozen JFK to Midtown or West LA to LAX round trips without recharging.
      You bring up another interesting point, a lot of big companies have green initiatives, and have been switching their company cars and executive/senior management perk/lease cars to electric.
      Some companies (hell, probably even GM) won't lease big SUVs for their execs, unless they are EVs.
      A lot of the law firm partner parking spots in my building are full of Teslas.
      We can argue about the true impact of hybrids vs BEVs (and we have for days, on various threads ), but it's also a question of product portfolio management.
      With Audi, MB, Jaguar, BMW, and likely Lincoln all offering BEV SUV/CUVs, Cadillac simply cannot sit this segment out.

    20. Senior Member Silly_me's Avatar
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      08-15-2019 01:13 PM #44
      Quote Originally Posted by Ark6 View Post

      So...you're way off the mark here.
      The Escalade is a half foot longer and 8 inches taller than the X. Found this pic from some limo service:




      I would not say the X is the same size as the 'lade.
      Germans are white people. Look up #84 on the list of things white people like: Gear. Lots of Gear. We even have gear farkles over here. -Atomicalex

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    21. Member Ark6's Avatar
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      08-15-2019 01:16 PM #45
      Quote Originally Posted by Lwize View Post
      The X includes batteries. The Escalade does not.

      What does the X's motors and batteries weigh versus the Esc's engine, transmission and AWD system?
      Unlike Tesla, Cadillac likely has a LOT of sound dampening going on. An similar equipped Tahoe is 200 lbs less, and close to what the X weighs. However the X does have multiple seating configs that could jack the weight up more than what's posted.

      Also another person did the math above, I'm just doing a quick rehash of what he stated .

    22. 08-15-2019 01:51 PM #46
      Quote Originally Posted by turbinepowered View Post
      A lot of that drag exists due to elements with the purposes of cooling or feeding air into that big V8 engine; radiator grilles, air outlets, exhaust drag, heat removal, and so forth. There's a good bit of aero work that can't be done w/ a combustion driven version of the vehicle, or at least not cost effectively.
      That's a fair statement. Grilles can be blocked off, but re-shaping of the front end of the vehicle because it no longer has to accommodate the engine is where real gains are available. Push the base of the windshield forward, lower the front of the hood so that the hood is more sloping, round off sharp corners. But now it no longer looks like the same vehicle (and starts looking more like a Model X!).

      The underside of a conventional pickup truck or SUV is a mess. BEVs can have a flat underside (as the Tesla does ... as a Chevy Bolt does). The K2XX SUVs have a deep front air dam to reduce the amount of air passing that messy underside, but the real gain is from smoothing out that bottom. That means either splitting up the batteries in a way that fits around the frame rails OR ... make the underside look like a Tesla (or Bolt or VW iD) ... and the easiest way to do that is ... unibody!! ... and that would cut the weight down, too.

      For what it's worth, a current-production Fiat Ducato (Ram ProMaster) has Cd = 0.31, so it is possible for a boxy utilitarian thing to have a decent drag coefficient ... but a Ducato has a low nose and a sloping hood line that blends into the angle of the windshield, and a relatively small grille opening that is low on the front of the vehicle.

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