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    Thread: Phaeton Whack-a-Mole: Suspension Level Edition

    1. Member
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      08-22-2019 09:59 PM #1
      As some of you frequent visitors to this forum know, I was unable to solve a limp mode problem on my Phaeton. After loads of research, I realized I had a problem with my ABS Control Module.
      I sent it off to www.cheapabs.com for repair. When it came back I reinstalled it, bled the brakes, drove it for almost a week and everything was fine. Today, driving the car back to the office from lunch I got the dreaded Fault Level Workshop. Driving it home after work I could tell it was riding very low in the front. It felt like it was hitting bumpstops.

      I got home and, as suspected, the front end of the car was very low. I hooked up VCDS and looked at Measuring Blocks for 34-Level Control. I copied each value to Notepad and saved it. The values are here: https://t.ly/g95Km

      In looking through the readings, the Group 5 values jumped out at me. They showed LF=234mm, RF=49mm. Those values are supposed to represent the distance from the centerline of the wheel to the underside of the fender edge. Since the entire front end is sitting very low and (it appears) level, those numbers should be fairly close to each other, but they are more than 7" different from each other. (I measured the actual and it is around 330mm.) I thought that a good first step would be to set the adaptation for the levels of the four corners per the procedure on the Ross-Tech website. I had a lot of trouble getting through the Security portion and once I did I could not do the adaptation. Several times, after pressing "Go" it would get stuck on "WAIT" and not change to "VALUE" (as Ross-Tech says it should) where you are supposed to enter the measured height. Screenshot of the Ross-Tech that just sits there: https://t.ly/GN1r

      One final tidbit that may or may not be meaningful: I am not 100% certain that I put the car in Jack Mode before removing the ABS Control Module which I read somewhere disables it. I also read that setting the Group 00 to 0 rests the module but it did not work for me.

      Any idea what might be going on here and what to do next?

      Paul
      '04 Phaeton W12 (108,000 miles)
      '05 Passat TDI Wagon 5-speed conversion (225,000 miles)
      '03 Jetta GL TDI Wagon 5-speed (338,000 miles)
      '03 Jetta GLS TDI Wagon 5-speed conversion (250,000 miles)
      '13 CC Sport 6-speed (75,000 miles)

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      08-23-2019 03:01 AM #2
      I'm not an expert in the air suspension system but I did notice that your air reservoir pressure (group 6) is only 3.2 bar, that's way low, should be at >12 psi. With the engine off you can switch on the ignition and you should hear the compressor come on (it's below the spare tire) and run to get the reservoir to come up in pressure. You can also look in the MVBs for the compressor relay to see if it will come on.

      Regarding the ride height measurements I suspect there is a way the system deals with a non-functional ride height sensor. On my parts car there is one sensor that is non-functional but the car still levels itself out perfectly. Even after completely bleeding out the air and having it sit on the bump stops it will still come up and level out even. To test your sensor you could jack up the car, disconnect the sensor level from the lower control arms and then move the sensor levers by hand while watching the corresponding MVB.
      Stephan

      Currently parting out an ’04 V8 Phaeton, CouCou Gray, Anthracite Interior. For details see my post in the classifieds: link

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      08-23-2019 06:21 AM #3
      Thanks for that Stephan. I connected VCDS this morning and turned on the ignition and confirmed that the compressor is not coming on at all. I tried changing the height. Measuring block sees the height adjustment switch coming on, but when I turn the dial CW to raise the vehicle, the relay never comes on. I also went through the Output Tests where it is supposed to raise and lower the vehicle one corner at a time and there is no noticeable sound of the compressor turning on. (Of course there is no way to run output tests while looking at the measuring block at the same time, so I can't say for certain the relay is not coming on.)

      Is it possible I have a bad relay? If so, where is it and how can I test it?

      Paul
      '04 Phaeton W12 (108,000 miles)
      '05 Passat TDI Wagon 5-speed conversion (225,000 miles)
      '03 Jetta GL TDI Wagon 5-speed (338,000 miles)
      '03 Jetta GLS TDI Wagon 5-speed conversion (250,000 miles)
      '13 CC Sport 6-speed (75,000 miles)

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    6. 08-23-2019 08:54 AM #4
      Is there any reason you're avoiding the obvious explanation?? It looks as if the right front strut airbag has failed. Even if the other sensor is reading high, it should still be trying to lift the right one.

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      08-23-2019 09:18 AM #5
      Quote Originally Posted by invisiblewave View Post
      Is there any reason you're avoiding the obvious explanation?? It looks as if the right front strut airbag has failed. Even if the other sensor is reading high, it should still be trying to lift the right one.
      I'm certainly not avoiding it. However, my understanding of the system is (and I could be mistaken) that the compressor would come on and try to lift the car regardless of whether or not there is a hole in the bladder, and that it would continue to pump until reaching 130C, and then turn off until it cooled down, and then come on again. My compressor is not coming on at all and the relay doesn't appear to be turning on either. Also as a side note, since I have owned the car I have never seen a code for the compressor overheating. Does a failed strut somehow notify the compressor that it has failed, thus preventing the compressor from activating? I am still fairly new to this car and trying to understand all of its systems.
      '04 Phaeton W12 (108,000 miles)
      '05 Passat TDI Wagon 5-speed conversion (225,000 miles)
      '03 Jetta GL TDI Wagon 5-speed (338,000 miles)
      '03 Jetta GLS TDI Wagon 5-speed conversion (250,000 miles)
      '13 CC Sport 6-speed (75,000 miles)

    8. 08-23-2019 11:51 AM #6
      As far as I know, the compressor doesn't detect leaks, only temperature. It's easy enough to check by either running the output test and/or monitoring the reservoir pressure. I would think that if the compressor had failed, there'd probably be a fault logged somewhere. I can't recall anyone having to actually change a compressor, although there's a lot of talk about it being overworked if there's a leak. What mileage is on the car? Mine had a small leak for a couple of years I think, and my compressor still runs. The good news is that whether it's a leak or a compressor failure, both are fairly easily, and cheaply, remedied. You can find used compressors on Ebay and also buy reconditioned ones, and it's easy to get to. The strut is even easier, although may cost a bit more. The difficulty will be in making a definitive diagnosis.

      Just for clarity, the compressor doesn't directly lift the car, it charges the reservoir and the struts are inflated from there.

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      08-23-2019 12:37 PM #7
      Quote Originally Posted by invisiblewave View Post
      Just for clarity, the compressor doesn't directly lift the car, it charges the reservoir and the struts are inflated from there.
      Yes, I realize that the compressor does not directly raise the car. It pressurizes a tank. The tank releases air to fill the shocks and raise the car. The compressor cycles on to refill the tank.

      I do not think the problem is only a leak. If there was a leak in the system, air would escape and the car level would drop. Then sensing that the car level had dropped, the compressor would turn on and attempt to raise the level. My point is that the compressor is not turning on. I guess there is the remote possibility that I have two problems. I suppose it's possible that a large leak developed while driving yesterday and the compressor ran continuously and burned itself out so I have a bad compressor and a burst shock bladder. Again, if the compressor failed I would expect to see some VCDS fault related to it.

      I would think that the first step is to determine why the compressor is not coming on. Until I can get the compressor to turn on and start pushing air through the system, there is no way to determine if there is also an air leak. And the compressor will not activate until I can get the relay to turn on. Where is the compressor relay and is there any way to test it? If not, I found it online for $45. I am not a big fan of throwing parts at a problem, but is it maybe worth changing the relay just to eliminate it as a possible problem?

      The output tests for this module are disappointing. I do not see a way to directly cycle the compressor on and off. (I would think there should be.) The output tests are a series of raising and lowering each corner and changing the stiffness of each corner. And when your compressor won't turn on, there is very little raising and lowering going on the output tests are very quiet and uneventful to say the least.

      Oh and to answer the original question, the car has 111,111 miles. I noticed it switch over on the bumpy drive home...
      Last edited by richmondvatdi; 08-23-2019 at 12:52 PM.
      '04 Phaeton W12 (108,000 miles)
      '05 Passat TDI Wagon 5-speed conversion (225,000 miles)
      '03 Jetta GL TDI Wagon 5-speed (338,000 miles)
      '03 Jetta GLS TDI Wagon 5-speed conversion (250,000 miles)
      '13 CC Sport 6-speed (75,000 miles)

    10. 08-23-2019 01:35 PM #8
      There's definitely a way to turn on the compressor from VCDS, I've done it several times. I'll take a look later today. I'm pretty sure you can't do it from the mobile app, it needs to be the full Windoze app. There's also a function to release the pressure from the reservoir.

      If the car dropped suddenly, that would point to an airbag failure rather than a compressor issue.

      One other thing, you can't hear the compressor running from inside the car. It's under the trunk.

    11. Member robbie-rocket-pants's Avatar
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      08-23-2019 01:36 PM #9
      If the Workshop fault is still showing, I suspect that the suspension controller had locked out - that is why the compressor is not being commanded on.

      Check again the ride height sensors. Once these are giving sensible readings to the controller it will start working again and start the compressor.

      This is my guess, having fiddled for many hours with the suspension.

    12. 08-23-2019 01:43 PM #10
      Yep. I agree. My suspension controller is always temperamental after I do any suspension work. It takes a few minutes to even start raising the car, then it's unresponsive to buttons for at least 20 minutes after that.

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      08-23-2019 01:54 PM #11
      There was no audible burst or noticeable drop. It seemed to happen gradually over a 30-mile commute. But considering that it shouldn't drop at all, even over 45 minutes is pretty sudden.

      I only use the full VCDS on my laptop. Never used the app. I will research how to cycle the compressor, but in the meantime if you figure it out please let me know. Thanks for all the help.
      '04 Phaeton W12 (108,000 miles)
      '05 Passat TDI Wagon 5-speed conversion (225,000 miles)
      '03 Jetta GL TDI Wagon 5-speed (338,000 miles)
      '03 Jetta GLS TDI Wagon 5-speed conversion (250,000 miles)
      '13 CC Sport 6-speed (75,000 miles)

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      08-23-2019 03:00 PM #12
      I think I found the procedure: http://wiki.ross-tech.com/wiki/index...eding/Charging

      In the even that it is one of the air bags, has anyone replaced only the bag? Is it a much bigger PITA than replacing the entire unit with a rebuilt one? Are guys like Master Tech just replacing the burst bag or are there other wear components that they are replacing during their rebuild? I see the bags for sale on eBay for between $110 and $150 depending on your year/make/model. This is the one for the 2004 W12: https://t.ly/D5nGr. $112.
      '04 Phaeton W12 (108,000 miles)
      '05 Passat TDI Wagon 5-speed conversion (225,000 miles)
      '03 Jetta GL TDI Wagon 5-speed (338,000 miles)
      '03 Jetta GLS TDI Wagon 5-speed conversion (250,000 miles)
      '13 CC Sport 6-speed (75,000 miles)

    15. 08-23-2019 03:22 PM #13
      Ok, so based on those symptoms, it sounds as if you had a pre-existing leak, then the compressor crapped out and the reservoir eventually ran out of pressure.

      There's a thread about replacing the bag somewhere, but it's not that easy, I think the main problem is getting the big (huge) nut off the top of the strut. Personally, if I were doing it again, I'd buy the VW strut which was down to about $1300 last time I looked. The rebuilds will cost you less, but there's evidence that they're just re-badging the Chinese struts. Changing the strut is very easy, if you've done the ABS, you'll have no difficulty doing the strut.

      Prior to the failure, what was the wear like on your front tyres? Were they wearing on the inside edges, by any chance?

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      08-23-2019 03:53 PM #14
      Quote Originally Posted by invisiblewave View Post
      Ok, so based on those symptoms, it sounds as if you had a pre-existing leak, then the compressor crapped out and the reservoir eventually ran out of pressure.

      There's a thread about replacing the bag somewhere, but it's not that easy, I think the main problem is getting the big (huge) nut off the top of the strut. Personally, if I were doing it again, I'd buy the VW strut which was down to about $1300 last time I looked. The rebuilds will cost you less, but there's evidence that they're just re-badging the Chinese struts. Changing the strut is very easy, if you've done the ABS, you'll have no difficulty doing the strut.

      Prior to the failure, what was the wear like on your front tyres? Were they wearing on the inside edges, by any chance?
      Your last question made me literally laugh out loud! Thanks for that. I just looked back at the VCDS autoscan I ran prior to purchasing the car from the previous owner in September 2017. The car had 108,534. It now has 111,111. I put new tires on it the week after I bought it so these tires have less than 2,500 miles on them. No noticeable wear thus far. Why do you ask?

      I've changed loads of struts on VW's including my B5.5 Passat a couple months ago so I am not intimidated by that part of the job. It may be worth pulling the strut off the car and attempting to remove the big top nut. If I can, I order the bag. If I can't, I ship it to RMT to have them rebuild it. I bought this car strictly as a fun car for my wife and I to take on weekend trips, so dropping another $1,300 on an OEM strut is probably not in the cards. By the way, the total number of fun weekend trips the Phaeton has provided for us in the first 23 months we've had the "pleasure" of owning it -----> zero. Recently I began commenting out loud about how the price of scrap metals has been climbing, and I do it within earshot of the Phaeton (on purpose).
      '04 Phaeton W12 (108,000 miles)
      '05 Passat TDI Wagon 5-speed conversion (225,000 miles)
      '03 Jetta GL TDI Wagon 5-speed (338,000 miles)
      '03 Jetta GLS TDI Wagon 5-speed conversion (250,000 miles)
      '13 CC Sport 6-speed (75,000 miles)

    17. 08-23-2019 04:03 PM #15
      I'm not sure what price the Mastertech struts are now, but by the time I'd paid for the shipping, mine was $900+ anyway, and I then had to send that one back, which cost more shipping. The only advantage I can see other than a small cost benefit, is that they come with a lifetime warranty. Shop around for a VW AD strut before you pull the trigger.

      What happens, I think, when you have a leak is that it's impossible to set the camber correctly, which is why so many people report wear on the inside edges. It wasn't until I replaced my front left strut and had it aligned again that my tyres finally stopped wearing unevenly (they're still wearing fast though, which is why I only buy tyres with a mileage warranty so at least they're half price).

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      08-23-2019 06:01 PM #16
      Quote Originally Posted by invisiblewave View Post
      I'm not sure what price the Mastertech struts are now, but by the time I'd paid for the shipping, mine was $900+ anyway, and I then had to send that one back, which cost more shipping. The only advantage I can see other than a small cost benefit, is that they come with a lifetime warranty. Shop around for a VW AD strut before you pull the trigger.

      What happens, I think, when you have a leak is that it's impossible to set the camber correctly, which is why so many people report wear on the inside edges. It wasn't until I replaced my front left strut and had it aligned again that my tyres finally stopped wearing unevenly (they're still wearing fast though, which is why I only buy tyres with a mileage warranty so at least they're half price).
      I got home and was able to charge the pressure accumulator (Basic Settings Group 023). It goes up to just under 16 bar which must be the fill value. It stopped at 14 the first time so I ran it again and it went to 16 fairly quickly and stopped. I then switched to Group 024 (Charge front axles). That went up to 10.09 bar and stopped. I ran it again and it stopped at 10.09 so I assume that is the top limit. The front end came up to about 700mm edge of fender (370mm from center of wheel). I have to stop now because we have dinner guests coming over in 30 minutes and if my wife comes home and finds me in the garage with the Phaeton instead of polishing silver or folding napkins or whatever is on my to-do list, this could very well be my last post ever.

      Later tonight I will go back and see where the level is. I'm guessing it will be back down on the stops.

      One last note. As an FYI Rebuild Master Tech is $425 plus shipping according to their website. Even if that's another $50 each way, I'd still only be at $525 or so. When I looked at them a year or so ago, I thought I remember them being quite a bit more expensive. Anyway, signing off...
      '04 Phaeton W12 (108,000 miles)
      '05 Passat TDI Wagon 5-speed conversion (225,000 miles)
      '03 Jetta GL TDI Wagon 5-speed (338,000 miles)
      '03 Jetta GLS TDI Wagon 5-speed conversion (250,000 miles)
      '13 CC Sport 6-speed (75,000 miles)

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      08-24-2019 03:31 AM #17
      Quote Originally Posted by richmondvatdi View Post
      Thanks for sharing the link, I'll give this a shot on my parts car and see what it does.
      Stephan

      Currently parting out an ’04 V8 Phaeton, CouCou Gray, Anthracite Interior. For details see my post in the classifieds: link

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      08-24-2019 04:28 AM #18
      Quote Originally Posted by Phaetonlvr View Post
      With the engine off you can switch on the ignition and you should hear the compressor come on (it's below the spare tire) and run to get the reservoir to come up in pressure.
      I think it's supposed to be in front (forward of) the left battery although I haven's seen it in person. I think it's shown in the Bentley under "Component Locations". I think it's also shown in a thread here.

      The stuff under the spare tire well are EVAP components of which I am well versed due to Utah's cursed annual emissions inspection and me replacing the LDP and some of the hoses under there and the dealer replacing the vacuum hoses going from there to the engine.

      This is what the junk under the bump in the spare tire well looks like. You can see the bottom cover (#16):

      https://volkswagen.7zap.com/en/usa/p.../2/201-201096/

    21. 08-24-2019 09:08 AM #19
      The compressor is, as Stephan says under where the spare tyre is, it's easy to get to.

      It sounds as if we've established this isn't a compressor problem though, just the usual leaky strut. For that price, Rebuild Mastertech are well worth trying. If you're not in a rush, I'd ask them if they can refurbish your own strut and send it back to you. Fedex shipping for me was $150.

    22. Member robbie-rocket-pants's Avatar
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      08-24-2019 12:14 PM #20
      I'm still thinking it's a level sensor problem, given that the O.P. said:

      "They showed LF=234mm, RF=49mm. Those values are supposed to represent the distance from the centerline of the wheel to the underside of the fender edge. Since the entire front end is sitting very low and (it appears) level, those numbers should be fairly close".

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      08-24-2019 12:20 PM #21
      Agree that the compressor is fine.

      At 6AM just before leaving town for the weekend I checked the height and it was still at 700mm. In 12 hours it did not drop even 1mm. Even with a slow leak I would expect at least some measurable drop after 12 hours, right?
      '04 Phaeton W12 (108,000 miles)
      '05 Passat TDI Wagon 5-speed conversion (225,000 miles)
      '03 Jetta GL TDI Wagon 5-speed (338,000 miles)
      '03 Jetta GLS TDI Wagon 5-speed conversion (250,000 miles)
      '13 CC Sport 6-speed (75,000 miles)

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      08-24-2019 01:41 PM #22
      One of my son's front level sensors crumped. It generated Fault Level Workshop. I'm sure you've checked those though.
      Steve
      Philadelphia

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      08-24-2019 02:58 PM #23
      Quote Originally Posted by steveskinr View Post
      One of my son's front level sensors crumped. It generated Fault Level Workshop. I'm sure you've checked those though.
      I haven't yet although they were fine when I bled the brakes a few days ago. Plus I'd expect to see a code if one was not sending a signal. I'll take a look when I get back home tomorrow night. I'm still perplexed that the suspension seems to be holding pressure.
      '04 Phaeton W12 (108,000 miles)
      '05 Passat TDI Wagon 5-speed conversion (225,000 miles)
      '03 Jetta GL TDI Wagon 5-speed (338,000 miles)
      '03 Jetta GLS TDI Wagon 5-speed conversion (250,000 miles)
      '13 CC Sport 6-speed (75,000 miles)

    26. Member robbie-rocket-pants's Avatar
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      08-26-2019 03:16 AM #24
      I'd guess your left front sensor arm has become detached and is "dangling" giving the erronously high reading.

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      08-26-2019 02:08 PM #25
      Quote Originally Posted by robbie-rocket-pants View Post
      I'd guess your left front sensor arm has become detached and is "dangling" giving the erronously high reading.
      Got home very very late last night and didn't have time to get under the car to look at the sensors, but I did take a few seconds to check the level. It looks like it may have dropped 1 or 2mm but that could be just due to the angle I was looking at the tape measure. I hope to have time tonight to check the sensors and report back. Is it possible that the system saw a very high reading from the left sensor and intentionally dumped the pressure to bring it down? Does the system have the ability to lower just one corner (as opposed to both front wheels) at one time?
      '04 Phaeton W12 (108,000 miles)
      '05 Passat TDI Wagon 5-speed conversion (225,000 miles)
      '03 Jetta GL TDI Wagon 5-speed (338,000 miles)
      '03 Jetta GLS TDI Wagon 5-speed conversion (250,000 miles)
      '13 CC Sport 6-speed (75,000 miles)

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