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    Thread: Production 2020 Porsche Taycan officially revealed in top-end Turbo and Turbo S guises

    1. 09-04-2019 06:09 PM #76
      Quote Originally Posted by DrivinAW8 View Post
      So, I like the Taycan and am excited to see them on the road and am glad Porsche/VWAG is in the electric game for real.


      BUT.


      This just goes to show you that a majority of the Tesla hate is purely irrational. Porsche/VWAG have billions of engineering dollars, a carte blanch approach to corporate electriciation, the benefit of over a decade of electrification advancement prior to their entry, AND mitigation of market risk for high-dollar EV entries that Tesla paved with the initial high-po Model S and Model X. Yet here we are in 2019 and they are just releasing a car that:

      • is less efficient than a Tesla
      • is slower than a Tesla
      • has less range than a Tesla
      • has fewer functional driver aids than a Tesla
      • has way more screens than a Tesla
      • seats fewer people than a Tesla
      • has a smaller charging network than a Tesla
      • costs far more than a Tesla
      • is made of more foreign parts than a Tesla



      About the only thing this has on a Tesla is this mythical beast called 'fit and finish'. And maybe (maybe) worker's labor conditions. Anyone want to rebuke me?
      I agree - it is beautiful, not as good as the Mission E, but still good nonetheless. At the same time, it really makes the Teslas look amazeballs by comparison, especially the lowly $55k M3P. The efficiency numbers are Jaguar abysmal for literally no greater performance. For all of the haterade served to Tesla, I am still waiting on the elusive Tesla killer.

      Personally, I'll take a white on white Dual Motor Model 3 for $50k, and a base 718 Boxster for $60k, and call it a day.
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    3. 09-04-2019 06:43 PM #77
      Quote Originally Posted by DrivinAW8 View Post
      So, I like the Taycan and am excited to see them on the road and am glad Porsche/VWAG is in the electric game for real.


      BUT.


      This just goes to show you that a majority of the Tesla hate is purely irrational. Porsche/VWAG have billions of engineering dollars, a carte blanch approach to corporate electriciation, the benefit of over a decade of electrification advancement prior to their entry, AND mitigation of market risk for high-dollar EV entries that Tesla paved with the initial high-po Model S and Model X. Yet here we are in 2019 and they are just releasing a car that:

      • is less efficient than a Tesla
      • is slower than a Tesla
      • has less range than a Tesla
      • has fewer functional driver aids than a Tesla
      • has way more screens than a Tesla
      • seats fewer people than a Tesla
      • has a smaller charging network than a Tesla
      • costs far more than a Tesla
      • is made of more foreign parts than a Tesla



      About the only thing this has on a Tesla is this mythical beast called 'fit and finish'. And maybe (maybe) worker's labor conditions. Anyone want to rebuke me?
      What characterizes a Porsche?
      What customes like about Porsche?
      Another league regarding performance on and off the track (including acceleration and stopping power) compared to the Tesla?
      How good is its handling and high-speed stability (something closer to a 911 driving experience) compared to the Tesla?
      Is it also more confortable than a Tesla?

    4. Member Tommietank's Avatar
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      09-04-2019 07:13 PM #78
      Quote Originally Posted by sp_wh View Post
      What characterizes a Porsche?
      What customes like about Porsche?
      Another league regarding performance on and off the track (including acceleration and stopping power) compared to the Tesla?
      How good is its handling and high-speed stability (something closer to a 911 driving experience) compared to the Tesla?
      Is it also more confortable than a Tesla?

      Both of you are correct. It's going to come down to what buyers want. You can buy a Hellcat Charger and a Panamera Turbo too. Both different flavors of high HP forced induction ICE sedans. I'm just surprised at the efficiency miss. I wonder what Taycan buyers think about the lack of supercharger network. Hawk, any thoughts on the missing network?
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    5. Senior Member bzcat's Avatar
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      09-04-2019 07:21 PM #79
      Quote Originally Posted by absoluteczech View Post
      As I said in the other big Taycan thread, there will be 2 buyers. Ones that are after the badge and the others that already own a P car and want this instead of a Panamera in their fleet for hauling the family.

      And I'm far from a Tesla fanboi
      Yep... this car is not really a Tesla competitor per se. The upcoming eTron GT is Model S competitor.

      Remember, this is a Porsche... what Porsche doesn't command a price premium over similar vehicles from lesser brands. Is Macan S really 20% better than SQ5? It's all about the Porsche badge premium.

    6. 09-04-2019 07:35 PM #80
      Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
      Funny story. About 20 years ago I bought one of the first HD TV. It was a Sony. It was CRT. It weighed about 500 lbs. There was only two channels broadcasting in HD (I think CTV and CBS at the time) and only like one show a week in HD (I think CSI Miami or something) It was a total waste of money.

      Long story short, might be better to wait a little longer on new tech. Not be an early adopter on this electric stuff.
      Smart move. As we all know, this 2020 Porsche will be one of the very first EVs to market. Who knows what sort of experience you might be in for?
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    7. Member Hajduk's Avatar
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      09-04-2019 08:14 PM #81
      Quote Originally Posted by DrivinAW8 View Post
      [*]is made of more foreign parts than a Tesla

    8. 09-04-2019 09:01 PM #82
      Quote Originally Posted by TurboMinivan View Post
      Smart move. As we all know, this 2020 Porsche will be one of the very first EVs to market. Who knows what sort of experience you might be in for?
      I see what you did there...
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    9. Member DrivinAW8's Avatar
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      09-04-2019 09:01 PM #83
      Hajduk, I threw that one in there for the ‘made in murica’ crowd.

      I will admit Porsche’s fit and finish is very impressive... a trend that really only began with the 997. And yes, they have brand cachet. However, Tesla has that too, for a different crowd.

      I am interested in an apples for apples comparison. How will a Taycan 4S stack up against a Model S Standard Range? Price, range, performance?

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      09-04-2019 09:28 PM #84
      This looks pretty low rent for nearing $200k, not even piano black. That said the car is pretty tits.





      Last edited by 2000JettaGLXVR6; 09-04-2019 at 09:32 PM.

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      09-04-2019 11:23 PM #85
      My thoughts:

      - been following this car since the Mission E concept debut. And I always knew that I was never going to afford it. Looks like I proved myself even more correct. But if Porsche feels compelled to offer such high prices and the most high-end examples first, and they are confident they will be able to sell all of them to the anxious waiters and pre-orders, then that's a testament to both Porsche as a company and the buyers of Porsche
      - design-wise, it is everything I thought it would be from concept to final production model
      - I personally have no problems with the "Turbo" badging. If they've been doing it already for all their other cars--the 911, the Panamera, the Macan and Cayenne--then I can't imagine their buyers wanting it to be called anything else. Plus it has a decent-sounding roll off the tongue to it ("Taycan Turbo", "Taycan Turbo S", etc.)
      - Shorter than a Panamera...I find it difficult to believe from Autogefuhl's overview that this is something Tesla Model S buyers will be cross-shopping. The two don't seem to have the same mission statement. I think the Taycan will serve those looking for something less soft and where space doesn't matter
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      09-04-2019 11:35 PM #86
      It will be interesting to see the inevitable comparison tests between the Taycan and the Model S. One area where Porsche seems to be ahead is heat management. The Taycan is able to rip off repeated launches and did a pretty good time at the Nurburgring. The Model S overheated in less than a lap at VIR during C/D's lightning lap.
      Quote Originally Posted by 20aeman View Post
      No, the real enthusiast vehicle would be the RX8. It combines V12 Lamborghini gas mileage with Hyundai Genesis 4cyl. performance.

    13. Member Tommietank's Avatar
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      09-05-2019 01:30 AM #87
      Quote Originally Posted by Double-V View Post
      It will be interesting to see the inevitable comparison tests between the Taycan and the Model S. One area where Porsche seems to be ahead is heat management. The Taycan is able to rip off repeated launches and did a pretty good time at the Nurburgring. The Model S overheated in less than a lap at VIR during C/D's lightning lap.
      Seems like the Model 3 is really the third gen tech of cooling for Teslas that fixed cooling issues but thats not what we are comparing here. Porsche is all about this "repeatable" performance and I believe them but do we care? Seems like all we do in our cars is gun it from stoplights to impress our friends. Tesla owners love to visit the drag strip and do fine but are they clamoring for faster laps at VIR? Is anyone yelling out for a faster Ring' time for the Panamera or Cayenne? I get that Porsche is trying to differentiate itself with "repeatable" performance but it's a marketing gimmick to me. Any EV today will give me the performance I expect leaving the Chipotle parking lot.
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    14. 09-05-2019 01:49 AM #88
      Nice EV. I wonder how their Electrify America is coming along. Also, I wonder what the total cabin space is for this thing compared to a Panamera. People may complain about the price but the Taycan Turbo S has more power than a Panamera Turbo S e-hybrid. They both weigh the same. The Panamera is a lot faster but the Taycan is a bit quicker. I've heard the Panamera is getting updated next year with 825 Horsepowers. This tells me that Porsche does not want the Taycan to be the top-dog sedan in their lineup. Personally, I'd take the Panamera because of range anxiety but this is a very good looking first try for Porsche. It should bring in new customers.

      Quote Originally Posted by Tommietank View Post
      Seems like the Model 3 is really the third gen tech of cooling for Teslas that fixed cooling issues but thats not what we are comparing here. Porsche is all about this "repeatable" performance and I believe them but do we care? Seems like all we do in our cars is gun it from stoplights to impress our friends. Tesla owners love to visit the drag strip and do fine but are they clamoring for faster laps at VIR? Is anyone yelling out for a faster Ring' time for the Panamera or Cayenne? I get that Porsche is trying to differentiate itself with "repeatable" performance but it's a marketing gimmick to me. Any EV today will give me the performance I expect leaving the Chipotle parking lot.
      Racing is their heritage so performance is absolutely important to them. Also, with one of the main weaknesses of performance EVs resolved, Porsche can create a high performance version of either the Taycan or maybe even their hallowed 911 line. Remember, Porsche was constantly at death's door financially until they started building SUVs and sedans. That brought in new types of customers who are underwriting their performance and high performance line. So this Taycan may not be for the traditional customers but, in order to save money, it needs to be the basis for future performance variants.
      Last edited by Reisner; 09-05-2019 at 02:00 AM.

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      09-05-2019 07:40 AM #89
      Quote Originally Posted by DrivinAW8 View Post
      So, I like the Taycan and am excited to see them on the road and am glad Porsche/VWAG is in the electric game for real.


      BUT.


      This just goes to show you that a majority of the Tesla hate is purely irrational. Porsche/VWAG have billions of engineering dollars, a carte blanch approach to corporate electriciation, the benefit of over a decade of electrification advancement prior to their entry, AND mitigation of market risk for high-dollar EV entries that Tesla paved with the initial high-po Model S and Model X. Yet here we are in 2019 and they are just releasing a car that:

      • is less efficient than a Tesla
      • is slower than a Tesla
      • has less range than a Tesla
      • has fewer functional driver aids than a Tesla
      • has way more screens than a Tesla
      • seats fewer people than a Tesla
      • has a smaller charging network than a Tesla
      • costs far more than a Tesla
      • is made of more foreign parts than a Tesla



      About the only thing this has on a Tesla is this mythical beast called 'fit and finish'. And maybe (maybe) worker's labor conditions. Anyone want to rebuke me?
      I was just having this conversation with a friend, this morning.
      It really goes to show how far ahead of its time the Model S is/was.
      Here's a 7 year old car that started development 4 years prior to its launch, and it is still ahead of its newly launched closest competitor in key measures.
      The Model S has been available for purchase/tear down/reverse-engineering for SEVEN years and no OEM has even come close until just now.
      Shame on GM/Ford/Toyota/Nissan/Honda/Hyundai-Kia/BMW/Benz/FCA.

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      09-05-2019 08:18 AM #90
      Quote Originally Posted by 2000JettaGLXVR6 View Post
      This looks pretty low rent for nearing $200k, not even piano black.
      Really low res pics with 0% context will do that 60% of the time, 100% of the time
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    17. 09-05-2019 08:23 AM #91
      Quote Originally Posted by whitejeep1989 View Post
      I was just having this conversation with a friend, this morning.
      It really goes to show how far ahead of its time the Model S is/was.
      Here's a 7 year old car that started development 4 years prior to its launch, and it is still ahead of its newly launched closest competitor in key measures.
      The Model S has been available for purchase/tear down/reverse-engineering for SEVEN years and no OEM has even come close until just now.
      Shame on GM/Ford/Toyota/Nissan/Honda/Hyundai-Kia/BMW/Benz/FCA.
      Those companies are actually in the business of making money, unlike Tesla. Also, no one was in a rush to imitate Tesla, good and bad, since the infrastructure literally has to be built from scratch. With that said, I commend Musk and Tesla for blazing this trail. It hasn't been easy and it'll only get more difficult as more competitors come online. But they should be thanked for moving the industry forward, even if it depended on government largess. Their secret sauce is in the software management. It's only a matter of time before others catch up to it. Or even surpass it with hardware and software. I read the other day that Lamborghini's new EV uses super-capacitors instead of regular Li-On batteries. This means it's both more powerful and lighter. Given the price range Lambo's play in, I can see Porsche getting this tech eventually. In a way, VW really is the leader in EV tech now. But I'm not sure how good Germans are when it comes to software...

      Quote Originally Posted by 2000JettaGLXVR6 View Post
      This looks pretty low rent for nearing $200k, not even piano black. That said the car is pretty tits.





      If you've ever optioned a Porsche you'll know that Porsche did that on purpose.

    18. 09-05-2019 09:40 AM #92
      Quote Originally Posted by Tommietank View Post
      I wonder what Taycan buyers think about the lack of supercharger network. Hawk, any thoughts on the missing network?
      Honestly the missing network doesn't bug me at all. In terms of what I'd be driving I'll never ever go beyond this car's range in one day of driving and I'd always be able to fully charge it at home every night. Just like recharging my phone every night.

      If someone said to you, there are no gas stations except a gas station in your driveway that you can use every single night, would you worry about no gas stations?

    19. 09-05-2019 09:41 AM #93
      So I've just called my dealership to refund my deposit. Hawc out!

      The four year dream is over.

    20. Member Tommietank's Avatar
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      09-05-2019 09:46 AM #94
      Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
      So I've just called my dealership to refund my deposit. Hawc out!

      The four year dream is over.
      Damn that sucks. Sooo Model 3 P Stealth for $50k? Did you get those in Cananda?
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      09-05-2019 09:59 AM #95
      Random thoughts...

      Anyone dropping near $200k on this already has a fleet of cars including an amazing sports car and a luxury suv.

      I do not see this as a Model S competitor.

      I think Porsche is right to make this really different vs the Tesla offerings.

      All just guesses of course.

    22. 09-05-2019 10:05 AM #96
      Quote Originally Posted by Tommietank View Post
      Damn that sucks. Sooo Model 3 P Stealth for $50k? Did you get those in Cananda?
      Honestly, the Tesla just lets me down too much in the looks department. Especially in the interior. Just way too boring in there.

      I wish Audi would buy the Model 3 'skateboard' and make a gorgeous looking sedan.

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      09-05-2019 10:06 AM #97
      Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
      Hawc out!
      Sorry, Hawk.

      There will certainly be a cheaper one, but how much cheaper is only speculation at this point. Relatively "affordable" electric Porsches are just a matter of time.



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      09-05-2019 10:10 AM #98
      Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
      Honestly, the Tesla just lets me down too much in the looks department. Especially in the interior. Just way too boring in there.

      I wish Audi would buy the Model 3 'skateboard' and make a gorgeous looking sedan.
      I would put a BMW 4 series coupe body on it. I was behind a 435i a few days ago and it has a really nice rear end.

    25. 09-05-2019 10:36 AM #99
      Quote Originally Posted by DrivinAW8 View Post
      So, I like the Taycan and am excited to see them on the road and am glad Porsche/VWAG is in the electric game for real.


      BUT.


      This just goes to show you that a majority of the Tesla hate is purely irrational. Porsche/VWAG have billions of engineering dollars, a carte blanch approach to corporate electriciation, the benefit of over a decade of electrification advancement prior to their entry, AND mitigation of market risk for high-dollar EV entries that Tesla paved with the initial high-po Model S and Model X. Yet here we are in 2019 and they are just releasing a car that:

      • is less efficient than a Tesla
      • is slower than a Tesla
      • has less range than a Tesla
      • has fewer functional driver aids than a Tesla
      • has way more screens than a Tesla
      • seats fewer people than a Tesla
      • has a smaller charging network than a Tesla
      • costs far more than a Tesla
      • is made of more foreign parts than a Tesla



      About the only thing this has on a Tesla is this mythical beast called 'fit and finish'. And maybe (maybe) worker's labor conditions. Anyone want to rebuke me?
      Except for the fact that Porsche is ultra conservative with their numbers. I have no doubt that it will match or beat a P100D in a drag race - at least the Turbo S version will.

      I suspect the efficiency could be under rated too but that remains to be seen. Keep in mind tire choice has a lot to do with range. I don't know what tires are on a P100D but I would not be surprised if the Taycan wore stickier tires.

      As for the screens, at least we know that they will work in extreme temperatures - and continue working. That's something that can't be said of Tesla's screens.

      As for the charging network, well I think all this stuff is in its infancy. In 3 years, we'll see about networks.

      As for cost, well it's a Porsche. You pay the Porsche tax if you want a Porsche, period. All those people thinking this thing would be cheap were dillusional.

      As for the foreign parts, I couldn't care less personally.

    26. 09-05-2019 10:48 AM #100
      As best as I can tell, P100D has 245/265 width tires, Turbo S has 265/305 width tires. So substantially more rolling resistance even if the tire compounds are the same, which I highly doubt.

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