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    Thread: Lexus hasn't made a profit in 2 years...

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      09-10-2019 04:34 PM #126
      Quote Originally Posted by The_Real_Stack View Post
      I'm not talking about the advertising itself, I'm talking about the position in the market. What does Genesis bring to the market that isn't already there? Just a low price, and generic looks. BMW is sporty, MB is luxury/stately, Audi is styling, Lexus is reliable, Genesis is...cheap.
      I mean, there's value in that. What does a $65K M340i do that a $45K G70 3.3T doesn't, besides have the right badge? Plus the G20 looks like a Lexus from the back. I'd also argue that the Germans aren't exactly holding up to their promises. BMW has dialed back the sport significantly over the last decade across most of their lineup. There's nothing luxurious/stately about a CLA/GLA. Audi has been in design paralysis for a decade... you have to be a forensic scientist to tell the generations apart. All at a premium against the likes of Genesis & Lexus. What's the value proposition there?

      So while I agree that the luxury market is absolutely saturated, complacency and incompetence by the incumbents has presented some opportunity. What do Audi/BMW do that warrants the 20-40% premium they charge over Genesis? I don't think Genesis' dealer problems are worth five figure sums.

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      09-10-2019 04:54 PM #127
      Quote Originally Posted by CTK View Post
      I mean, there's value in that. What does a $65K M340i do that a $45K G70 3.3T doesn't, besides have the right badge? Plus the G20 looks like a Lexus from the back. I'd also argue that the Germans aren't exactly holding up to their promises. BMW has dialed back the sport significantly over the last decade across most of their lineup. There's nothing luxurious/stately about a CLA/GLA. Audi has been in design paralysis for a decade... you have to be a forensic scientist to tell the generations apart. All at a premium against the likes of Genesis & Lexus. What's the value proposition there?

      So while I agree that the luxury market is absolutely saturated, complacency and incompetence by the incumbents has presented some opportunity. What do Audi/BMW do that warrants the 20-40% premium they charge over Genesis? I don't think Genesis' dealer problems are worth five figure sums.

      The problem is, if you are looking for value, you can spend a lot less. What does a $65k Mercedes E300 do that a loaded Camry or Accord can't? Realistically, not much. So what regular people (not enthusiasts) in those market segments are paying for are intangibles, and a huge intangible is brand name.

      If you want to gain sales in those segments, you need to be something that A) existing brands don't offer and B) people shopping in those segments WANT. People looking to spend $65k on a Mercedes are specifically NOT looking to drive something that screams "I bought this because it was cheaper than a Mercedes."
      Quote Originally Posted by Volkl View Post
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      09-10-2019 09:09 PM #128
      Quote Originally Posted by The_Real_Stack View Post
      The problem is, if you are looking for value, you can spend a lot less. What does a $65k Mercedes E300 do that a loaded Camry or Accord can't? Realistically, not much. So what regular people (not enthusiasts) in those market segments are paying for are intangibles, and a huge intangible is brand name.

      If you want to gain sales in those segments, you need to be something that A) existing brands don't offer and B) people shopping in those segments WANT. People looking to spend $65k on a Mercedes are specifically NOT looking to drive something that screams "I bought this because it was cheaper than a Mercedes."
      You are confusing value with cheap. Someone looking to spend $60K+ on a car probably still wants value. For most people in that price range value is tied to brand. But for someone who wants the most content/performance for their money, the Germans are terrible, and brands like Genesis, Lexus, Infiniti etc make sense.

      Genesis' main problem isn't the brand's image. It's the abysmal rollout and the complete lack of crossovers. The crossover situation is more dire and doesn't need strong branding to succeed. The top selling midsize crossover is a warmed over Toyota Highlander.

    5. 09-10-2019 10:40 PM #129
      Quote Originally Posted by CTK View Post
      I mean, there's value in that. What does a $65K M340i do that a $45K G70 3.3T doesn't, besides have the right badge? Plus the G20 looks like a Lexus from the back. I'd also argue that the Germans aren't exactly holding up to their promises. BMW has dialed back the sport significantly over the last decade across most of their lineup. There's nothing luxurious/stately about a CLA/GLA. Audi has been in design paralysis for a decade... you have to be a forensic scientist to tell the generations apart. All at a premium against the likes of Genesis & Lexus. What's the value proposition there?

      So while I agree that the luxury market is absolutely saturated, complacency and incompetence by the incumbents has presented some opportunity. What do Audi/BMW do that warrants the 20-40% premium they charge over Genesis? I don't think Genesis' dealer problems are worth five figure sums.
      Because you're still spending $45,000, not an insignificant sum....on a G70. A compact car that lacks any heritage, brand recognition, original and desirable styling, reliability history, projected resale value, or really anything that could be construed as uniquely desirable above and beyond just a lower price over its competition. Even its performance, while better for the money than the competition, is not trend setting or a conversation piece (unlike the Cadillacs). It's an anonymous blob of a car more at home in an insurance commercial than parked among premium brands.

      Furthermore I think a big problem for value luxury brands is that when you lease these cars, the price difference factor is not as big.

      As far as Lexus is concerned, it has a very strong brand and a proven track record, but the effort in terms of powertrain and cutting edge platforms is not there in cars like the IS, GS, RC, GX, or LX. This is probably because Akio Toyoda took over, had the bean counters look at the product, and started focusing on the volume money makers, not realizing that ignoring your prestige products is a great way to kill your prestige brand.

      He wanted to kill the GS, half assed the RC, dragged his feet on the LS, and only built the LC because everyone in the media told him to - but the LC was poorly marketed and priced, and failures there will probably have Akio falsely conclude that it too should be killed, in favor of another ****ty entry level product like the UX or maybe that ugly city car thing they've been toying with.
      Last edited by tejlab; 09-10-2019 at 10:53 PM.

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      09-11-2019 09:24 AM #130
      Quote Originally Posted by tejlab View Post
      Because you're still spending $45,000, not an insignificant sum....on a G70. A compact car that lacks any heritage, brand recognition, original and desirable styling, reliability history, projected resale value, or really anything that could be construed as uniquely desirable above and beyond just a lower price over its competition. Even its performance, while better for the money than the competition, is not trend setting or a conversation piece (unlike the Cadillacs). It's an anonymous blob of a car more at home in an insurance commercial than parked among premium brands.
      I mean, I drive an Acura, and I see plenty of people in them. If I had $45K to spend on a luxury sedan, it would probably be between a new TLX SH-AWD Advance and a G70 3.3T. Why?

      Heritage, brand recognition? Some people don't give a **** about that (as evidenced by the existence of luxury brands without either). Desirable styling? The only good looking cars in this segment are the C-Class and Giulia. Everything else, including the German offerings, are somewhere on the spectrum of boring/derivative (3er, A4, CT4/ATS) or ugly (IS). A $45K sedan that can give trouble to a $60K BMW is a conversation starter- this was Infiniti's successful play with the original G35, remember?

      Plus what can you really get for $45K from brands with "heritage and brand recognition"? A $45K 3er/A4/C-Class is almost not even worth buying, unless you are a completely shameless brand whore. None of them are worth ~$10K more than something like an Accord Touring, and I'd venture a guess that the only reason anyone gets them at all is because of how cheap they lease for. For the same monthly payment some people would rather have a stripper Benz than a loaded Honda I guess. Value means different things to different people.

      Quote Originally Posted by tejlab View Post
      Furthermore I think a big problem for value luxury brands is that when you lease these cars, the price difference factor is not as big.
      This applies to some degree, but brand aside you still get more for your money with Genesis IMO.

      Quote Originally Posted by tejlab View Post
      As far as Lexus is concerned, it has a very strong brand and a proven track record, but the effort in terms of powertrain and cutting edge platforms is not there in cars like the IS, GS, RC, GX, or LX. This is probably because Akio Toyoda took over, had the bean counters look at the product, and started focusing on the volume money makers, not realizing that ignoring your prestige products is a great way to kill your prestige brand.
      Again, who, besides nameless experts on the internet, is begging for Lexus to make stronger powerplants? There are several luxury brands with newer, more powerful powertrains that would kill to be in Lexus' position. I would personally love Lexus to pump all their vehicles up with more horsepower, but I also see that HP is not an issue for people who actually buy new Lexuses.

      Quote Originally Posted by tejlab View Post
      He wanted to kill the GS, half assed the RC, dragged his feet on the LS, and only built the LC because everyone in the media told him to - but the LC was poorly marketed and priced, and failures there will probably have Akio falsely conclude that it too should be killed, in favor of another ****ty entry level product like the UX or maybe that ugly city car thing they've been toying with.
      I guess I will have to take your word on all that. There is def discontinuity and confusion in Toyota/Lexus' RWD portfolio. You have the old platform the IS/RC/GS is on, then the new one the LS/LC are on, and then the Zupr4. Definitely seems to be a lack of cohesion and direction there, but frankly Toyota can afford it. At this point I don't even know if it's worth the cost to align everything. Focusing on crossovers is the more rational play. Just at a quick glance YTD the RX handily outsells all Lexus' sedans combined. NX handily outsells all Lexus' RWD sedans. Etc. Pls don't tell me you're a halo car believer. Shareholders are out for blood and we're heading into a recession. Time to batten down the hatches and make money, not statements.
      Last edited by CTK; 09-11-2019 at 09:27 AM.

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      09-11-2019 10:05 AM #131
      Quote Originally Posted by CTK View Post
      Desirable styling? The only good looking cars in this segment are the C-Class and Giulia. Everything else, including the German offerings, are somewhere on the spectrum of boring/derivative (3er, A4, CT4/ATS) or ugly (IS).
      I still think the Q50, especially Red Sport version still looks better than all these and it is probably the oldest of the bunch.

      The Giulia is pretty interesting styling wise, but I think Mercedes is turning all their sedans into bars of soap with zero styling character.

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      09-11-2019 10:21 AM #132
      Quote Originally Posted by DrewSXR View Post
      I still think the Q50, especially Red Sport version still looks better than all these and it is probably the oldest of the bunch.

      The Giulia is pretty interesting styling wise, but I think Mercedes is turning all their sedans into bars of soap with zero styling character.
      I have mixed feelings about the Q50. It's not ugly and it has a little character. But the Giulia is on a whole other level.

      You are kind of right about Benz, at least on the exterior. But their interiors are the best in the business.

      In any case, the only $45K German cars worth buying, IMO anyway, are Volkswagens (Atlas & Golf R). Well, and maybe the X1, GLB and Q3.
      Last edited by CTK; 09-11-2019 at 11:39 AM.

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      09-11-2019 12:09 PM #133
      Quote Originally Posted by CTK View Post
      I mean, I drive an Acura, and I see plenty of people in them. If I had $45K to spend on a luxury sedan, it would probably be between a new TLX SH-AWD Advance and a G70 3.3T. Why?

      Heritage, brand recognition? Some people don't give a **** about that (as evidenced by the existence of luxury brands without either). Desirable styling? The only good looking cars in this segment are the C-Class and Giulia. Everything else, including the German offerings, are somewhere on the spectrum of boring/derivative (3er, A4, CT4/ATS) or ugly (IS). A $45K sedan that can give trouble to a $60K BMW is a conversation starter- this was Infiniti's successful play with the original G35, remember?

      Plus what can you really get for $45K from brands with "heritage and brand recognition"? A $45K 3er/A4/C-Class is almost not even worth buying, unless you are a completely shameless brand whore. None of them are worth ~$10K more than something like an Accord Touring, and I'd venture a guess that the only reason anyone gets them at all is because of how cheap they lease for. For the same monthly payment some people would rather have a stripper Benz than a loaded Honda I guess. Value means different things to different people.
      Yup. We sat down and said "we want to spend about $50,000 on a family car with an emphasis on back seat comfort" and then we pulled all the full-sized, RWD sedans in the segment. Badge was never, ever a consideration for us and it never will be. We took out a 7-series, but the ride was softer and wallowed more than the Genesis. Plus, the engine was anemic. We took out the S90 (not really the same class), but Sensus was glitchy, the ride was flinty and the NVH was not competitive. The LS was a no-go right out the gate because Lexus' infotainment system is cancer and the air suspension is a money pit. The Continental wasn't on our radar because no thanks to a $50,000 stretched Fusion. CT6 was also out due to GM's political actions. That left the S550, A8L and G90. Both the A8L and S550 were faster, but given we just had a reliability nightmare with the VW, we were really apprehensive with high end Germans. That left the G90: executive rear seat package standard, same NVH as the Mercedes, better ride/handling balance than the BMW, NA V8 that is reliable and has the technology we wanted. That it happens to have a Korean badge was tangential to us.

      Different people have different preferences. I would buy a V6 1LE over a Camaro SS because it ticks all the boxes for me. I would consider an Acura RLX if it wasn't ancient inside.

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      12-02-2019 11:33 PM #134
      TOKYO — New Lexus vehicles have been turning heads lately, but the company's global boss still isn't satisfied with the brand.

      In the span of just one month, Lexus has upped the excitement by introducing a sexy new droptop LC coupe, a new full-electric UX crossover and the attention-getting LF-30 concept car.

      But Lexus International President Yoshihiro Sawa says he is unsatisfied with the premium marque's positioning. Lexus is still a small player on the world stage, behind Germany's Mercedes-Benz, BMW and Audi, he points out. Its brand following varies from market to market. And in the critical U.S. battleground, Lexus is shackled with an aging customer base.

      Sawa doesn't mince words about whether he's content with the shape of things: "Not yet," Sawa said on the sidelines of the Tokyo Motor Show this fall.

      His comments came shortly after Lexus showed its futuristic, wedge-shaped LF-30 electric concept car. And since then, Lexus has unveiled a convertible version of its LC 500 convertible for the U.S., along with a full-electric version of the UX compact crossover for Europe, China and Japan.

      New offerings may help Lexus tackle one key weak point: low volume and variety.

      "Considering global sales volume, Lexus is still small," Sawa said. "We have to compete with our limited volume. That is our difficulty."

      The brand's U.S. sales fell 1.5 percent through October, while BMW advanced 3.8 percent and Mercedes-Benz slipped 0.3 percent, excluding vans. Lexus remains No. 3 in luxury sales behind No. 1 BMW and second-place Mercedes.

      Lexus last held the top slot in 2010, its final championship in an 11-year reign.

      But Lexus is also struggling with a brand image that varies by market, Sawa said. In some markets, especially in Asia, Lexus is seen as a hip brand for young people. But not so much in others. In the U.S., Lexus enjoys high customer loyalty, but its average customer is in their 60s, Sawa said. In China and other Asian markets, the average customer age is in the 30s.

      "They are completely different customers," Sawa said. "We have to provide the same kind of brand image campaign, but we have to be careful about each nation's activities."

      Sawa said the challenge is providing a unified global brand campaign that can also tailor the message for local needs.

      Lexus is trying to do just that with localized marketing campaigns in the U.S. such as its new "Our Greatest Curiosity" campaign.

      It asks questions such as "What emotion fits in the palm of your hand?" and "Can the weather predict you?" or "Can you see with your ears?"

      The goal is to highlight the human-centric technologies of the brand inspired by an initial spark of curiosity and engineering ingenuity.
      https://www.autonews.com/sales/lexus...medium=twitter

      Glad to see someone realize that there is a problem with the brand. I think Lexus has been underfunded as of late, with all the money going to the Toyota brand instead.
      Last edited by got-rice; 12-02-2019 at 11:36 PM.

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      12-03-2019 08:37 AM #135
      Quote Originally Posted by got-rice View Post
      https://www.autonews.com/sales/lexus...medium=twitter

      Glad to see someone realize that there is a problem with the brand. I think Lexus has been underfunded as of late, with all the money going to the Toyota brand instead.
      Lexus has fewer models than BMW and Mercedes, so their number 3 position isn't surprising.
      The German Big Two have coupe versions of each CUV, coupe versions of each sedan, and sedan versions of each coupe.
      Lexus doesn't offer the range diversity, but still sells a decent number of products. Maybe it's time for a Lexus Land Cruiser Coupe?

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      12-03-2019 08:53 AM #136
      Lexus is fighting a war it can't win. The Germans have them beat on brand equity... in Mercedes case, thoroughly... and that's like 80% of the battle in the luxury space. Plus Europeans are somewhat nationalistic when it comes to cars (just as anyone is) and I think China/Japan have long standing beef. So where exactly can Lexus gain global market share? They have reached their potential in the marketplace.
      Last edited by CTK; 12-03-2019 at 08:57 AM.

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      12-03-2019 09:03 AM #137
      Maybe they should think of getting rid of their massive front grill.

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      12-03-2019 10:28 AM #138
      Quote Originally Posted by CTK View Post
      Lexus is fighting a war it can't win. The Germans have them beat on brand equity... in Mercedes case, thoroughly... and that's like 80% of the battle in the luxury space. Plus Europeans are somewhat nationalistic when it comes to cars (just as anyone is) and I think China/Japan have long standing beef. So where exactly can Lexus gain global market share? They have reached their potential in the marketplace.
      I think Lexus still has potential for growth in the US and Canada.
      Looking at the segments where Cadillac, Lincoln, GMC, and even Ford are strong, shows where Lexus can still grow.
      The full-sized LWB SUV segment (Suburban/Yukon XL/Escalade and Navigator/Expedition) is a space where Lexus doesn't compete head to head with the domestics.
      The Lexus LX/Land Cruiser is more of a Tahoe or SWB Escalade competitor. Lexus needs a version of the Sequoia.

      Also, I know that Lincoln and Cadillac have previously failed with luxury pick-ups, but Ram, Chevy, GMC, and Ford are selling tons of $65K and up pick-ups.
      Considering the prices of the electric pick-up start-ups (Rivian at $65K, and Bollinger at $100K), I think it might be time for traditional luxury brands to reconsider the pick-up segment.
      A full-sized Lexus pick-up (I can already imagine the horrific grille) could grow their sales, in a segment where BMW and Benz will never follow.
      It would probably appeal to a younger and more male audience.
      Adding hybrid or even full electric tech would help it stand out amongst the domestics.

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      12-03-2019 10:50 AM #139
      I dunno man. There's two issues I see with that. 1 BoF vehicle buyers just skew towards American nameplates. Toyota/Nissan's offerings aren't terrible but outside of the midsize trucks (which only succeeded in a long vacuum of domestic competition) they've basically failed. And 2 I think people who buy $80K pickups like to pretend that the mainstream nameplate makes their purchase humble and modest. A Lexus with just as much chrome/leather/wood would be too ostentatious even for the exact same price.

      There's nowhere else to grow in other segments. There are ~15 luxury brands Lexus competes with at some level in the US (I am not even counting stuff like Bentley or Ferrari etc.). A lot of those brands are gonna have to die or pull out of segments for Lexus to grow in any direction.

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      12-03-2019 11:22 AM #140
      Lexus has a huge opportunity, what they really need is a 3-row CUV in the vein of the MDX or whatever Infiniti calls theirs this week.

      Currently they offer the RX L which has an absolutely microscopic back seat, and they offer the GX which I personally like but in reality is way too truckish for their intended audience (plus is a bazillion years old esp. in the interior styling).

      Give the market a real midsized 3-row (a la MDX) with the fantastic interior from the RX, an updated infotainment system, and tone down the front grill and they'd make an absolute mint.
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      12-03-2019 12:37 PM #141
      Quote Originally Posted by CTK View Post
      I dunno man. There's two issues I see with that. 1 BoF vehicle buyers just skew towards American nameplates. Toyota/Nissan's offerings aren't terrible but outside of the midsize trucks (which only succeeded in a long vacuum of domestic competition) they've basically failed. And 2 I think people who buy $80K pickups like to pretend that the mainstream nameplate makes their purchase humble and modest. A Lexus with just as much chrome/leather/wood would be too ostentatious even for the exact same price.

      There's nowhere else to grow in other segments. There are ~15 luxury brands Lexus competes with at some level in the US (I am not even counting stuff like Bentley or Ferrari etc.). A lot of those brands are gonna have to die or pull out of segments for Lexus to grow in any direction.
      I don't have sales numbers, but I believe Infiniti's big SUV (QX1000ty?) is one of their rare success stories.

      I think the GMC Sierra Denali AT4X has given up humble and modest a long time ago.

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      12-03-2019 12:55 PM #142
      If only Lexus could figure out how to produce pre-owned IS and GS cars to internet fanbois who like to pleasure themselves to the brand's reliability rankings and reputation....they could make a killing. They have to sell them online though, because God knows those dudes can't communicate with live humans at a brick and mortar store.

      As a new car brand, I think it's more popular in the US South where there are more seniors. Around Philly, current gen Lexus models are not very common, mostly just 2nd and 3rd gen RXes. Most people lease premium cars, so why would you get the inferior product if it's not that much cheaper?

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      12-03-2019 01:41 PM #143
      Quote Originally Posted by The_Real_Stack View Post
      Currently they offer the RX L which has an absolutely microscopic back seat, and they offer the GX which I personally like but in reality is way too truckish for their intended audience (plus is a bazillion years old esp. in the interior styling).

      Give the market a real midsized 3-row (a la MDX) with the fantastic interior from the RX, an updated infotainment system, and tone down the front grill and they'd make an absolute mint.
      The numbers bear this out.

      Third row in a GX has basically no legroom. Apparently the RX-L hasn't moved the needle.

      Looking at the latest sales numbers https://pressroom.lexus.com/toyota-m...er-2019-sales/

      RX is down 1.8% on the year, GX is down 3.2%

      Lexus *car* is the ES and IS. Everything else is waaaay down.

      In summary, they're sedan-heavy just like Genesis, and the market wants 3-row utilities.
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      12-03-2019 05:11 PM #144
      I think they were on the right path the last time they revamped the model line and brought out the F-sport trims and expanded the F line to include the GS. They however failed when they removed the IS-F and went forward only with the RC and GS F, they failed again when they didn't do anything else to expand on the F models.

      Sure F sport trims are available on all models, but there aren't many F cars. They have enough small CUV/SUV things to create ample competition for the XM BMW and AMG Benz CUV/SUVs, but they don't develop any. On top of that, the GS-F relies on a NA V8 that is high revving and only produces 467hp which places it in a confusing spot given its price point. All of this leads me to what I believe is Lexus' core problem, Toyota refuses to put any money into R&D for lexus specific, or at least different, drivetrains that cannot already be tapped from existing Toyota vehicles which leaves them with a bunch of reliable, but ho-hum I4t, na v6 and na v8 motors that simply don't stack up against the current competition.

      My final point, simply on a sales basis, is Lexus has failed to capitalize on AWD which i think is hurting them currently. For you northerners, let me explain. I see absolutely no reason anyone in Florida needs AWD. Most of my life AWD cars down here were a rarity save for the truckbros that think they're southern. Suddenly, round about the time Audi exploded in popularity (b7 A4), Quattro awd was a must have and in the twoish decades since there has been an onslaught of AWD all the cars to the point where I think people think its a luxury they should have as though its automatic windows. Now, I know Lexus offers AWD, but its not marketed and has no catchy name (Quattro, X-Drive, 4-Matic, 4-motion, etc.). I have more friends than I can count who have gone and purchased awd variants of BMW/Benz for no reason despite the fact it costs more than a similarly spec'd RWD car, and then they point "yea it's got the X-drive package" or some such nonsense.
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      Prior Vehicles: 13' E92 335i M-Sport l 04' E46 330ci SMG l 04' MKIV GLI 1.8t 6spd

    21. Member
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      small car that does it all, incredibly reliable too
      12-03-2019 05:17 PM #145
      Quote Originally Posted by Sonderwunsch View Post
      I bet if they made the grills a little bigger it would help.
      If they could just make them look a little more like this that might help.


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      Boring silver appliance w/rear disc brakes & TuRD Japan shift knob
      12-03-2019 05:27 PM #146
      Quote Originally Posted by JackStraw79 View Post
      If only Lexus could figure out how to produce pre-owned IS and GS cars to internet fanbois who like to pleasure themselves to the brand's reliability rankings and reputation....they could make a killing. They have to sell them online though, because God knows those dudes can't communicate with live humans at a brick and mortar store.
      Basically, most of Scotty's viewers...and only used because he wouldn't want to get hit with the new car depreciation

    23. Member HarryC's Avatar
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      12-03-2019 07:29 PM #147
      Quote Originally Posted by JackStraw79 View Post
      If only Lexus could figure out how to produce pre-owned IS and GS cars to internet fanbois who like to pleasure themselves to the brand's reliability rankings and reputation....they could make a killing
      Don't forget the free drinks at the cafe in the service department. Just sayin'.

      And let's be real, we're all too fat to fit in an IS.
      Current: 2018 Honda Civic LX 6MT, 2016 Lexus GX460
      Past: 1995 200SX SE-R, 2001 VW Jetta Wolfsburg, 2003 Mini Cooper, 2004 Pontiac GTO, 2001 Chevy Silverado 4.8L, 2001 Olds Intrigue, 1990 e30 BMW 325is, 2004 Honda Odyssey, 1995 Chevy K1500, 2000 Toyota Camry, 2010 Ford Fusion Hybrid, 2009 Toyota Sienna

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      12-04-2019 01:15 PM #148
      I hate scotty Kilmer

      Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk
      2012 CTS-V Wagon 6MT w/ Recaro package - Stock. For now....
      2012 C63 AMG - P31/Eurocharged V5/Loaded option car -SOLD
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      Co-Founder Momentum Nutrition LLC
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      12-04-2019 03:08 PM #149
      Quote Originally Posted by CTK View Post
      ...I think China/Japan have long standing beef.
      That is quite an understatement considering the turbulent history between the two.

    26. Senior Member nm+'s Avatar
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      12-04-2019 03:20 PM #150
      Quote Originally Posted by CTK View Post
      I mean, there's value in that. What does a $65K M340i do that a $45K G70 3.3T doesn't, besides have the right badge? Plus the G20 looks like a Lexus from the back. I'd also argue that the Germans aren't exactly holding up to their promises. BMW has dialed back the sport significantly over the last decade across most of their lineup. There's nothing luxurious/stately about a CLA/GLA. Audi has been in design paralysis for a decade... you have to be a forensic scientist to tell the generations apart. All at a premium against the likes of Genesis & Lexus. What's the value proposition there?

      So while I agree that the luxury market is absolutely saturated, complacency and incompetence by the incumbents has presented some opportunity. What do Audi/BMW do that warrants the 20-40% premium they charge over Genesis? I don't think Genesis' dealer problems are worth five figure sums.
      Not having to deal with Hyundai service departments is a strong reason. Too many early Genesis buyers have been burned and are telling their friends horror stories. Hyundai should have made Genesis dealers their own thing like Lexus. This isn't about prices, it is about convenience, not ripping people off (lots of high end car people don't care that it is $50/hr, they care that they keep trying to upsell them on engine treatments), and honoring warranties without a hassle. Like my dad is in the market for a 5/E/GS type vehicle and won't touch Genesis because he's had friends with bad experiences. He doesn't want to find an indie shop. He wants to buy a car, have it not break very much, and and when he takes the car in for maintenance or repairs to be treated properly. He'd probably buy a GS350 if they weren't so ugly and still the same car they sold in 2012.
      He'd probably buy a Genesis g80 if it was serviced by the local Lexus, MBZ, or, weirdly, Infiniti (we have a good one here) dealer.
      Quote Originally Posted by Ducky TSX
      The Car Lounge likes to compare apples to llamas

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