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    Thread: Lexus hasn't made a profit in 2 years...

    1. Member DrewSXR's Avatar
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      09-09-2019 11:27 PM #101
      Quote Originally Posted by bzcat View Post
      Drop: IS, GS, RC, LC, GX
      I don't think that there is a need for the GS anymore considering how nice the new ES has turned out.

      I hope they don't drop the IS. They have a nice twin-turbo V6 they can put in the next gen version now.

      Their turbo-4 needs major a re-work though.

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      09-10-2019 12:39 AM #102
      Quote Originally Posted by DrewSXR View Post

      Their turbo-4 needs major a re-work though.
      Ditch it altogether. Nothing luxury about a 2.0T IMO. V6+ and Hybridization is the way to go. like someone said, standard across all models, make it another way to differentiate the brand and their vehicles.

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      09-10-2019 12:45 AM #103
      I like Johnny and all, but he completely full of **** saying Lexus isn’t profitable. Totally laughable.

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      09-10-2019 02:11 AM #104
      Quote Originally Posted by zmt2 View Post
      Ditch it altogether. Nothing luxury about a 2.0T IMO. V6+ and Hybridization is the way to go. like someone said, standard across all models, make it another way to differentiate the brand and their vehicles.
      I would relegate the 2.0 turbo to the lower TNGA platform cars. Doesn't do much for Lexus other than the NX.

    6. 09-10-2019 03:20 AM #105
      Quote Originally Posted by chrisj428 View Post
      Cadillac, like Lexus, seems to be trying to shoot for the luxurious sport segment - something others already do extremely well (and, as a result, have quite the lock on the segment).

      Lincoln, on the other hand, realized that what it does well is embrace unapologetic American Luxury combined with some serious grunt under the hood. The 2019 Aviator I've had the extreme privilege of putting nearly 5,000 miles on since May bears that out. In Comfort mode, the thing actually floats a little. But, put the hammer down and the 2.7 pulls (especially when you're feeding it Premium unleaded). They know their role and do it well.

      Lexus and Cadillac need to do some soul-searching and get back to what made them great in the first place.

      The thing is - the Aviator is sportier and more performance oriented than the XT6.



      Quote Originally Posted by The_Real_Stack View Post
      Can't speak to Caddy, but what made Lexus great is increasingly irrelevant.

      It used to be Lexus was a Mercedes that A) cost 60% of what a Mercedes cost and B) was super reliable, unlike the Mercedes.

      These days, MB prices have gone down and Lexus prices have gone up, and, increasingly, we are in a lease-only society so no one cares what the cost is, nor do they care about long term reliability. Plus, the Germans have gotten their act together, so at least for the first lease term, a MB is give or take as reliable as a Lexus anyways.


      Couple all that with the hideous Lexus grille and the fact that MB is moving styling and tech forward and Lexus is treading water, and lights out for Lexus.

      Wouldn't say that MB prices have gone down (aside from lowering the price of entry by finally offering sub-entry models like the CLA and A Class here), but rather for about the same price, MB or BMW will offer the badge-obsessed buyer a 4 cylinder for what Lexus charges for a 6 cylinder.

      And then from the other front, Genesis offers a V8 for the price of what Lexus charges for a V6 - so Lexus (when it comes to their RWD models) is getting hit from both sides.

      Case in point, last month, the 27 G90s were sold in Canada compared to 4 LS 500s.


      Quote Originally Posted by CTK View Post
      CP1 you keep speaking to these "complaints"

      "the criticism of Lexus is not having put forth the effort to keep their RWD sedan entries up to date and competitive."

      Again who is making these criticisms? ALL RWD sedans, new or old, are down in sales, so again what would Lexus gain in spending money to update them?

      "the Cadillac XT5 was the 2nd best selling lux model (after the RX), but don't think too many would consider the XT5 to be close to being a class/segment leader."

      So if you had to choose, would you rather a car be a profitable top seller, or a loss leading "class/segment leader"?

      "One of the biggest complaints has been the slow pace in updating powertrains."

      Again, from who!?!!?!? Surely not customers- BMW has the latest and greatest engines in the business, and their sedan sales have fallen like everyone elses. Giulia, G70, Stinger- all brand new, all down in sales within 2 years of their debuts. So what is the upside on having the latest and greatest platform/engine? Tangible upsides, not the respect of anonymous internet auto execs?

      Yes, sedan sales are down, but that doesn't mean that they still aren't worth the effort.

      YTD, MB has sold 68,482 of the C Class, E Class/CLS and S Class.

      That's still a significant #, even if MB sold 86,185 of the GLC, GLE and GLS (note, MB's CUV lineup is fresher).

      Plus, the rest of the world isn't as tilted towards CUVs/SUVs as the American market - so there are a good # of sedans being sold in Europe and Asia (where lux sedan sales still far outpace lux CUV/SUV sales).

      As for BMW, 3 Series sales was UP last month (the F30 was really getting long in the tooth) and when it comes to powertrains, M and (for MB) AMG sales are setting records.

      AMG sales have been going so gangbusters that in a # of markets worldwide, AMG has their own dedicated dealerships.

      In a declining sedan/coupe market (where there's still plenty of sales) - that's where the really high margins are (performance variants).

      Meanwhile Lexus F-models struggle to sell when even Cadillac's V-models sell out (and that's despite Lexus being the stronger brand).

      What I'm saying is nothing new - their common complaints by long-time (RWD) Lexus owners in Lexus forums.

      Now, the vast majority of FWD Lexus owners don't care, but they're not the type to purchase higher-end RWD models, much less performance variants.

      Think BMW and MB are pretty happy w/ the margins on the X5/X7 and GLE/GLS.

      Sure, they may not sell in quite the volume of the cheaper FWD CUVs, but the ATPs and margins are considerably higher.



      *****

      Don't know about the other automakers in Japan, but in Toyota City, Toyota has cut costs by hiring a lot of temp/contract workers.
      Last edited by CP1; 09-10-2019 at 03:58 AM.
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    7. 09-10-2019 03:51 AM #106
      Quote Originally Posted by DrewSXR View Post
      I don't think that there is a need for the GS anymore considering how nice the new ES has turned out.

      I hope they don't drop the IS. They have a nice twin-turbo V6 they can put in the next gen version now.

      Their turbo-4 needs major a re-work though.

      There's a TNGA-based (RWD) IS on the way, and the rumor is that the IS model after that may be based on Mazda's upcoming RWD platform.



      Quote Originally Posted by got-rice View Post
      I would relegate the 2.0 turbo to the lower TNGA platform cars. Doesn't do much for Lexus other than the NX.

      Not surprisingly, Toyota/Lexus went w/ lower boost to better ensure reliability, but the majority of the lux market leases and they don't care so much about long-term reliability.
      Why you wouldn’t (buy an Optima SX):

      Because you have your eyes on the Frigidaire Limited Edition Camry that you saw last weekend at the neighborhood Autoplex
      .
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      09-10-2019 07:16 AM #107
      Have to reply in post

      Quote Originally Posted by CP1 View Post
      Yes, sedan sales are down, but that doesn't mean that they still aren't worth the effort. We'll see

      YTD, MB has sold 68,482 of the C Class, E Class/CLS and S Class.

      That's still a significant #, even if MB sold 86,185 of the GLC, GLE and GLS (note, MB's CUV lineup is fresher). They are still down from about half of their peak.... how much money do you put in a shrinking sector? The decline is structural- IMO MB makes the best sedans in the business and they can't stave off the decline

      Plus, the rest of the world isn't as tilted towards CUVs/SUVs as the American market - so there are a good # of sedans being sold in Europe and Asia (where lux sedan sales still far outpace lux CUV/SUV sales). Asia sure, Europe, no... they might not be as crossover crazy as us but they are definitely shifting

      As for BMW, 3 Series sales was UP last month (the F30 was really getting long in the tooth) and when it comes to powertrains, M and (for MB) AMG sales are setting records. Still a looooooooooooong ways off from the ~15K or so they did when they were hot... and please post a breakout of AMG/M sales by year.

      AMG sales have been going so gangbusters that in a # of markets worldwide, AMG has their own dedicated dealerships.

      In a declining sedan/coupe market (where there's still plenty of sales) - that's where the really high margins are (performance variants). Sure, on a unit basis- but if the volume's not there what's the point? Plus there are still people who want un-performance sedans like the ES, which is part of why I think BMW has purposely lost its edge

      Meanwhile Lexus F-models struggle to sell when even Cadillac's V-models sell out (and that's despite Lexus being the stronger brand). Cadillac V models don't sell well

      What I'm saying is nothing new - their common complaints by long-time (RWD) Lexus owners in Lexus forums. Yes, people on the internet want the sun moon and stars for the price of a can of soda- that doesn't mean much. Hell on this forum there are like 3 people who openly **** on car companies for not building cars they would never buy in the first place. Be careful how much stock you put in what you hear on the internet

      Now, the vast majority of FWD Lexus owners don't care, but they're not the type to purchase higher-end RWD models, much less performance variants.

      Think BMW and MB are pretty happy w/ the margins on the X5/X7 and GLE/GLS.

      Sure, they may not sell in quite the volume of the cheaper FWD CUVs, but the ATPs and margins are considerably higher.
      It's not 1995.... Cadillac showed what happens when companies do things your way. They made the exact kind of RWD drivers' cars you proclaim will be a success... and they bombed spectacularly

      Lexus' problem isn't that the F sub brand isn't robust enough. Let's just be totally candid. In that space, brand matters, and even if Lexus made products that were its European rivals' equals, people would find some other reason to **** on them, just as they did when the LS made the Germans look bad. Plus again while F cars aren't as rip roaring as AMG/M stuff.... they are hardly bad and still deliver great value. There's also the fact that there's only so much demand for even performance sedans- again, see Cadillac, or if you want, Alfa- their sales are down and the incentives are stacked.

      So no, Lexus way forward isn't through more performance offerings and I'm amazed that as an industry insider you are still repeating this tripe. All they need to do is cut their lineup down, dumping a lot of the RWD products sadly, and focusing on what works. The ES, UX/NX/RX and maybe 2-3 RWD cars/SUVs. Truthfully, as much as I love F cars, it probably wouldn't hurt them to kill that brand off- enthusiasts are badge whores and will never give it a fair shake. We live in a time where the measure of a performance car are its bench racing specs, which just isn't what F is about, and I'd rather it not turn into another boring ass 500cc/cyl turbo modular engine AWD Euro compliance factory

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      09-10-2019 07:35 AM #108
      Quote Originally Posted by VigorousZX View Post
      History is very twisted... we can not take 'western' accounts as facts.

      That being said I believe Japan is still a shell state made to serve the western empire. Labour shortage or not, I think its a shortage of Japaneses who are not poor enough to work hard factory demands.
      You seem to want to make this all about politics or don't understand 50 yr olds don't make for good factory workers. Read some articles on Japan's population crisis. 30%+ of the country is 65 or older and soon 50%+ will be 50 and older. They have more people 65 and older than 0-14. Temporary car industry workers being brought in shouldn't surprise you or anyone.

      PM Abe is anti-immigration (as is the country in general), less than 2% of the country is foreign born and here's the death stamp for perm immigration, they hate muslims and their points-based immigration system has 2 mandates: a highly-skilled professional resume and the ability to speak Japanese. How many non-Japanese in the world would make that cut? Abe himself said he'd rather let the country suffer than to let immigration change Japan. It's their country and culture, they can do as they please.

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      09-10-2019 07:43 AM #109
      Quote Originally Posted by CP1 View Post
      Wouldn't say that MB prices have gone down (aside from lowering the price of entry by finally offering sub-entry models like the CLA and A Class here), but rather for about the same price, MB or BMW will offer the badge-obsessed buyer a 4 cylinder for what Lexus charges for a 6 cylinder.
      Of course you wouldn’t, but then, you’re a moron.

      Here’s a sticker for a 1992 300E. $45k. Go plug that into an inflation calculator. $83k.



      And then from the other front, Genesis
      No one buys your crappy Genesis and no one cares. Go away.

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      09-10-2019 08:26 AM #110
      Quote Originally Posted by The_Real_Stack View Post
      No one buys your crappy Genesis and no one cares. Go away.
      Huh? CP1 is just a regular old poster, and in no way an employee of Hyundai/Kia/Genesis. 1

      Credibility matters. With class leading power2 and torque3, a TORSEN™ limited slip differential and sport tuned suspension4, the Genesis G70 Sedan™ redefines what you should expect from your sport sedan.

      1- CP1 may or may not be an employee or contractor of Genesis' marketing subdivison posting in a promotional capacity.

      2,3,4 require sport package and 3.3T engine. Additional fees and option bundles may apply.

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      09-10-2019 12:38 PM #111
      Quote Originally Posted by CTK View Post
      Huh? CP1 is just a regular old poster, and in no way an employee of Hyundai/Kia/Genesis. 1

      Credibility matters. With class leading power2 and torque3, a TORSEN™ limited slip differential and sport tuned suspension4, the Genesis G70 Sedan™ redefines what you should expect from your sport sedan.

      1- CP1 may or may not be an employee or contractor of Genesis' marketing subdivison posting in a promotional capacity.

      2,3,4 require sport package and 3.3T engine. Additional fees and option bundles may apply.
      Ouch, you guys hurt . The G90 is a better luxury car than the LS500, Continental and CT6 and the G70 is better than just about everything in its class (as a total package). Having said that, you're right, Genesis sales are in the toilet and will be for a long time. They didn't do their homework about how to launch a "luxury" brand.

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      09-10-2019 01:05 PM #112
      Quote Originally Posted by tbvvw View Post
      You seem to want to make this all about politics or don't understand 50 yr olds don't make for good factory workers. Read some articles on Japan's population crisis. 30%+ of the country is 65 or older and soon 50%+ will be 50 and older. They have more people 65 and older than 0-14. Temporary car industry workers being brought in shouldn't surprise you or anyone.

      PM Abe is anti-immigration (as is the country in general), less than 2% of the country is foreign born and here's the death stamp for perm immigration, they hate muslims and their points-based immigration system has 2 mandates: a highly-skilled professional resume and the ability to speak Japanese. How many non-Japanese in the world would make that cut? Abe himself said he'd rather let the country suffer than to let immigration change Japan. It's their country and culture, they can do as they please.
      From personal experience, that's not really true.

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      09-10-2019 01:07 PM #113
      Quote Originally Posted by unhappymeal View Post
      Ouch, you guys hurt . The G90 is a better luxury car than the LS500, Continental and CT6 and the G70 is better than just about everything in its class (as a total package). Having said that, you're right, Genesis sales are in the toilet and will be for a long time. They didn't do their homework about how to launch a "luxury" brand.
      Genesis makes the right vehicles for markets that damn near don't exist. They are great for people like us, but how many people like us are there? Not enough to support a car brand. It blows my mind that they have been in play for over a decade and still don't have a crossover. And they don't seem to be in any rush to get one out. By the time the GVs come to market we'll probably be in a global recession So CP1 telling us what matters to consumers is pure comedy. If Hyundai knew what American luxury buyers wanted Genesis would not be a complete disaster in product planning and overall operation.

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      09-10-2019 01:22 PM #114
      Quote Originally Posted by CTK View Post
      Genesis makes the right vehicles for markets that damn near don't exist. They are great for people like us, but how many people like us are there? Not enough to support a car brand. It blows my mind that they have been in play for over a decade and still don't have a crossover. And they don't seem to be in any rush to get one out. By the time the GVs come to market we'll probably be in a global recession So CP1 telling us what matters to consumers is pure comedy. If Hyundai knew what American luxury buyers wanted Genesis would not be a complete disaster in product planning and overall operation.
      At the end of the day, 3 (used to be 4, Lexus) carmakers have consistent luxury car sales, the big German Three (traditional luxury cars, I'm not counting Porsches and Range Rovers and such).

      Others have tried and consistently failed. And then Hyundai, known to be a bargain-basement brand, comes along and tries to sell luxury cars (which sell mostly DESPITE their extremely poor value proposition) on the value proposition. The market just isn't receptive to that. It's like a steakhouse trying to make their salads their competitive advantage; that's not why anyone goes to a steakhouse. You might get a few fringe nerds who want to "fly under the radar" (read: they are cheap) and you get some nationalistic Koreans, but other than that, people don't generally spend extravagantly on luxury sedans to hide the fact that they spent extravagantly. Just not how it works.
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    16. 09-10-2019 01:22 PM #115
      Quote Originally Posted by tbvvw View Post
      You seem to want to make this all about politics or don't understand 50 yr olds don't make for good factory workers. Read some articles on Japan's population crisis. 30%+ of the country is 65 or older and soon 50%+ will be 50 and older. They have more people 65 and older than 0-14. Temporary car industry workers being brought in shouldn't surprise you or anyone.
      This is a lie... Japanese youth come to Vancouver as foreign workers and serve our people in grocery stores and coffee shops... why not work at a car factory, make good money and start a family in Japan?... its because the Japanese have the same kind of slave wage economy as other western countries in a cycle of massive debt with no hope.

      Quote Originally Posted by tbvvw View Post
      PM Abe is anti-immigration (as is the country in general), less than 2% of the country is foreign born and here's the death stamp for perm immigration, they hate muslims and their points-based immigration system has 2 mandates: a highly-skilled professional resume and the ability to speak Japanese. How many non-Japanese in the world would make that cut? Abe himself said he'd rather let the country suffer than to let immigration change Japan. It's their country and culture, they can do as they please.
      Japan is a puppet nation... its part of the Anglo empire that exploits people. Abe is a nobody.
      Some decades back the empire started dumping government subsidized USA corn into Mexico which devastated millions of farmers and jacked up the economy... where now poor mexican people (which still live in oppression of the empires narco terrorist) have nothing going for them other then the empires new car factory jobs... Toyota being one of them.
      Does Japan hate Mexicans... at face value, yes!

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      Last edited by VigorousZX; 09-10-2019 at 01:25 PM.
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      09-10-2019 01:23 PM #116
      I'm really confused on all this talk about Japan's demographics. It's relevant only to a point. And that point is the fact that Toyota is a highly globalized company.

      The two main activities for bringing models to market are design and manufacturing (we'll ignore sales since that's obviously localized).

      In regards to design, Toyota has a huge R&D center in SE Michigan. They've been doing automotive engineering in the US for 40 years. So, they have additional resources outside of Japan that they can scale.

      In regards to production, again it's not like every model is produced in Japan. The RX350 is built in Ontario and the ES350 in Georgetown, KY. On top of that, general automotive mfg employment has declined over the years as automation decreases the needs for workers.
      =

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      09-10-2019 01:27 PM #117
      Quote Originally Posted by VigorousZX View Post
      This is a lie... Japanese youth come to Vancouver as foreign workers and serve our people in grocery stores and coffee shops... why not work at a car factory, make good money and start a family in Japan?... its because the Japanese have the same kind of slave wage economy as other western countries in a cycle of massive debt with no hope.

      Japan is a puppet nation... its part of the Anglo empire that exploits people. Abe is a nobody.
      Some decades back the empire started dumping government subsidized USA corn into Mexico which devastated millions of farmers and jacked up the economy... where now poor mexican people (which still live in oppression of the empires narco terrorist) have nothing going for them other then the empires new car factory jobs... Toyota being one of them.
      Does Japan hate Mexicans... at face value, yes!

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      09-10-2019 01:50 PM #118
      Quote Originally Posted by The_Real_Stack View Post
      At the end of the day, 3 (used to be 4, Lexus) carmakers have consistent luxury car sales, the big German Three (traditional luxury cars, I'm not counting Porsches and Range Rovers and such).

      Others have tried and consistently failed. And then Hyundai, known to be a bargain-basement brand, comes along and tries to sell luxury cars (which sell mostly DESPITE their extremely poor value proposition) on the value proposition. The market just isn't receptive to that. It's like a steakhouse trying to make their salads their competitive advantage; that's not why anyone goes to a steakhouse. You might get a few fringe nerds who want to "fly under the radar" (read: they are cheap) and you get some nationalistic Koreans, but other than that, people don't generally spend extravagantly on luxury sedans to hide the fact that they spent extravagantly. Just not how it works.
      I have mixed feels on this.

      The value play is not bad in the luxury space... but there has to be actual value. Lexus was the value play at one point. The LS400 flat out embarrassed the German offerings at half the price. Thing is, there was legit value in that, because there was demand for it. Lexus had no brand equity just like Genesis doesn't... but they established it quickly with excellent cars and an excellent + strategic dealership network and experience.

      I think it's unfair to throw Genesis cars under the bus. They are really good and probably as much of a value as that LS400 was 30 years ago. I was shocked to learn that a G70 costs the same as a loaded TLX with the same options, despite having a significantly better powertrain. The problem is the complete misread of the market, and the abysmal execution. I think if Genesis had spent the last decade selling 3 equally excellent crossovers and building their dealership network out we'd be having a completely different conversation.

      Brand def plays a part... I'm gonna go on record and say the F30 just isn't very good for what they charge for it and def leaned on brand and lease subsidies to sell. But a lot of the reasons companies failed when coming at the Germans was just incompetence. Cadillac's 2012 rebrand was another huge misread- I and many others predicted that the whole thing would bomb. Jaguar half assed a lot and basically sabotaged the XE. We already talked about Genesis. And frankly the Germans themselves were moving away from the outdated targets the newcomers were shooting at. Cadillac was benchmarking an E46 at the same time BMW was gearing up for the i3/i8 So you're not wrong but I think it's a little more complicated

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      09-10-2019 01:54 PM #119
      Quote Originally Posted by DrewSXR View Post
      I don't think that there is a need for the GS anymore considering how nice the new ES has turned out.

      I hope they don't drop the IS. They have a nice twin-turbo V6 they can put in the next gen version now.

      Their turbo-4 needs major a re-work though.
      I would prefer they drop the IS and keep the GS. GS is only like 150lb more than the IS but so much more roomy and refined. Would work just as well with that TT V6

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      09-10-2019 02:07 PM #120
      Quote Originally Posted by CTK View Post
      I have mixed feels on this.

      The value play is not bad in the luxury space... but there has to be actual value. Lexus was the value play at one point. The LS400 flat out embarrassed the German offerings at half the price. Thing is, there was legit value in that, because there was demand for it. Lexus had no brand equity just like Genesis doesn't... but they established it quickly with excellent cars and an excellent + strategic dealership network and experience.

      I think it's unfair to throw Genesis cars under the bus. They are really good and probably as much of a value as that LS400 was 30 years ago. I was shocked to learn that a G70 costs the same as a loaded TLX with the same options, despite having a significantly better powertrain. The problem is the complete misread of the market, and the abysmal execution. I think if Genesis had spent the last decade selling 3 equally excellent crossovers and building their dealership network out we'd be having a completely different conversation.

      Brand def plays a part... I'm gonna go on record and say the F30 just isn't very good for what they charge for it and def leaned on brand and lease subsidies to sell. But a lot of the reasons companies failed when coming at the Germans was just incompetence. Cadillac's 2012 rebrand was another huge misread- I and many others predicted that the whole thing would bomb. Jaguar half assed a lot and basically sabotaged the XE. We already talked about Genesis. And frankly the Germans themselves were moving away from the outdated targets the newcomers were shooting at. Cadillac was benchmarking an E46 at the same time BMW was gearing up for the i3/i8 So you're not wrong but I think it's a little more complicated
      You forgot the Italians.

    22. Member The_Real_Stack's Avatar
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      09-10-2019 02:22 PM #121
      Quote Originally Posted by CTK View Post
      I have mixed feels on this.

      The value play is not bad in the luxury space... but there has to be actual value. Lexus was the value play at one point. The LS400 flat out embarrassed the German offerings at half the price. Thing is, there was legit value in that, because there was demand for it. Lexus had no brand equity just like Genesis doesn't... but they established it quickly with excellent cars and an excellent + strategic dealership network and experience.

      I think it's unfair to throw Genesis cars under the bus. They are really good and probably as much of a value as that LS400 was 30 years ago.
      Lexus was a value play but that's not what they sold on. They didn't market themselves as "WE'RE A CHEAP MERCEDES!!!" like Hyundai does. Lexus marketed themselves as "We pursue absolute perfection in our vehicles" and they quietly priced their cars less expensively. Hyundai just showed up and yelled "HAI GUYZ WHO WANTS A CHEAP LUXURY CAR WITH LOTS OF **** IN IT????"
      Quote Originally Posted by Volkl View Post
      My wife wanted a SUV with a manual transmission. I suggested a Wrangler, she said no way, too masculine

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      09-10-2019 02:40 PM #122
      Quote Originally Posted by VigorousZX View Post
      This is a lie... Japanese youth come to Vancouver as foreign workers and serve our people in grocery stores and coffee shops... why not work at a car factory, make good money and start a family in Japan?... its because the Japanese have the same kind of slave wage economy as other western countries in a cycle of massive debt with no hope.
      Don't we (TCL) have a few Japan-dwelling members who've reported on life in Japan?

      I recall told a similar story except you are viewing things from the wrong perspective. Japan (per poster) pays young/new workers mediocre wages because Japan is a respect seniority society. Making more money is reserved for senior employees.

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      09-10-2019 02:42 PM #123
      Quote Originally Posted by DUBPL8 View Post
      What drugs are you on man?
      He's not too far off about the second part.

      https://money.cnn.com/2017/02/09/new...obs/index.html

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      09-10-2019 02:55 PM #124
      Quote Originally Posted by The_Real_Stack View Post
      Lexus was a value play but that's not what they sold on. They didn't market themselves as "WE'RE A CHEAP MERCEDES!!!" like Hyundai does. Lexus marketed themselves as "We pursue absolute perfection in our vehicles" and they quietly priced their cars less expensively. Hyundai just showed up and yelled "HAI GUYZ WHO WANTS A CHEAP LUXURY CAR WITH LOTS OF **** IN IT????"
      I don't have cable, so I don't know what kind of marketing Genesis has done, but I doubt it was this silly. In fact, I'd wager Genesis did little if any marketing at all. I mean if they marketed their cars, where would you go to buy them?

      Back when Lexus was establishing itself marketing was a lot simpler. People actually valued what magazines had to say for example. All you needed were some TV & newspaper slots. Granted the product itself was excellent, but Lexus also had less noise and a more captive audience to project its message to. Not making excuses for Genesis' abysmal execution but it is a different time.

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      09-10-2019 03:02 PM #125
      Quote Originally Posted by CTK View Post
      I don't have cable, so I don't know what kind of marketing Genesis has done, but I doubt it was this silly. In fact, I'd wager Genesis did little if any marketing at all. I mean if they marketed their cars, where would you go to buy them?

      Back when Lexus was establishing itself marketing was a lot simpler. People actually valued what magazines had to say for example. All you needed were some TV & newspaper slots. Granted the product itself was excellent, but Lexus also had less noise and a more captive audience to project its message to. Not making excuses for Genesis' abysmal execution but it is a different time.
      I'm not talking about the advertising itself, I'm talking about the position in the market. What does Genesis bring to the market that isn't already there? Just a low price, and generic looks. BMW is sporty, MB is luxury/stately, Audi is styling, Lexus is reliable, Genesis is...cheap.
      Quote Originally Posted by Volkl View Post
      My wife wanted a SUV with a manual transmission. I suggested a Wrangler, she said no way, too masculine

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