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    Thread: The Porsche 911 isn’t as exciting as you think — The Carmudgeon Show w/ Jason Cammisa— Ep. 2

    1. Member andlf's Avatar
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      11-08-2019 08:44 PM #1
      Every classic-car event is overrun with air-cooled Porsche 911s. There are reasons why — the 911 is great to drive, robust, and reliable — but should misery be part of the old-car ownership experience? Is buying an aircooled 911 the obvious choice, or is it the lazy one?

      The Carmudgeon Show is a comedic, information-filled 25-minute conversation with Jason Cammisa and Derek Tam-Scott, two car enthusiasts who are curmudgeonly beyond their years. Proving you don’t have to be old to be grumpy, they spend each episode talking about what’s wrong with various parts of the automotive universe. Despite their best efforts to keep it negative, they usually wind up laughing, happy, and extolling their love for cars. Which just makes them angrier and more bitter.

      Jason Cammisa is an automotive journalist, social-media figure, and TV host with over 250 million views on YouTube alone. Jason’s deeply technical understanding, made possible by a lifelong obsession with cars, allows him to fully digest what’s going on within an automobile — and then put it into simple terms for others to understand. Also, a Master’s Degree in Law trained him to be impossible to argue with.

      Derek Tam-Scott still tries. He’s a young automotive expert with old-man taste in cars, and a Master’s Degree in Civil Engineering — which means he knows how to be civil to Jason. Or at least he tries. With a decade and a half’s experience buying, selling, driving and brokering classic and exotic cars, he’s experienced the world’s most iconic cars. And hated most of them.


      Well, I like 911s so....

      Carz: allpic My 3 C's- Challenger, Camaro & Corrado -*Dusk Edition SS-*Group-*Challenger RT
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    3. Don't be me. Don't be a 'Rick' Cabin Pics's Avatar
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      11-08-2019 09:56 PM #2
      I love this new show Jason is doing, and I thought this episode was great as well.

      Valid points for everything, catchy title to get people pissed off enough to watch.
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      11-08-2019 10:32 PM #3
      Entertaining, that's for sure.
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      11-09-2019 11:42 AM #4
      It's weird that I literally just read this article:

      https://motoiq.com/i-hate-car-people/

      Jason Cammissa has more cred than the average car journo/guy, and is a nice dude, but is ultimately part of the problem rather than the solution. His whole brand is clickbait and whining, which is a shame as he's one of the few car guys who can actually talk about other things. Not going to reward that with a click... the first episode was bad enough (the V6 is fine, great even- much better than the turbo 4s coming for us all)

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      11-09-2019 11:54 AM #5
      Quote Originally Posted by CTK View Post
      It's weird that I literally just read this article:

      https://motoiq.com/i-hate-car-people/

      Jason Cammissa has more cred than the average car journo/guy, and is a nice dude, but is ultimately part of the problem rather than the solution. His whole brand is clickbait and whining, which is a shame as he's one of the few car guys who can actually talk about other things. Not going to reward that with a click... the first episode was bad enough (the V6 is fine, great even- much better than the turbo 4s coming for us all)
      Good.

      Then why are you in this thread?
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      11-09-2019 12:25 PM #6
      I Hate Car People
      BY JOHN SMALLBERRIES
      ...does this need explaining?
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      11-09-2019 12:31 PM #7
      Quote Originally Posted by Cabin Pics View Post
      Good.

      Then why are you in this thread?
      It's an open forum and I wanted to reply

    9. Member whalemingo's Avatar
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      11-09-2019 12:43 PM #8
      Quote Originally Posted by CTK View Post
      It's weird that I literally just read this article:

      https://motoiq.com/i-hate-car-people/

      Jason Cammissa has more cred than the average car journo/guy, and is a nice dude, but is ultimately part of the problem rather than the solution. His whole brand is clickbait and whining, which is a shame as he's one of the few car guys who can actually talk about other things. Not going to reward that with a click... the first episode was bad enough (the V6 is fine, great even- much better than the turbo 4s coming for us all)
      What do you disagree with in that article? That is everything that is wrong with the car culture now. Maybe you're part of the problem? My bet is yes considering some of your past posts. He's not wrong about any of that. The reason I stopped going to places like cars and coffee is exactly that, people ruined it. Everyone has to know everything all the time or they somehow feel like they might be less. Then you get **** like the Supra thread in here. People **** all over it. That car is ****ing great and everyone that drives it falls all over themselves. The B58 is a great motor and Toyota has always had a way of tuning chassis.

      Turbo 4's vs NA 6's? I'm undecided on this still, both offer stre ngths and weaknesses. I have a 2016 E350 and it's a great cruiser. Perfect for commuting duty and it's not too bad in the power area. But it's getting some work done on it right now and I have a 2020 E350 as a loaner. It has the turbo 4 and the car feels faster. Not sure if it is because turbo torque can be deceiving but I wouldn't pass the car up because it isn't a 6. Let's not even get into the manual vs. auto thing. There is hate there just for the sake of hate. People somehow think that being a true enthusiast means holding onto the past and not embracing the future of cars. The past is just that, the past. It belongs in the past and should be revered. I have old cars and I have new cars. All have something great to offer. I personally think people like you are the problem.
      All Hail Andy?

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      11-09-2019 12:44 PM #9
      Quote Originally Posted by CTK View Post
      Jason Cammissa has more cred than the average car journo/guy, and is a nice dude, but is ultimately part of the problem rather than the solution. His whole brand is clickbait and whining, which is a shame as he's one of the few car guys who can actually talk about other things. Not going to reward that with a click... the first episode was bad enough (the V6 is fine, great even- much better than the turbo 4s coming for us all)
      Can you elaborate on how I'm more of the problem?

      You say "clickbait and whining," I say "I'm just calling it like it is."

      And no, the V6s aren't better than the turbo 4s. Turbo plumbing on V6s is a nightmare — you either go with a hot-V or you have too long of runners or have to go twin, which defies the trends of most manufacturers, who are finding a single, larger turbo actually responds more quickly. You can't do a hot-V with a 60º V6, so that leaves you with a 90º, which is unbalanced and requires both split-pin crankshaft and balance shafts... which just adds to reciprocating mass, slowing it all down anyway. And then, there's the sound quality.

      There's a reason BMW stuck with the straight-six all these years —*and why JLR and Mercedes-Benz are returning to it. The V-6 was a packaging compromise with on the wrong side of the spreadsheet.

      But of course, I'm all whining and clickbait.

      Lemme one-up your post on hating car guys:



      If you're going to hate, hate equally.
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      11-09-2019 12:53 PM #10
      Hahahahahahahahaha...

      Hahahahahahahahaha...

      So CTK now you can talk directly to the author. Let him know how you really feel. Hahahahahahahaha....
      All Hail Andy?

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      11-09-2019 12:53 PM #11
      Quote Originally Posted by 2ManyCars View Post
      Can you elaborate on how I'm more of the problem?

      You say "clickbait and whining," I say "I'm just calling it like it is."

      And no, the V6s aren't better than the turbo 4s. Turbo plumbing on V6s is a nightmare — you either go with a hot-V or you have too long of runners or have to go twin, which defies the trends of most manufacturers, who are finding a single, larger turbo actually responds more quickly. You can't do a hot-V with a 60º V6, so that leaves you with a 90º, which is unbalanced and requires both split-pin crankshaft and balance shafts... which just adds to reciprocating mass, slowing it all down anyway. And then, there's the sound quality.

      There's a reason BMW stuck with the straight-six all these years —*and why JLR and Mercedes-Benz are returning to it. The V-6 was a packaging compromise with on the wrong side of the spreadsheet.

      But of course, I'm all whining and clickbait.

      Lemme one-up your post on hating car guys:



      If you're going to hate, hate equally.
      But how do you feel about crepes?
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    13. Member whalemingo's Avatar
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      11-09-2019 12:57 PM #12
      Quote Originally Posted by Cabin Pics View Post
      But how do you feel about crepes?
      Everyone knows crepes are warm up pancakes. Dang magic is what they is. Put a little grape jelly and powdered sugar on there and you have the start of every great morning.
      All Hail Andy?

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      11-09-2019 01:00 PM #13
      Quote Originally Posted by whalemingo View Post
      Everyone knows crepes are warm up pancakes. Dang magic is what they is. Put a little grape jelly and powdered sugar on there and you have the start of every great morning.
      You lost me at grape. Dead to me.
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      11-09-2019 01:03 PM #14
      Quote Originally Posted by Cabin Pics View Post
      You lost me at grape. Dead to me.



      And Jason... I don't think you're going to get your answer.
      All Hail Andy?

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      11-09-2019 01:07 PM #15
      Quote Originally Posted by 2ManyCars View Post
      Can you elaborate on how I'm more of the problem?

      You say "clickbait and whining," I say "I'm just calling it like it is."

      And no, the V6s aren't better than the turbo 4s. Turbo plumbing on V6s is a nightmare — you either go with a hot-V or you have too long of runners or have to go twin, which defies the trends of most manufacturers, who are finding a single, larger turbo actually responds more quickly. You can't do a hot-V with a 60º V6, so that leaves you with a 90º, which is unbalanced and requires both split-pin crankshaft and balance shafts... which just adds to reciprocating mass, slowing it all down anyway. And then, there's the sound quality.

      There's a reason BMW stuck with the straight-six all these years —*and why JLR and Mercedes-Benz are returning to it. The V-6 was a packaging compromise with on the wrong side of the spreadsheet.

      But of course, I'm all whining and clickbait.

      Lemme one-up your post on hating car guys:



      If you're going to hate, hate equally.
      Jason, I feel I can call you Jason, because I follow you on IG - I would normally say this guy isn’t worth the keystrokes, but thank you for this post.

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      11-09-2019 01:08 PM #16
      Quote Originally Posted by whalemingo View Post



      And Jason... I don't think you're going to get your answer.
      The answer is 4’s and I6’s are better than the v6, period. They sound better, rev better, are more compact, and if we’re working on our own cars - easier to work on.

      I’d rather have a V8, skip the V6, it has no place in this world. Nissan fans can take them with them to the grave.
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      11-09-2019 01:09 PM #17
      Quote Originally Posted by Pizza Cat!!!! View Post

      A sad guy that’s about an hour away from selling his Chevy SS.
      what? why?

      you'll probably regret it.
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      11-09-2019 01:11 PM #18
      Quote Originally Posted by Cabin Pics View Post
      The answer is 4’s and I6’s are better than the v6, period. They sound better, rev better, are more compact, and if we’re working on our own cars - easier to work on.

      I’d rather have a V8, skip the V6, it has no place in this world. Nissan fans can take them with them to the grave.
      I would agree with the I6 being better than the V6. They run smoother and easier to do stuff with. I also don't mind turbo 4's.
      All Hail Andy?

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      11-09-2019 01:12 PM #19
      Quote Originally Posted by CTK View Post
      It's weird that I literally just read this article:

      https://motoiq.com/i-hate-car-people/

      Jason Cammissa has more cred than the average car journo/guy, and is a nice dude, but is ultimately part of the problem rather than the solution. His whole brand is clickbait and whining, which is a shame as he's one of the few car guys who can actually talk about other things. Not going to reward that with a click... the first episode was bad enough (the V6 is fine, great even- much better than the turbo 4s coming for us all)
      Quote Originally Posted by 2ManyCars View Post
      Can you elaborate on how I'm more of the problem?

      You say "clickbait and whining," I say "I'm just calling it like it is."

      And no, the V6s aren't better than the turbo 4s. Turbo plumbing on V6s is a nightmare — you either go with a hot-V or you have too long of runners or have to go twin, which defies the trends of most manufacturers, who are finding a single, larger turbo actually responds more quickly. You can't do a hot-V with a 60º V6, so that leaves you with a 90º, which is unbalanced and requires both split-pin crankshaft and balance shafts... which just adds to reciprocating mass, slowing it all down anyway. And then, there's the sound quality.

      There's a reason BMW stuck with the straight-six all these years —*and why JLR and Mercedes-Benz are returning to it. The V-6 was a packaging compromise with on the wrong side of the spreadsheet.

      But of course, I'm all whining and clickbait.

      Lemme one-up your post on hating car guys:



      If you're going to hate, hate equally.
      "Of course that's just my opinion; I could be wrong."

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      11-09-2019 01:32 PM #20
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      11-09-2019 01:34 PM #21
      I’d also like to add that I love 911’s, but it is refreshing to see something besides 911’s at car shows from time to time.
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      11-09-2019 01:50 PM #22
      Quote Originally Posted by Cabin Pics View Post
      I’d also like to add that I love 911’s, but it is refreshing to see something besides 911’s at car shows from time to time.
      Right — this is the problem when you live in CA (can't speak to the rest of the country.) I love 911s, too. They're among the best overall classic cars to own, period.

      And that's exactly why every Cars + Coffee, rally, show, club meet is 50% 911s. We have some serious issues out here — like, people have started boycotting Concours on the Avenue in Carmel, calling it 'Porsches on the Avenue' because HALF the cars last year were 911s. Applications for things like the Coastal Range Rally and Radwood can be 75% Porsche, so the organizers have to consciously deny them.

      So there's a conundrum. Since it's basically the best *car* should you own one? Or should you own something that's a bad *car* but is maybe a little more... compromised/crappy/fringey to have a better experience?

      Genuine question. That's what Derek and I discuss in this episode.

      My Scirocco has been the most involving, most rewarding, most frustrating car I've owned. Would I love it as much if it wasn't frustrating and everyone else had one? Not so sure.
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      11-09-2019 01:58 PM #23
      Quote Originally Posted by 2ManyCars View Post
      Right — this is the problem when you live in CA (can't speak to the rest of the country.) I love 911s, too. They're among the best overall classic cars to own, period.

      And that's exactly why every Cars + Coffee, rally, show, club meet is 50% 911s. We have some serious issues out here — like, people have started boycotting Concours on the Avenue in Carmel, calling it 'Porsches on the Avenue' because HALF the cars last year were 911s. Applications for things like the Coastal Range Rally and Radwood can be 75% Porsche, so the organizers have to consciously deny them.

      So there's a conundrum. Since it's basically the best *car* should you own one? Or should you own something that's a bad *car* but is maybe a little more... compromised/crappy/fringey to have a better experience?

      Genuine question. That's what Derek and I discuss in this episode.

      My Scirocco has been the most involving, most rewarding, most frustrating car I've owned. Would I love it as much if it wasn't frustrating and everyone else had one? Not so sure.
      What you state with your Scirocco is what long term ownership and true love is all about. Without that frustration you never get the reward of working through it, driving a car that weeks ago made you want to punt babies is a fantastic feeling.

      I think one of the reasons we see so many 911’s is because many people can’t afford more than one enthusiast car. There’s the daily, then you get one toy. One thing to do all the things of every car you love. It needs to be just old enough to be special, but still drive great, finicky but not leaving you stranded *all* the time and most importantly, because car guys are *******s by nature - it has to seem cool to normal people. The 911 does all this and then some, so it’s the default “I’ve made it, I can afford a toy” car for enthusiasts.
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      11-09-2019 02:22 PM #24
      Quote Originally Posted by 2ManyCars View Post

      My Scirocco has been the most involving, most rewarding, most frustrating car I've owned. Would I love it as much if it wasn't frustrating and everyone else had one? Not so sure.
      First of all, I love you.

      Second of all, I loved your R&T article from years ago about how you keep hte Scirocco in the garage while the new, exotic, test cars sat in the driveway in the elements.

      Third of all, we need to have a Scirocco meet sometime so we can Scirocco together. Because I feel the same way you do about yours towards mine.


      Kthxbai
      Last edited by Smooremin; 11-09-2019 at 02:25 PM.
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      11-09-2019 02:29 PM #25
      Well I woke up in a fantastically good mood, and this thread made my morning even better.
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